Date: 07 Jan 2001
Time: 22:30:24
"To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good." We just celebrated Epiphany... which means God, manifest... made clear to our minds and/or senses. And, as Paul explains it, we each have gifts which are the manifestation of the Spirit... this means we can experience Epiphany through our gifts and so can others. We can and should be celebrating Epiphany EVERY DAY! DL in ME
Date: 09 Jan 2001
Time: 17:27:25
In the United Methodist Church, this Sunday is Human Relations Day. There seemed to be a lot of arguing in the Corinthian Community over which gift was better. Which gift really was Christian. Today it seems we still argue and fight over our differences. We think we all have to agree and be the same, but that's not the case. We all have different views, different gifts, different services, but what binds us together is not those things, but the Spirit of God in our lives. For this we are One in the Spirit and should seek unity in our diversity. RB in NC
Date: 09 Jan 2001
Time: 20:37:11
This passage can be saying something about mono-culture, the "Macdonaldisation" of much of western culture. It is tempting to be seduced by the opporunity to be part of the crowd and not develop or recognise our special gift. Mono-culture is attractive because we may feel we are part of something greater than ourselves. In the process we compromise part of ourselves.
Date: 10 Jan 2001
Time: 17:39:50
What is the foundation of spiritual things (12:1)? A life rooted in right relation to the Lord Jesus. Those who declare Christ as Lord are in the realm of the Spirit. It strikes me that Paul wrote the Corinthian church to correct their misuse of the gifts (ie - self-promotion and pride). Today, this passage addresses many churches where the gifts of the Spirit are not recognised nor used at all. Instead, there is the stubborn pride that says, "The gifts of the Spirit are for some past age. . . or for the Pentecostals." Perhaps there is a fear of what God will do if he gets out of his box. Personally, I grew up in a church which was 'anti' certain gifts. Knowledge, discernment, wisdom - these were OK. But miracles, tongues and the such were out. I also had very negative experiences of 'charismatic' Christianity. There were two Anglicans - David Watson and Canon John Gunstone, and a professor who opened up the life of the Spirit for me. Their academic rigour twinned with their obvious experience of the Spirit at work, made me reconsider my attitudes. Over a period of time, I began to experience the Spirit's gifts in my life. What is so important in this whole matter, is that the gifts are not the focus of attention. Instead, all focus should be on the giving Spirit, the service of the Lord, and the activity of God. Our triune God is the source from which the life of the church springs: one in the Spirit, yet diverse in gifting. The gifts are from God. . .they do not have their origins in us (hence, removing all occassion for pride). The purpose of the gifts of the Spirit is to hail Jesus is Lord and to edify the body of the church. Yet life in the Spirit is risky. It demands discernment and requires humility. My prayer for myself and for my congregation, and for all who preach this passage, is that the Spirit will renew us. A Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 11 Jan 2001
Time: 03:14:24
I have a question: Is there a difference between spiritual gifts and "talent", such as artistic talent, or intellectual ability etc. Or are talents included in the broader category of gifts (they are the more obvious or outward or socially acceptable gifts)?
I have found an interesting connection between this passage and the gospel lesson. Jesus said, "My hour has not yet come", yet then proceeded to perform a miracle. He began his ministry, not based on his sense of when it should start, but based on what was needed. Maybe we don't discover our spiritual gifts in the abstract, but in response to need. As we allow ourselves to be in circumstances of need, God gives us gifts to respond.
DGinNYC
Date: 11 Jan 2001
Time: 12:11:20
DG,
I believe that there are differences between spiritual gifts and talents. Depending on which list you read, there are about 20 spiritual gifts listed is the Bible. I think that these 20 is are more illustrative than exhaustive. Perhaps these are the top 20 spiritual gifts. While not the same as spiritual gifts, talents aren't unrelated. "Every good gift is sent from heaven above." Talents come from God. As with spiritual gifts, we are to be good stewards of the talents entrusted to us using them to serve and build others up.
In our church we've been focusing more on the Holy Spirit. In the fall we completed a study on the healing ministry of the Holy Spirit, and 8 of the participants went on to train as, and are now serving, as prayer ministers. A Lenten class will be using the materials on Spiritual gifts from the people at Stephen Ministries. The 8 hours of sessions focus on identying spiritual gifts and discerning where God calls us to use them in service.
Most of my folks are a blank slate when it comes to Spiritual gifts. Similar to those in Acts who said, "We don't know that there is a Holy Spirit!" However, we are open, being blessed, and looking for more of God's Spirit.
Date: 11 Jan 2001
Time: 12:14:13
(oops, forgot my name)
In Christ, Dale Proulx
Date: 11 Jan 2001
Time: 19:24:57
DG in NYC - good insight!! And it's appropriate to what I'm doing with one of my churches.
Our ministry has had a "stalled" feeling to it (especially when I back off to try to let the laypeople start taking ownership of it), so we'll be having a day of fasting and prayer (this coming Wed). Since this Scripture addresses the issue of spiritual (and ministerial) gifts, I'm hoping to build a theme for them to carry from Sunday morning worship through Wednesday evening when we break the fast together.
The sermon, I think, will be fairly straightforward. What I'd really like help on is how to conduct a worshipful, prayerful prayer meeting that will encourage RESPONSES and WORKING TOGETHER as a church. Although I'm praying for a large turn-out, I'm bracing myself to be prepared for having only 2 or 3 gathered in Jesus' name (to give a sense of perspective).
Has anyone led something like this before? This is my "maiden voyage," so to speak.
revo in ga
Date: 11 Jan 2001
Time: 19:32:10
To DG in NYC. I believe that there is a difference between spiritual gifts and talents. Although they may both come from God, spiritual gifts are less tied to our personal development and training than are our talents. A spiritual gift may be given instantaneously, and then withdrawn. A talent, such as playing the piano usually sticks around once developed. A spiritual gift truly is nothing for us to "boast about" as it is of God, not us. But talents, we usually invest a lot of ourselves in and therefore have more tendency to feel a certain about of pride in a good performance. Spiritual gifts are "manifested" and displayed for the good of the group....talents are displayed for the enjoyment of individuals, who may be in a group, but the enjoyment has nothing to do with the building up or edifying of the whole. Spiritual gifts are given and used to glorify God. Talents are used to glorify the subject matter (i.e. music, or dance, or whatever) or the performer (i.e. have you seen Brittni Spears perform lately?)
Well, that's how I distinquish them anyway. Thanks for all the good input.
Jude in Wash
Date: 11 Jan 2001
Time: 21:20:08
Thanks Jude and Dale. But I still have questions. Spiritual gifts and talents are both given by God. Don't we also grow in our ability to use spiritual gifts (as well as talents)? The training may be the training of prayer and fine-tuning our relationship to God... I always thought that certain people might have the gift of healing, and then cultivate it with experience and prayer. And I think of talents in a similar way. They are the raw material, given by God. When we add training, we get skills, not more talent.
The idea of spiritual gifts being given instantaneously and then withdrawn is interesting, and seems right. But maybe the relationship between talent and spiritual gifts doesn't matter... except that in churches people will often think they have no gifts if they are not artistically talented. And those who are artistically or otherwise talented don't feel a need to pursue (other?) gifts of the spirit.
I also am trying to get my church to pay more attention to the HOly Spirit. I feel there's a lot of potential out there ready to be tapped.
God be with us all! DGinNYC
Date: 11 Jan 2001
Time: 21:34:20
Hi DG in NYC again. Yes, I agree that there can be some "fine tuning" of how we "use" our spiritual gifts. But I think that it may be more apt to say that our "spiritual gifts" use us, rather than we using them. And even that is not quite what I am trying to say. I guess that I perceive that there is a sense that because of our faith in Christ, we are willing vessels for the Spirit of God to enwell our being so that what we may naturally do anyway is now empowered by that which is not our own. It is the presence of the Other making use of us. Talents are God-given, but not necessarily used for the edifying of the Body. Ahhh.....it is difficult to talk about.
But I have experienced the "supernatural" manifestations of gifts like "wisdom" and "knowledge" and they are not the same as my piano playing. Maybe that is the difference. Spiritual gifts often have a "supernatural" component to them, whereas "talent" seems to involve the "natural."
Well, I hope I haven't muddied the waters for anyone.
Jude in Wash.
Date: 12 Jan 2001
Time: 09:49:45
I quite agree with Jude in Washington about the distinction between gifts and talents and the way they are given. It is not as if the Spirit withdraws the gifts from us, but the gifts cannot simply be exercised at our own will and whim. Whereas talents - such as public speaking, playing the piano, being a good cook - are things which are God given, yet they may be used by us at any time and in any place. On the other hand, the gift of healing can only be exercised under moving of the Spirit - we cannot force his hand through 'faith formula'. The gift of speaking in tongues or of speaking a word of wisdom and knowledge are other gifts which must be Spirit led. The gift of speaking in tongues is as if the Spirit prays through us when we no longer know what to pray for. These are times when words which have meaning are no longer useful. We must always remember - THE GIFTS ARE NOT ABOUT US - THEY ARE ABOUT THE SPIRIT WORKING THROUGH US FOR THE SAKE OF THE 'COMMON GOOD' OF OUR COMMUNITY. A Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 12 Jan 2001
Time: 14:11:12
I think the last several posts have hit on an interesting distinction: whether the ability (spiritual gift or talent) is temporary. I'm a classical vocalist - God gave me four things: 1) a nice-sounding voice, 2) a musical "ear", 3) the opportunity to train it, and 4) a natural passion for music. One of the things I enjoy most about being a singer is that I can play music any time I want. The voice is the most portable instrument imaginable.
On the other hand, I've witnessed tongue-speaking many times, and, without being too judgmental, I can almost tell what people are saying sometimes - while at others, the only "interpretation" I ever get is that they're just trying too hard, or faking it.
Date: 12 Jan 2001
Time: 14:15:40
Oops - posted it before I was finished!!! Sorry.
Anyways, a talent is accessible almost at any time, whereas a gift of the Spirit comes when God wants it to come.
Also, don't forget that Paul was also exhorting the Corinthians NOT to value one gift above another. Even though I've been able to interpret tongues, no one is ever interested in it - only a deep concern that people SPEAK in tongues (a gift I've never received).
Maybe this is hair-splitting, because regardless if it's temporary or full-time, gifts/talents/whatever ARE to be used to edify the church. I disagree that it's just for "enjoyment." I do think talents such as art, music, cooking can be used to build up the body, and tap into our spirits - just maybe not in the same way.
revo in ga
Date: 12 Jan 2001
Time: 18:14:26
rev in ga - I am also a trained singer and quite agree with the comments you've made. However, I don't believe it is hairsplitting to distinguish between talents and gifts. Talents, whether used for God's glory or for enjoyment, are part of our natural being. Those who are not Christians can equally be good singers, for example. However, gifts of the Spirit begin and end with God. God is the source of the gifts and the object of their usage. Gifts are for the purpose of declaring Christ as Lord. Concentration on the gift rather than the Giver is dangerous. Once again, thanks to all of you for the many stimulating and thought provoking coments. A Canadian in Scotland who has just finished the sermon.
Date: 12 Jan 2001
Time: 19:10:28
To the Canadian in Scotland - Thanks for your "exhortations" :) I've just outlined my sermon, and it is entitled "Spirit Speak." What hit me as the overlaying theme here, is that the Corinthians used to follow "mute" idols....but now they follow a God who is not mute, but rather One who speaks (and Who is triune) - through us....through gifts...for the edifying of the Body. Thank you all for your comments - they certainly help in developing ideas.
Jude in Wash.
Date: 12 Jan 2001
Time: 20:23:37
Thanks all for your wisdom. I've learned something. Now the hard part begins: writing. Is there a gift of writing? (just joking...) DGinNYC
Date: 13 Jan 2001
Time: 01:56:11
DG in NYC – What a wonderful insight. How many of us do not discover our gifts until we just use them—in response to someone needing it. Eg, lots of people say they cannot speak in front of people. But when an issue needs to be addressed, they find their voice. Another perspective: I had someone in my NYC church (from which I cam just 1 ½ years ago) that believed she had no gifts. Her husband, a gifted (as well as talented) photographer, got all the accolades. Then when they finally became active in church life, rest of us told her how good she was just in making people feel welcome, special. That was her gift. Finally she began to accept it as her gift and began to use it in a pro-active way, looking out for folk who were not comfortable in church and making sure they were, making sure they were recognized for their gifts. That’s what church can do—help folk manifest their gift for the common good. I love it!! Sharon in Bethlehem
Date: 13 Jan 2001
Time: 01:57:54
Forgot to mention that I am using a wonderful story about why geese fly in v-formation. Found it in Richard Fairchild's website in sermon on this lection. Sharon in Bethlehem
Date: 13 Jan 2001
Time: 04:45:16
Sometimes it is important to know what your spiritual gifts are and what they ARE NOT. I think clergy particularly get sucked into this delusion that we have to be all things to all people. You have heard it said, "But then you will be nothing to no one!." Yet we and the church often place on us the unrealistic expectation that a "good pastor" shall have the experience of a retired minister and yet be in his/her thirties, be "creative" and a "visionary," and yet also be the one who "mediates" everyone's wounded feelings when change comes about, who is called to be a prophetic voice, but just be sure not to offend anyone, take care of himself so that he has a contagious Christian life yet expect him/her to be employed in the ministry every waking hour....etc. The Spirit shares the Gifts with the community. Let's face it, we pastors CANNOT do everything...or at least do everything WELL! How can we let go and trust God with this? How do we empower laity to reclaim their gifts once again?
I am preaching a sermon entitled, "Lord send us the gifts of the ministry you call us to do." Ideally, I would like to take every part of my pastoral job description and divee (sp?) it out to anyone who feels passionate about taking over. Wouldn't it be wonderful if a laity jumped at the chance to preach in the pulpit? Smile.
I also heard someone give a good answer to the question, "How do we find our spiritual gifts?" He said to make a journal and incorporate in it all that you felt passionate about. Often our gifts are where are hearts will be.
Mary in NC
Date: 13 Jan 2001
Time: 12:40:20
Jude in Washington, thanks for your insight. I have believed for some time that Spiritiual Gifts are given as we have need (11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will) KJV not as a life long treasure that could only bring spiritual pride. JJ in LA
Date: 13 Jan 2001
Time: 15:05:28
canadian in scotland -
Good insights. However, I'm thinking along the lines of "prevenient grace." Whether or not we know it, God gives the gift and (often) also puts in us the desire to use it. What you said about not having to be a Christian in order to sing well.
I have a friend who is (or claims to be) an atheist. One of the ways I'm trying to work with her is to use music as a common point. I posit that music, art, WRITING (someone used as a joke), and even nature would not be experienced as beautiful were there not a Hand creating in us the desire for beauty. I grant you that this is a BROAD definition of "spiritual," but I still think that when even she, as an atheist, sings a Mass that it is more than a work of beautiful music.
Prevenient grace is hard to explain in this little white box here. But God can call us and use us long before we're ever aware of it (those who deny the existence of any kind of god are simply "pre-Christians).
OK, I'm through - and your exhortatrions are helpful, especially in this arena. I do believe God can use even pre-Christians, and can speak through them.
Raef Vaughn Williams is one example. Robert Shaw, another (although he'd started out studying to be a priest).
Anyways, I'm not trying to argue; just to think it all through - aloud.
revo
Date: 13 Jan 2001
Time: 18:11:18
Our scripture says that "no one can say Jesus is Lord" unless by the Spirit." From this, I guess we can assume that all who say "Jesus is Lord" (and really mean it)have the Spirit. But that isn't to say that those who don't say "Jesus is Lord" can't have the Spirit. As it says in John (I think) "the wind goes where it will. So it is with the Spirit."
Prevenient grace in my understanding is that bit of grace planted within us which prompts us to seek the living God. And yes, "charis" means "grace" and comes from "char" which means "joy." But I think that when Paul speaks of "spiritual gifts" he is talking about something else - I guess one could assume that grace is grace - but from the lists I see in scripture concerning the "gifts", they seem a little more substantial than my notion of prevenient grace. Of course, maybe I don't have a very clear notion of "prevenient grace."
Anyway, just thinking outloud again.
Jude in Wash
Date: 13 Jan 2001
Time: 19:03:15
Question for the greek scholars out there - what do we learn from a word study on the greek word, "gift". No time to do the study myself! Desperate Mary on the Prairie on Saturday afternoon
Date: 13 Jan 2001
Time: 20:04:28
There's a wonderful questionairre about discerning your spiritual gifts - I have the link somewhere and can send it if you're interested. The idea is if we help people identify their gifts they are more likely to use them for the building up of the kingdom. I'll be right back with the url ...
kbc in sc
okay, here it is: http://members.ols.net/~michael/SpiritualGiftsDiscernment.html
Date: 13 Jan 2001
Time: 20:45:04
Thanks kbc. I was just thinking: Are talents the instruments through which we channel our gifts? Or perhaps just by using our talents for the glory of God and for the “common good” is to know that our talent is a gift to be used. Sharon in Bethlehem
Date: 14 Jan 2001
Time: 01:57:07
Thanks, Sharon in Bethlehem for the geese reference. I finally found it and have used it as a good illustration of "manifesting our spiritual gifts for the common good." It is good to share ideas here. May all of your services be filled with the Spirit and may your sanctuaries overflow with the love of Christ.
Jude in Wash