Date: 1/21/2004
Time: 8:31:01 AM
The gospel text smacks of a contrast between Jesus' gracious words (and the people's appreciation!) AND the tough truth (and the people are suddenly enraged and ready to stone him!). Somehow this "love" chapter always gets the spin that it's about: being nice; biting one's tongue; reserving words that might offend until one's own spirit is in the right place; pursuing patience, tolerance, longsuffering.... BUT there's another orbit to the spin: "tough love"; "speaking the truth in love"; "rejoicing enough in the Truth and Goodness to confront things that need confronting".
Here's where the church could use some good training so that "love" can be known and claimed in forums where the truth is BOTH something that builds up and empowers AND brutal enough to nudge us toward places of healing and hope when we're headed off in other directions. The gosepel has always had a particular "sting" to it -if it's been preached well- How do I find my place of integrety between honouring and dignifying people and naming the truths which are sometimes very far from honour and dignity???
Perry in Kitchener Waterloo
Date: 1/21/2004
Time: 8:31:16 AM
The gospel text smacks of a contrast between Jesus' gracious words (and the people's appreciation!) AND the tough truth (and the people are suddenly enraged and ready to stone him!). Somehow this "love" chapter always gets the spin that it's about: being nice; biting one's tongue; reserving words that might offend until one's own spirit is in the right place; pursuing patience, tolerance, longsuffering.... BUT there's another orbit to the spin: "tough love"; "speaking the truth in love"; "rejoicing enough in the Truth and Goodness to confront things that need confronting".
Here's where the church could use some good training so that "love" can be known and claimed in forums where the truth is BOTH something that builds up and empowers AND brutal enough to nudge us toward places of healing and hope when we're headed off in other directions. The gosepel has always had a particular "sting" to it -if it's been preached well- How do I find my place of integrety between honouring and dignifying people and naming the truths which are sometimes very far from honour and dignity???
Perry in Kitchener Waterloo
Date: 1/22/2004
Time: 9:27:20 AM
Just as Jeremiah is called and commissioned, so too the Corinthian church and the church today are also called and commissioned. In this passage, this call is defined: love. Paul writes that despite their great differences, God can be known in the love that members of this church share with one another. In the previous 12 chapters, Paul has carefully considered the challenges facing the Corinthian church. In the midst of all of this, Paul is reminding them that God calls them, first and foremost, to love.
These verses are often read at weddings. Consider Paul's encouragement to not forget - God know us and therefore we can be sure that God will give us what we need to persevere in love, just as God gave the young Jeremiah all he would need to fulfill his calling.
Date: 1/22/2004
Time: 11:43:11 AM
Wonder why the lectionary writers left out 12:31a, which is a great introduction to this whole thing-"but listen, and I will show you a more excellent way"
Another thought- on grown-up thought, speech, and action - I know an elderly genleman who has been through a lot in the past two years- He lost his wife, one of his sons, and he has cancer (again) The last time I visited with him, he admitted that he had been in a great deal of pain. But he said that God is still good, and that he planned to enjoy whatever time God saw fit to give him.
There is a simplicity that may come from a lack of harsh experience (or even refusing to experince it)-so how precious is a simple, firm faith on the other side of suffering, someone who has faced the questions and complexity of life, and can still proclaim gladly that God is good.
By the way, my friend may be the happiest man I know.Gee, I wonder why!
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 1/23/2004
Time: 8:51:03 AM
So familiar of a passage - yet so hard to live by.
In the context of chapter 12 through 14, it has a whole new meaning (in contrast to the usual meaning found in wedding ceremony). Here, love is the foundation for every other gifts and services.
What interested to me today was the last part, about how love can help me to bear, to believe, to hope, and to endure all things; knowing that everything was partial and temporal. Growing in love, I will become an adult, and no longer behave like a child. (Wait a minute, didn’t Jesus want us to be like children? Not really, that is only in the relationship aspects toward God; toward others, He wanted us to grow in love and be an adult).
v.12 reminded me about the limits of the mind. The more I learned from the scholars, the more I got confused and dissatisfied; however the more I observed the lives of the saints, the more I am hungry to experience what they have. Elsewhere in this epistle Paul wrote that, "knowledge puffs up, but love builds up". Was that where the breakdown: knowledge without love? May God help me to strive more for love, and less for knowledge.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 1/26/2004
Time: 5:40:01 AM
Perry - gosh, you've got my juices flowing today!
A caveat about "tough love:" make sure there's "love" and not just "tough." I recall revgilmer's post on the OT page - about the pointer. We preachers can slip into being the "pointer" more often than we care to admit.
Sally in GA
Date: 1/26/2004
Time: 7:02:16 AM
This has begun some thinking in me. How to use verses 11 and 12, in a communion service at a retirement home. I'm thinking also in relationship to Yahweh's words to Jeremiah "I knew you before you were born." There is wisdom in childhood or how else does a child first learn. With all the mistreatment of children throughout world, could the words of verse 11 contribute to this problem, where adults think less of children? How do we keep a balance between our respect for childhood and adulthood? Perhaps Erik Erickson's 8 stages, and their relationship to each other could prove helpful. These are just very preliminary thoughts as I prepare for Sunday.
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 1/26/2004
Time: 11:31:18 AM
To paraphrase an old rockabilly song - I fought the call and the call won-dropped out of seminary (Perkins) with one semester to go, tired, almost divorced, sick (the doctor said it was gastritis and an incipient ulcer, but it felt like a heart attack) started a career in sales and management where I would have eventually done very well.
To make a long story short, He got me. There have been a lot of days lately when I wish the call had come to someone else.
But it didn't, and like Jeremiah, we have to deal with God's call on our lives. COme to think of it, doesn't every one that has been claimed by Christ have to do that, too. Remember what Fred Craddock once said- "there is no way to modulate an excuse where it can be heard by God" ( something I have some personal experience with)
We Presbyterians have something in the front part of our Book of Order, one of the "five essentail tenets of reformed theology" that we are called for service as well as salvation."
Or as one my favorite professors, Prescott Williams, at Austin seminary told us "God never calls someone except to a task.
So if we really believe that all professing Christians have been called by God, maybe this applies to more than preachers and prophets, and applies to the whole people of God
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 1/26/2004
Time: 11:39:13 AM
oops!
the above comment was obviously meant for the OT passage
oh, well
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 1/27/2004
Time: 7:44:04 AM
An update, and then I'll bore you no more with it. Thank you to all who offered moral support and sound advice last week. It's ironic that, though I was very frustrated the day I wrote the initial post, it really was short-lived (excepting my reaction to bammbmma for which I apologize). However, the discussion went ON and ON!!! A little embarrassing, really! Somehow an everyday frustration got magnified into a major case on the DPS!
Anyways, it's still good to see that I'm not alone in my frustrations.
After concluding that there is no "right" way to de-triangle this, I did the best I could and made it public. And in the best non-anxious-presence I could muster encouraged people to see me directly or see the PPR because I can't possibly clear up confusion if I don't know who it is.
All the more reason to strive for the greater gifts - faith, hope, and love. And ain't it difficult sometimes?
Sally
Date: 1/27/2004
Time: 10:52:51 AM
Some early thoughts:
If love abides (never fails), why do so many marriages fail?
“Love does not create a marriage; marriage teaches us what a costly adventure love is." (author unknown)
There must be a rejection of domestic violence – a marriage without love Just because he says I love you – if he hits it is not love! There might be Eros, passion, sex appeal, but don’t confuse that with true love.
Steve Hermes, Lander WY
Date: 1/27/2004
Time: 3:26:26 PM
Last week I used the text from Luke, touching on the 1 Cor 12 text for the children's sermon, using a Mr. and Mrs. Potato Head to demonstrate how difficult it would be if the "parts" were not in their proper place. Our church is in a crucial period where we are identifying gifts and passions for particular ministries, looking for places to serve in the community, and building a "Culture of Service," rather than a culture of being served.
I will touch on 1 Cor 12 briefly and then move into the more excellent gift, love. It is Communion Sunday and I like the idea of Love being the foundation for all of the other gifts, in much the same way as Worship is the foundation for any and all ministries that flow from the church. Love and Worship go hand in hand, do they not?
PastorBuzz in TN
Date: 1/27/2004
Time: 3:42:46 PM
Here are some sermon Helps I found on 1 Corinthians 13:1-13
Central Ideas 1. Love (agape) is eternal and never fails. It defines God’s relationship to creation: God is love. God’s love is a gift, freely given. Humankind experiences birth and death as part of the life cycle, but God’s love endures through all time, reaching beyond physical death. 2. An encounter with the Divine illuminates our humanness and the unending love of the Creator for us. When approaching the Lord’s table with seriousness of purpose, we can sense God’s love through the specialness of the sacrament. The sacramental symbols of bread and wine remind us of the Lord’s death and resurrection—historical reminders of the depth of God’s love. Our response must be to help others find that love.
Questions for the Speaker 1. When bad things happen to people, how do you explain that God’s love never fails? 2. How can you give expression to that kind of all-powerful love? 3. What experience have you had that affirms God’s constant love for you? 4. When thinking about the Christian Church, what evidence can you cite that we are sometimes like the people of Nazareth, expecting special attention because of our unique calling? 5. How do the sacraments witness of God’s faithfulness and love? 6. What should be our response to God’s grace as shown us through divine love?
Ben in Orangeville
Date: 1/27/2004
Time: 7:45:14 PM
I plan to look at this text in its context, between 1Cor 12 and 14 about spiritual gifts. There is a lot of hype and excitement about spiritual gifts (still) as if they were the end all. God gives them and they are important, “for the common good” as Paul wrote but they are no measure of spiritual maturity as some may think. And they are certainly not a sign of greater spiritual importance as some also think.
So I plan to take some of the romantic sentimentalism out of 1 Cor 13 and look at what it says about love, the more excellent way. And then look at what it may mean applied in my very small church context
RevJHC
Date: 1/28/2004
Time: 5:20:26 AM
First there's last week's ending; "strive for the greater gifts" and then "I will show you a still more excellent way."
That means that ch. 13 is the most excellent way. OK, Sally, Duh! What I can't get out of my mind is Garth and Wayne (Wayne's World skit on SNL) "Most Excellent!" and "We're not worthy!" It won't preach in my congregation, but I still thought of it.
Isn't that how many think of communion? Not worthy? In our denomination there is some serious discussion about what "OPEN" communion really means.
I'm thinking of (finally) trying my hand at sourdough bread. I'd mentioned it at a meeting once that I'd always wanted to try it but never had the starter and that I looked up how to start starter and found that it took a long time. A couple weeks later, Marge N, our communion steward and bread-baker, brought me a container of starter. That's been a year ago.
I thought I might use it as a symbol of her simple kindness - a small but sweet act of agape - and put it into the communion bread, baked by my hands... The starter is a year old so it ought ot have a pretty good bite to it!
Sally in GA
Date: 1/28/2004
Time: 6:42:12 AM
Many people notice I Cor 13 is in the context of chapters 12 and 14 about spiritual gifts. But really this chapter is the key to the whole letter.
The Corinthians were squabbling about their favorite pastors and personalities (chapter 1). But love is not envious or boastful.
The Corinthians were tolerating sexual misconduct, incest and prostitution. But love does not rejoice in wrongdoing.
The Corinthians were suing one another in court. But love does not insist on its own way.
While some were sexually profligate, others were avoiding marriage and commitments (chapter 7). But love risks involvement in others' lives.
Some were hung up on being vegetarians and looking down on the carnivores. But loves is not boastful or arrogant.
Some were not sharing in church suppers and making a mockery of communion. But love serves with generosity.
This is all before we even get to chapter 12 and the spiritual gifts. Chapter 13 is really the key to the whole letter. St. Paul is telling the Corinthians to put aside childish ways and grow up!
Mike in Maryland
Date: 1/28/2004
Time: 7:56:08 AM
Sally I love your idea. I wish I had some special bread for Sunday at the retirement home. But thats ok, the woman playing for me is giving of her talents. We need to be satisfied with what God gives us.
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 1/28/2004
Time: 9:49:35 AM
Clang, Clang Clang with the trolley! Ring, Ring, Ring went the bell! Zing,Zing,Zing went my heartstrings.... AH LOVE! When a young man's heart turns to folley! (ROTFL)
February, we think about LOVE, Valentine's day, eh? (I am single, but you married preachers don't forget the spouse! LOL) We like the marriage relationship to help us understand the relationship to God. The Oneness with The Godhead. When are a part of the Body of Christ. Does one really understand that LOVE. Not Eros...Agape...that's what 1 Cor. 13 speaks about. Well, verses 1-3 says LOVE and FAITH are important Factors.
But, God knows our little brains, knows that we can't conceive the concept, so in verses 4 -8a HE TELLS US What Love is! GOD IS GOOD!
But, to really grasp that understanding verses 11-13 you need to grow up! Spiritually... How many of us are grown up? We've chatted about the Holy Spirit here all month... This is why we need the Holy Spirit---spiritual maturity helper...So, we can Love the way GOD wants us to!!
In the words of those 4 great theologians George,John,Paul and Ringo "ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE!"
~@#$%^&~ (formally Clerically Blonde of west ohio)
Date: 1/28/2004
Time: 2:03:53 PM
The last couple posts have given me a title idea - but one I won't actually use, however tempting it is:
"Oh, Grow Up!"
How about "Oh, Get Over Yourself!"
Sally
Date: 1/28/2004
Time: 5:15:18 PM
To formally Clerically Blonde: I just finished listening to a song by one of my favorite contemporary Christian artists, Larry Norman, who wrote: "The Beatles said 'all you need is love'/and then they broke up" from "Readers Digest," on "Only Visiting This Planet" I had to laugh when I read your post! Love, Love, Love ... PastorBuzz in Tennessee
Date: 1/28/2004
Time: 6:25:46 PM
I love it!
Date: 1/29/2004
Time: 12:09:55 PM
Sue - don't be surprised if your sourdough is dead after a year of non use. You should set it out about once a month or at least feed it a teaspoon of flour and water each month. To get a good "bite" set it out (put the starter away the next morning) but leave it out for several days simply adding a quarter cup of flour and water each morning. By the fourth day you should have a good sour sourdough.
Date: 1/29/2004
Time: 3:16:49 PM
Sally in GA I have a sourdough starter that is over 30years old. You just need to use it once in awhile to keep it primed. If it does not bubble after being left out of the refrig. add a couple of table spoons of sugar. Bill in PC ILL.
Date: 1/30/2004
Time: 9:55:44 AM
From the contributions, I feel like I need to say: Make sure you are preaching to, not preaching at. I found myself doing the latter in this scripture! Blessings!
Date: 1/30/2004
Time: 10:41:19 AM
Thank you for the anonymous writer who contributed recently. To preaching to and preaching at, I would add preaching with. That is one reason I like cultures where responses are made to what th preacher is saying during the sermon. I have been asking the group to which I bring a sermon to repeat with me the last verse of Psalm 19, so it really is a group process.
Also my contribution this week wrestled with what the use of child in verse 11 means I found the answer in the Basic Bible Study Library, these words: "For now, we are all little children. Paul's use of the term child does not reflect immaturity as much as naivete or a sense of not yet being fully aware. Thus speaking, thinking, and reasoning are now done without full awareness and maturity. However, someday the believers in Corinth will outgrow these limitations and restrictions."
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 1/30/2004
Time: 12:10:32 PM
When I do premarital counseling I often will read I Cor. 13:4-7 with the couple and note that in this definition of love there is not one single verse that refers to a feeling. No warm fuzzies. No Hallmark honey and sweetness. It refers to ACTION. Being patient-- when you FEEL im-patient. Being kind -- when you feel like being un-kind. Keeping no score of wrongs -- when you feel like holding a grudge. This is how Christian marriage can not only survive but thrive. But not just marriage but any relationship where both are willing to love each other as defined by this passage. Hence Jesus' command to "LOVE your enemies"! Impossible -- yet, empowered by Christ's Spirit within us, lived out, first as action. Then quite possibly lived out as feelings which follow the actions. Quite the opposite of what society teaches about "love"...
Happy Valentine's Day, in Christ, L'Anni in the Hague, NL
Date: 1/31/2004
Time: 7:56:00 AM
Thanks for the sourdough advice, everyone. I looked up the recipes the other day and discovered that the starter CAN go bad (I didn't know it). So, I tested it and, thank goodness, it bubbled just fine. I'll try the bread later today.
Sally
Date: 1/31/2004
Time: 8:03:37 AM
Cute joke that applies - in case you're looking for "tag points." (ironically, my atheist friend sent it to me from their atheist website - haha)
"I was testing the children in my Sunday school calss to see if they understood the concept of getting to heaven. I asked them, "If I sold my house and my car, had a big garage sale and gave all my money to the church, would that get me into Heaven?"
"NO!" the children answered.
"If I cleaned the church every day, mowed the yard, and kept everything neat and tidy, would that get me into Heaven?"
Again, the answer was, "NO!"
By now, I was starting to smile. Hey, this was fun! "Well then, if I was kind to animals and gave candy to all the children, and loved my husband, would that get me into Heaven?" I asked them again.
Again, they all answered, "NO!"
I was just bursting with pride for them. Well, I continued, "then how can I get into Heaven?"
A five-year-old boy shouted out:
"YOU GOTTA BE DEAD."
- Sally in GA
Date: 2/28/2004
Time: 9:25:13 PM
i don't know if everyone can have love, some desperatley want it and others desperatley need it and they don't know it. but i truly believe that the absence of love is evil and leads to evil. evil also begets evil as in hurting and being hurt, it spawns from your wounds. you never see this from a good person's standpoint.....
Date: 4/18/2004
Time: 4:24:29 PM
EVERYONE HAS LOVE TO GIVE AND RECEIVE. THE PROBLEM IS WE ALL WANT TO CONTROL WHO WE GIVE AND RECEIVE OUR LOVE TO AND FROM. WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT LOVE DOES NOT REALLY BELONG TO US. AND IT CANNOT BE CONTROLLED. THE PERSON OR PEOPLE WE THINK WE LOVE THE MOST IS UNATTAINABLE. THE PERSON WHO LOVES US THE MOST REALLY GROSSES US OUT. WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT LOVE IS TO BE GIVEN FREELY AND RECEIVED FREELY BECAUSE IT IS OUR GREATEST GIFT. WE ALWAYS REMEMBER THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY. IF YOU REALLY SIT DOWN AND ASSESS HOW AND WHY THEY GOT AWAY YOU WILL FIND OUT THAT YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ENDED THE RELATIONSHIP BY TRYING TO CONTROL THE GIVING AND RECEIVING OF LOVE. ALSO THE ONE THAT YOU THINK IS "THE ONE" MAY NOT BE THE ONE THE GOD INTENDS FOR US TO HAVE. SO HEY LOVE ON.
Date: 4/18/2004
Time: 4:25:07 PM
EVERYONE HAS LOVE TO GIVE AND RECEIVE. THE PROBLEM IS WE ALL WANT TO CONTROL WHO WE GIVE AND RECEIVE OUR LOVE TO AND FROM. WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT LOVE DOES NOT REALLY BELONG TO US. AND IT CANNOT BE CONTROLLED. THE PERSON OR PEOPLE WE THINK WE LOVE THE MOST IS UNATTAINABLE. THE PERSON WHO LOVES US THE MOST REALLY GROSSES US OUT. WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT LOVE IS TO BE GIVEN FREELY AND RECEIVED FREELY BECAUSE IT IS OUR GREATEST GIFT. WE ALWAYS REMEMBER THE ONE THAT GOT AWAY. IF YOU REALLY SIT DOWN AND ASSESS HOW AND WHY THEY GOT AWAY YOU WILL FIND OUT THAT YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ENDED THE RELATIONSHIP BY TRYING TO CONTROL THE GIVING AND RECEIVING OF LOVE. ALSO THE ONE THAT YOU THINK IS "THE ONE" MAY NOT BE THE ONE THE GOD INTENDS FOR US TO HAVE. SO HEY LOVE ON.
Date: 5/19/2004
Time: 2:54:23 PM
The main point of the 1-13 is to teach us what love is. If we can use all of these, or some of these definitions about love in our lives, we are taking the attitude of Christ.verse 13 states that faith, hope, and love remain, and the greatest of these three is love. Love is greater than faith, and greater than hope. Jesus said to love our neighbor as ourselves. By commanding this, he is stating what verse 13 talks about;love is the greatest thing we can convey to one another. It is the new commandment! james Leonard in Idaho