Helping the Poor

[LBC]

We all have a great compassion for Susan and her financial concerns. Most (if not all) of us have had or are having similar struggles and recognize the toll they extract. Along with Rev. Lurch, I am confused. Of course, that is normal with me.

[pastor janel in nd]

First, Susan -- if I were there I'd take those people aside and have a talk with them! How RUDE and INSULTING! They KNOW your situation. They KNOW you. How COULD they! And more importantly WHERE IS GOD IN THAT?!!

Second, I get the concern, really I do, but if we are going to get into who "deserves" our help and who is taking advantage of us and on and on and on, we might as well close the doors and bolt them with a big, heavy lock. Does someone have to "deserve" to be loved? What happened to agape love? Unconditional love? And just what happens if someone is chronically taking advantage of churches? If we are not willing to take them under our wing and give them a hand up, then I just don't see how we can deny them the hand out. We all talk big and use that "teach a man to fish" verbage, but how many of our churches actually have a ministry that does "teach our people to fish"? Is this our way of rationalizing the weeding out of those we don't like helping because they're lazy or creepy or rude???

I am sure glad Jesus doesn't treat US this way -- "You know, I've got to stop forgiving these people because if I keep giving and giving and giving, they'll never learn to do it the right way. I think I just need to decide which I will love and which just plain don't deserve it because they're NEVER going to get it right anyway."

I can only speak for myself....as long as God is providing me with more than I need, I am willing to give to ANYONE who doesn't have what they need and/or the mental/physical ability/desire to get it.

[salsa]

Yeah; I get that, Janel. And that's what puts me on the fence and creates angst in me.

If I keep giving and giving to one family, there will be other families whose needs are left un-met, as we only have so much in our discretionary fund.

I'm not talking specifically about creating dependency necessarily. I think my angst is about what to do when our helping isn't really helpful. It's like the time a homeless man asked me for money and I had a 2-for-one coupon for a Big Mac. I gave him the extra Big Mac (there is a McDonald's next to the hospital where I did my residency and we'd occasionally go there for lunch instead of the cafeteria) and bought the fries and a Coke. I know that's not going to solve world hunger, but one man got fed. Still, it didn't really "help" his situation. It helped for a meal, but his situation remains the same.

[Deke in TX]

I have been following this thread and the one thing that I noticed is an absence of prayer on the part of the giving hand. Strict protocols as evidently in place at Susan's church don't allow for discernment and the movement of the Holy Spirit to guide the church. It is often argued that the church must be good stewards of the money entrusted to them but is there danger of being placed on the left?

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
Mat 25:44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
Mat 25:45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
Mat 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

[revlurch]

I have been following this thread and the one thing that I noticed is an absence of prayer on the part of the giving hand. Strict protocols as evidently in place at Susan's church don't allow for discernment and the movement of the Holy Spirit to guide the church. It is often argued that the church must be good stewards of the money entrusted to them but is there danger of being placed on the left?

I am flabbergasted that no one can see how the Deacons of the church could have right motives in this case. Susan may be an honest person and all that but when someone comes to me and says, "I just need to replenish my account" all kinds of warning bells go off in my head--no matter how well I know that person. There are numerous cases just in my own county of "trusted" people who took advantage of trusting governing boards to steal thousands of dollars. I also have most of my bills directly taken from my account. However, I can also show those future bills very easily with a few clicks of a mouse. In looking for help with future bills I could very easily show what needs to be paid and then go from there. I can't see reimbursing for past expenses paid. There is too much opportunity for fraud in that case, not to mention the fact that if the church just gives you money to replenish your account isn't that income for tax purposes? Have you set yourself and your church up for tax fraud?

[Susan in Ca.]

Whatever, Lurch. I still say that when they know the person, that person has the receipts of what was paid out, and that person isn't even asking for the full amount of the receipts, that they should know they are not being swindled. My problem with the policy and the attitude behind the policy is it is immediately communicating a culture of suspicion, instead of an attitude of compassion for the poor, or the person in need. It is making a prior judgment about that person that they are dishonest, and it is also quite paternalistic. Needing to make the payments for them, directly to the Dr's office or utility or wherever it might be, assumes that the person is going to go gambling with the money instead of making the payment directly to where it is due, and it also abuses the person's privacy, in announcing to wherever that check is being sent, that this person couldn't do it on their own. A culture of suspicion, that is then spread even farther than the deacon board, but out into the community, and done so by the church. I have deep problems with the whole approach, and do not believe it is the scriptural approach that we are to take. "Whenever you do this for the least of these, my brethren, you do it unto me." Is this how we would treat Jesus?

Susan

[pastor janel in nd]

Susan is not employed by the church and what she was asking for could not be considered income anyway. She was asking for a gift -- for assistance. I have never asked for a receipt when I have given someone a gift or answered a call for help.

I still side with the idea of giving from our means with no strings attached -- unconditional helping. I've been in a church that clung to its money and had so many rules and conditions and protocols nobody EVER dared to ask for help, even those who were in desperate need, which is sad because this church had the means to give it. We can't be the conscience of others -- if we would simply look at our own hearts and give of our own need to GIVE, I am guessing the theieves would have only a minimal share of what we would offer.

What kind of fast are we living? Our own kind, or God's kind??

[Deke in TX]

Thank you, janel, for a breath of fresh air out of the north.

[Susan in Ca.]

Yes, Thank you, Janel.

Susan

[salsa]

Haven't been here for a couple days.

Ditto what Janel said. Hit the nail on the head - and much more articulately than I would have been able to.

What Susan describes is not about stewardship or someone abusing the system. It's about an ungracious response to a sister in need.