Date: 18 Jun 2000
Time: 20:53:43
Help! How do you preach this story? It is familiar, and is often over used in Spiritual Warfare discussions. I realize that God gives us "victory" over evil, but I want to be careful that I don't spiritualize this text so much I lose it's real meaning. And was it really God's will to kill the giant? revwolfe in FL
Date: 19 Jun 2000
Time: 02:30:41
I have looked at this scripture in several different ways over the years.
It is interesting to me that David refers to the way God has trained him in the past. God used a lion and a bear and Davids confidence grew. David trusted God in those cases and so he could now trust God with Goliath.
David does not go against Goliath in his own strength, but in the name and honor of God. He was horofied that anyone could be allowed to profane the Almighty God of Israel. It was God's fight, and he saw himself as a representative.
Interesting also that David could not wear Sauls armor - a great honor - but had to be himself.
All Sunday night musings but a great story to preach from.
And yes, I think God meant for Goliath to die. What would lead you to any other conclusion?
Pastor Bill in NY
Date: 19 Jun 2000
Time: 18:35:57
I just returned from Israel. I have seen what the Israelites have done to the Palestinians. I wonder if it is truely God's will. Evil destruction is not God's will. The Palestines now see Israel as Goliath and themselves as David. The very ones who were once God's Chosen is now doing the acts discrimination in the Name of that very God. The Palestinians claim to be like the "American Indian" in the country. The Christians came to America and claimed the land as God's manifestesto. So do the Israelites claim Palestine in God's manifestesto. Now the Palestinians have only stones as weapons against the Israelites M.16's. Makes me wonder.
Date: 20 Jun 2000
Time: 04:24:40
Dear No Named friend,
I sympathize with the Palestinians and my Liberation Theology says God is likely with them in this attrocity.
However, the question was, "was it really God's will to kill the giant?"
Again, in context, I say yes, and what else would you presume? God meant the giant to devistate the Israelites and drag their God through the mud, but David got off a lucky, perhaps God frustrating God over-ruling shot?
I do not think so.
Pator Bill in NY asking who are you?
Date: 20 Jun 2000
Time: 11:52:45
Dear Friends, I thank you for your responses so far; please send more. I am finding my attention drawn this week toward the good vs. evil theme. I am wondering however, does this text give weight to those who are pro-capital punishment? I hear what Pastor Bill in NY is saying, but wouldn't it be fair to say that rapist, murders, and serial killers, would fall into the category of "people who profane the name of the Almighty?" And why is David the one who is "called" to be the executioner (sorry about the spelling)? HOw does he know he should do this? I think about the many responses to the existence of evil and this world, and while for now I am willing to except from my Wesleyan tradition that human freedom is the cause for much of the evil in this world, I am still looking for an appropiate response. Christ's response seemed to be suffering and faith in His Father. David's was a slingshot and faith in His Heavenly Father. Is there room for both responses? Is one better than the other? Do different times call for different measures? Still searching thanks for the help so far. revwolfe in FL
Date: 20 Jun 2000
Time: 15:18:03
I am going to use this story as a jumping off point to preach about David. The sermon is going to be an "educational sermon": How much do you know about David? It will focus on three parts of his life: His battle with Goliath, his battle with Saul, and his affair and marriage to Bethsheba. In the first part, I will ask the congregation: What are the Goliaths in your life? What are your fears? And how can we summon God, as David did to overcome them? In the second part, I want to mention, the friendship between David and Jonathan. That always strikes me as important. It's such a counter-theme to Saul's inability to give up power.
In the third part, I will focus on David's own weaknesses, and the famous story of Nathan about the poor man and the lamb.
All in all, the point is to give an overview of a very exciting, flawed, biblical hero.
-Alex in Ohio
Date: 20 Jun 2000
Time: 15:24:45
I preach this story this way. I open by talking about the fact that many of us face gigantic struggles in our lives. Some happen quickly, so have hounded us for years. Yet this story gives us some basic principles for dealing with the giants that we face. We notice that David came to this battle prepared. Years of protecting sheep from predators had necessitated that he learn how to use a sling. (Not a sling-shot, which is not nearly as effective.) It's also evident that David decided to be himself. As he refused the King's armor, David opted to used what had worked uniquely for him. God has given each of us unique talents that enable us to be our best. The issue of trust in God is important. David's words to the giant were, "You come..with sword and spear, but I come in the name of the Lord." David called on all his experiences, then he left the rest in the hands of God. History is littered with the wreckage of Goliaths who thought that they could handle anything under their own power. History is littered with crumbling church buildings where people thought that by their own might they had done great things for God. But we are graphically reminded that we do our best work, our only enduring work, when we come in the name of the Lord. -Dale in Chattanooga
Date: 20 Jun 2000
Time: 16:46:24
Hans Wilhem Hertzberg I&II Samuel writes the whole account is intended to demonstrate that all the world..., to see that Isrial has a God whose name alone is sufficient to strike the strongest man to the ground. David remark that God needs neither sword nor spear to aid him. And that he uses what is weak to put the strong to shame reveals a basic law of the kingdom of God. What is stressed here and was certainly taken up and celibrated by the commumty of faith which heard this story and handed it down was that God had done his saving work without there having been a sword in the hand of his chosen instrament. Lynn in Virginia
Date: 20 Jun 2000
Time: 19:38:08
God's Peace!
When a native tribesman of Africa was asked how do you eat a whole elephant his response was, one little bite at a time. Pornography, greed, adultery, alternative lifestyles, are all our Goliaths. We are the Davids with only a sling. How do we destroy lifes immorality's? With one little bite at a time until we can cut it's head off. All with the help of God, and the armor of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Got God jcny
Date: 20 Jun 2000
Time: 19:39:29
God's Peace!
When a native tribesman of Africa was asked how do you eat a whole elephant his response was, one little bite at a time. Pornography, greed, adultery, alternative lifestyles, are all our Goliaths. We are the Davids with only a sling. How do we destroy lifes immorality's? With one little bite at a time until we can cut it's head off. All with the help of God, and the armor of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Got God jcny
Date: 20 Jun 2000
Time: 21:10:33
Perhaps the place we need to start is the lie that says Christ came to make the world a moral place! That is a TRUE Goliath.
Date: 20 Jun 2000
Time: 21:15:24
Hi all.
The above is said a bit harshly, but there is some truth behind it. Ultimately, Christianity is not about morality. It's about faith. Perhaps faith will make us more moral, perhaps not. But it is so easy to get off the track this way, and think that it's our job to get rid of the Goliaths in our lives (especially the ones we appoint to BE our Goliaths!).
May GOd make us all more faithful!
Rick in Canada, eh?
Date: 20 Jun 2000
Time: 22:00:39
Is the above annonimous offering from the same liberal friend that refused to name him/herself earlier? Why not claim your opinions and chat about them.
I am wrong about many things in life, and continue to grow and learn from others. It is hard though, to take nameless opinions seriously here.
Did Jesus come to make immorality moral, in your opinion?
I beleive that Jesus did not come primarily to make Bad people Good, but to make Dead people Alive. However, once alive in the Spirit Bad people change and God's goodness seeps out of us. I am a wretch that was and is being saved and changed.
Pastor Bill in NY
Date: 21 Jun 2000
Time: 13:14:25
I am leaning toward concentrating on verse 9. We can either conquer our problems, or our fears conquer us. Addictions, fear of not having enough, overeating, greed, control over others, etc. can seem like giants, and they can seem so big that we will not be able to claim victory. We can either surrender or perhaps put on the armor of the world--working longer hours, hiding from our feelings, doing lots of good deeds, accumulating a lot of things, etc. These just seem to make things worse. However, if we, like David, put on God's armor, we find that the giants are not so powerful as we had thought. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. Pastor Caroline in Carolina
Date: 21 Jun 2000
Time: 13:38:09
The community of mice living in that home had a problem. This problem threatened extinction to their colony. You can probably guess what problem confronted these mice. Yes, mice were not the only animals living in this house. In the house was also a big, white cat. And this big white cat did not ignore the mice. In fact, this cat had caught and devoured 3 of their best mice. And the mice knew they had to do something about it. So the mice gathered a meeting to discuss the problem and develop a solution. All the mice assembled. They were a noisy lot. After the moderator called them all together, she explained to the group about the problem the community faced. “We must come up with a solution, the moderator explained, to preserve ourselves. We must come up with a way to keep this cat away from us.” Just then, one of the young mice spoke up, “I have been thinking long and hard about this and I have a plan that will solve all of our problems. We all know that the cat is sly. We all know that the cat is able to sneak up on us and catch us without any warning. So I propose that we put a bell on the cat. That way, whenever the cat is near us we will hear the bell before the cat is able to pounce on us.” Another mouse spoke up, “I think putting a bell on the cat is a great idea. That way we would hear the cat and be able to run from the cat before it is too late.” Others spoke up as well. “Putting a bell on the cat is a fabulous idea,” expressed another. The mice were abuzz with excitement. They started singing with joy. But then one old mouse stood up in the assembly and motioned for the crowd to quite down. This mouse had been around for quite some time. “I agree,” he said, “that putting a bell on the cat is a great idea. But I just have one simple question. Who is going to bell the cat?” Today we encounter the story of David and Goliath. And jsut like those mice, we have hear a story which asks the question “Who is going to bell the cat?” Or as it is presented in this story, “Who is going to slay the giant?” Sam in Siler City
Date: 21 Jun 2000
Time: 14:32:40
I've noticed some people are getting caught in the details. The story is not about how God hates giants. The story is about David's faith and the strength God gives when we encounter Goliaths in our life. Also remember this story did not happen last night. It occured in a specific culture, a culture were battles were fought to show the power of the (gods) represented. Don't make this a memorial service for the giant, use this service to praise the power of God.
Date: 21 Jun 2000
Time: 17:54:31
Hi,
I believe that the Samuel lesson needs to be taken as metaphor. David represents good; Goliath can represent either forces of evil or barriers of oppression in our lives. Hence, it is not a question of whether God wanted Goliath killed, but what does it take to break through the seemingly unpenetrable barriers? It is an understanding of the listener that no matter how large the odds are against one, God is able to overcome those odds. The emphasis is put on God overcoming the odds and not humans.
Therefore, in the David and Goliath story. David represents tiny Israel overcoming the greater forces that surrounds it. This is "God's Strength In Action" which is the title of my sermon this Sunday.
Just a word to the person who wants to do an "educational sermon." Take seriously the story about how do you eat an elephant.
HJ in CA
Date: 21 Jun 2000
Time: 20:23:05
One of the commentators I read this week pointed out that David shunned the shields and swords -- the technology of his day. As Israel expected to match the Philistines' force with the same type of force, David used a more subversive technique, relying only on the gifts that God had given him. Similarly, arms races between countries may cause stalemates and temporarily prevent wars, but they will not bring about peace. Whether we're fighting the shadowy giants of our personal lives, social evils such as racism, or socio-political giants such as Apartheid, our reliance should be on God as we embody the alternative. I'm going to focus my sermon on the stones that David collected from the wadi (a dry river bed). My title will be the sword and the stone. MTSOfan
Date: 21 Jun 2000
Time: 21:29:36
Grace and peace to you all. I thank you for all of your postings as they are thought-provoking and stimulating. I'm planning on approaching this text from the standpoint of "Obstacles to grace." The Israelite army could not (would not) allow God to work in their lives because they were not trusting in Him; they were trusting only in themselves. But David allowed God to use him (in spite of his size) to overcome adversity. The obstacle to God's grace is not Goliath, it is self (the Israelite army, itself). To receive the fullness of God's grace, we must be willing to rely on Him, not on self. Pastor Mark in IL
Date: 21 Jun 2000
Time: 21:30:15
Grace and peace to you all. I thank you for all of your postings as they are thought-provoking and stimulating. I'm planning on approaching this text from the standpoint of "Obstacles to grace." The Israelite army could not (would not) allow God to work in their lives because they were not trusting in Him; they were trusting only in themselves. But David allowed God to use him (in spite of his size) to overcome adversity. The obstacle to God's grace is not Goliath, it is self (the Israelite army, itself). To receive the fullness of God's grace, we must be willing to rely on Him, not on self. Pastor Mark in IL
Date: 21 Jun 2000
Time: 21:32:13
Sorry about the double posting. Apparently I haven't figured this out yet :) God bless you all!
Date: 21 Jun 2000
Time: 23:11:22
My sermon will take the Philistine's point of view. I may do a soliloquoy from Goliath's shield bearer.
How would we as Philistines preach this text after the death of our? Mayber, instead of trying to examine the "Goliaths" in our lives, we would look at the "Davids," those pesky little things that tend to knock us down ther moment we are full of pride.
The lesson we learn from the passage, whether you are a Hebrew, a Philistine, or a 21st Century Westerner, is to let God be the giant rather than our egos or our fears.
By the way, Judah and the Philistines are at war. This was not an execution nor a blood bath. Goliath was the Philistine champion. In Hebrew, the word for champion (vs 4) is literally "the man in the middle," that is, the one who would stand alone in no-man's land to fight to the death a representative from the enemy. (Notice the care the writer takes in vs 3 to describe the two armies on opposing mountaintops and the valley between them.) The army whose champion lost would surrender to the winning side. Ideally, this prevents massive bloodshed. Goliath wanted a one-on-one fight to the death. He and the rest of the Philistines just didn't expect him to lose.
Also, it is easy to forget to sign your name to these postings. It is helpful when people do leave their names (either real or false) because it is easier for others to reference their comments. However, no one should think less of a posting if it is unaccompanied by a signature.
DSS
Date: 22 Jun 2000
Time: 01:52:37
I am a senior at McCormick Theological Seminary and I am preaching on D&G at my church this Sunday. I have received many good ideas from this discussion. What I have been exploring is the idea that With God we can expect the unexpected. Also, when we look at how God works in other peoples lives we can see how they sometimes can do the unexpected. So why don't we see ourselves doing the unexpected for God. When we learn from David's experience and follow his example of being prepared and trusting in the Lord we too can defeat the Goliaths in our lives and do the unexpected. I need some good illistrations to support this concept. Any ideas? In Christ B. Davis
Date: 22 Jun 2000
Time: 03:49:03
Dear B. Davis,
The best examples will come out of your own life experiences. Where has God been sufficient for your need? When has God carried you against seemingly unconquerable odds? You can tell my story and people will listen. If you tell your story people will hear you and be moved to faith.
Date: 22 Jun 2000
Time: 15:23:33
I agree with Rick in Cananda. The story is about faith. David is being shown to be a man a faith, and thus, a viable candidate for the job as king of Israel. Even the five smooth stones speak of faith. Each stone could represent a letter of the word faith which has five letters. Maybe that is a little too contrived, but it does make a good illustration.
Paul in Illinois
Date: 23 Jun 2000
Time: 04:11:38
To MTSOfan: I'm curious as to how you will use the stones David collected from the river. I, too, plan on using the stones as metaphors for the things David needed to slay the giant (training, obedience, courage, the ability to do what they said couldn't be done, and, most of all, faith in God). Five smooth stones - what are they for us today? RevCG
Date: 23 Jun 2000
Time: 14:22:14
Dear everyone, I got an interesting idea for a sermon on this scripture reading from a friend -- she said "Why don't you do a story about GOLIATH." She's quite a character, my friend! Anyway, I've been thinking about that -- reminds me of some of our sports heros -- from high school to the pros. The team that plays as a team usually wins out over the team that has ONE great player they depend on to carry them through. The Philistines seemed to put all of their hopes on one man, which eventually lead to their running away in humiliation. David, on the other hand, was the bench warmer in the fourth quarter -- he desperately wanted to play -- to defend his team (God's people). One could go on and on...... Just an idea.
Janel Licensed Minister for Pulpit Supply
Date: 23 Jun 2000
Time: 18:02:18
It says "non-courteous postings will have to be deleted" But apparantly that is not true. Pastor Bill from NY certainly slammed someone for the words he/she wrote and for not putting a name to it. I don't see you as particularly revealing. I image there is more than one pastor in NY named Bill. I agree with the comment about morality. I see so many with the attitude "Do whatever you damn well please, we're all going to heaven."
Jay from TX
Date: 23 Jun 2000
Time: 19:18:28
Back to the text
I am going to deal with how we face a crisis in our life. There is the way of Israel which is paralizing fear as seen in Israel's army, shirking responsibility as the tallest man in Israel, Saul, wants to pay someone else to fight his battle for him, and skathing cynicism of Eliab who would rather for all Israel to perish than for his little brother to be right.
There is the Goliath way of confronting crisis which is faith in one's self weilding weapons of arrogance, ambition, and audacity. But there is always a chink in every armor of humankind. ( Of course, if Goliath could speak, he would say that it was the shield bearer's fault because he failed to hold the shield high enough.)
And there is the way of David- the way of faith, A faith based on a belief in past intervensions of God- a faith based on belief that God equips individuals with unique gifts- a faith based on belief that God delights in using weakness to gain glory.
We can face our crisis by shaking in fear, shirking our responsibility, and soaking in cynicism. We can face it with arrogance that we have all power, the adcacity to believe that we are self protected, and the ambition to tromp on anyone who thinks otherwise. Or, we can draw courage from our past experiences and the experiences of others, careful confidence from the unique, God-given gifts discovered within, and commitment to allow God to use our weakness to gain glory for His Kingdom.
I will probably use one illustration from Reynold Price's book A Whole New Life. rb in reidsville
Date: 23 Jun 2000
Time: 23:04:30
Hi - lots of wonderful suggestions so far and I probably can't add much further apart from saying that I will maybe concentrate on the words, as others above have done: "I cannot walk with these; for I am not used to them." I'm only starting thinking about the sermon for Sunday but these words have got me thinking about advice we give and get in life. Sometimes we give advice and expect that this is the best way for someone to cope and we are offended or hurt when they don't do what we have suggested - but we are all so different and perhaps our advice doesn't suit them for we're offering them tools that they are not used to/armour that doesn't suit them. In the same token when people dictate or offer help in situations and we feel that this doesn't suit us or that it won't work for us and we can work better with the gifts God has given us for the task - then that it is ok. It doesn't mean we should stop taking or giving advice but we must allow ourselves and others to weigh up the options and then take the appropriate course of action. Saul thought he was being helpful and in many cases his advice would have been good but not in David's case - and this is so true to life.
Back to my sermon writing here and burning the midnight oil.
Blessings RevShirls - Scotland
Date: 24 Jun 2000
Time: 01:26:17
Dear Jay from Tx,
They do make a good decaf now - try some and lighten up. I read Pastor Bill as seeking clarity and nothing more. Don't blow a hose friend.
Juan Valdez - Columbia
Date: 24 Jun 2000
Time: 12:24:33
Thanks so much everyone for your contributions this week. They have really got my mind going on this passage. While I still feel compelled to deal with the struggle of good and evil, I have refocused my attention on what I believe is a much more meaningful conflict in this passage,i.e., Saul vs. David. Next weeks OT lesson deals with the death of Saul and Jonathan. The writer of I Samuel kows that David will be king and is already attempting to show us how he is worthy of this title. The armor of Saul not fitting and David's comments work to show the distinction between David and Saul. Another point of contrast is that King Saul refuses to risk his neck for his nation or his God. (Interesting thought for an election year). David on the other hand show both committment to God and people by taking the chance against the giant. Could it be that the writer has given us two examples of how evil or more properly "anti-God" oppostion can be approached?
Thank you especially to the writer that pointed out that Israel was in the middle of a war with the Philistines. In wars people die, the cold, hard, ugly reality is that passivism leads to death during wars. Thanks again.
revwolfe in FL
Date: 24 Jun 2000
Time: 16:23:20
Hello all- I am intrigued by this idea of Goliath as the man in the middle. The one to stand out in the middle to represent the entire army. Goliath is an intimidating figure in the first place, but the army he represented was something far more frightening. How true is this today where the real enemies are based in a system rather then an individual. The most horrible evil is systemic. David killed Goliath, but how afraid would we have been that the rest of the Philistine army would have charged David and taken him down. Goliath was the least of David’s problems. Talk about faith! Peace Doug in KY
Date: 24 Jun 2000
Time: 17:44:16
YIKES!!!!!!!!! THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR THEOLOGICAL WARFARE!!!!! STOP IT NOW!!!!!! IN THE NAME OF GOD.....STOP FIGHTING!!!!!!!
REVPE NY
Date: 24 Jun 2000
Time: 19:29:01
I'm approaching this with the idea that God's methods are so unlike ours,so surprising at times, like little David and stones when we would choose bigger guns, swords, and shields... anyone have any good "unlikely hero" stories that might add some ilustration? Thanks Jeanne in MI
Date: 24 Jun 2000
Time: 20:03:13
Jeanne, How about Rosa Parks? MTSOfan
Date: 24 Jun 2000
Time: 20:12:53
To RevCG: I don't plan to be highly metaphorical with them. I think it's strikingly poetic that Saul uses God's name, yet seems to know little about God. Like the wadi, life under his leadership seems to have "dried up." The contrast in the story seems to be just as much between David and Saul as it is between David and Goliath. Yet, God can use a resource, even from something that's "dried up," along with David's familiar shepherding equipment and his faith, to subvert Goliath, the representative of a formidable military machine. I'm going to apply that concept to personal, social, and socio-political giants.
Date: 25 Jun 2000
Time: 01:11:08
Here's my outline for this text: I Samuel 17:32-58 “From All Appearances”
I. Your Age is Wrong – but God is Ageless I Sam. 17:33 – “you are only a boy” I Sam. 17:42 – “He looked David over and saw that he was only a boy, ruddy and handsome, and he despised him.
II. Your Experience is Inadequate – but God goes before you I Sam. 17:33 – “and he has been a fighting man from his youth.” I Sam 17:36 – “Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the loving God.
III. Your Equipment is Puny – but God is your sword and shield I Sam. 17:38a “Then Saul dressed David …” 17:40 “Then he took his staff in his hand, chose five smooth stones from the stream, put them in the pouch of his shepherd’s bag and, with his sling in his hand, approached the Philistine.”
Phil in Kansas City, MO
Date: 25 Jun 2000
Time: 01:11:46
Here's my outline for this text: I Samuel 17:32-58 “From All Appearances”
I. Your Age is Wrong – but God is Ageless I Sam. 17:33 – “you are only a boy” I Sam. 17:42 – “He looked David over and saw that he was only a boy, ruddy and handsome, and he despised him.
II. Your Experience is Inadequate – but God goes before you I Sam. 17:33 – “and he has been a fighting man from his youth.” I Sam 17:36 – “Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the loving God.
III. Your Equipment is Puny – but God is your sword and shield I Sam. 17:38a “Then Saul dressed David …” 17:40 “Then he took his staff in his hand, chose five smooth stones from the stream, put them in the pouch of his shepherd’s bag and, with his sling in his hand, approached the Philistine.”
Phil in Kansas City, MO