Date: 11/3/2003
Time: 3:49:09 PM
These are always hard, they do nothing for the person who ask why is my prayer not answered like Hannah's... Nancy-Wi
Date: 11/7/2003
Time: 9:56:17 AM
Good point, Nancy. But I think this text is also important because of the focus on Hannah, a woman. Not so much that her prayer is answered and she gets pregnant, but that her husband accuses her of being drunk then listens to her when she says no, she was in prayer. We need more stories of these strong women to be raised up in the pulpit. Of course, it is disturbing (though typical) that she asks specifically for a male child, and I'm not sure yet how I'll deal with that. But I think I'll focus on the fact that, even in those early days, women did have power over this one thing, their wombs. They may not have had power over who impregnated them, but their wombs still belonged to them in some way. This will be a tough text to sell to my congregation, a traditionalist UCC congregation with mostly elderly members. But I think it's a beautiful text.
Peace, DHG
Date: 11/9/2003
Time: 1:56:10 PM
I don't see where ANYONE but God listened to Hannah. Her husband didn't. Eli didn't - he just told her to go in peace, that God would answer her. He didn't have a clue what had vexed Hannah so deeply. He didn't ask, she never told.
She was all alone in her pain. Nobody around her understood her emptiness, or really even seemed to care. Penenniah rubbed her nose in it. Elkanah discounted her misery, saying "You've got ME, isn't that more than enough? What do you want with a kid, anyway?" And Eli just gave her a figurative pat on the shoulder and sent her home. But Hannah knew GOD would listen, Hannah knew GOD understood the depth of her pain. How good it is to be able to talk to the very one who fashioned us, who knows us inside and out, and to pour out our hearts to one who will listen in love. We may not all get the reply we are seeking, but so often, the biggest help in sadness and loss is just having someone who will LISTEN to us. To feel utterly alone is a horrible hell to walk through.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 11/9/2003
Time: 5:24:46 PM
I see all kinds of things in this text. In many ways I wish I had the opportunity to preach on this one insted of the Christ the King text that I have been asked to do. But of course just observing all of you and your preparations for your congregations on Sunday. I always hold you up in prayer.
In any case, I see Yahweh observing all these characters. I don't see Elkanah being uncaring, I see him being honest. He cared for her. Very similar to Jacob and Rachael. Unfortunately the natural desire for children, and the cultureal importance of the son for lineage, plus a competing (not loved as well)other wife, made it natural for Hannah to want a child. I think also of Eli who had his own problems later with his sons, probably not really focusing on the needs and facts of the congregation (sounds familiar!). Wow, just reflecting on this pericope excites me! Happy preaching preachers!
Shalom
Bammamma
Date: 11/10/2003
Time: 5:21:31 AM
Painful to me in this passage is Hannah's experience of her peers. It reminds me of the many young women I have witnessed who've gone to such great lengths (physical transformation--bulemia, breast implants, etc. being extreme examples) to feel worthy and find a sense of power in the sight of males, but more often through emotional bullying such as we see here by Peninnah.
Hannah's only real community of safety, the other women (woman) in her life, do not support her in the social taboo of barrenness, but rather taunt her. Hannah is willing to pre-destine (or dedicate, if you will) a male child's life simply so she becomes equally powerful among her female friends. Although this passage can be approached in many ways, as you have all offered previously; for whatever reason, the Holy Spirit has put upon my heart the tragedy of what our young women go through in a world still dominated by a male culture that too often values women only as childbearers or trophies.
Shalom,
PLW
Date: 11/10/2003
Time: 7:26:12 AM
Maybe I'm not reading the text correctly, but I don't see that Elkanah had put the expectation of anything on Hannah. He loved her just the way she was. The yearning for a child was Hannah's, not his. He had sons and daughters through Peninnah.
I'm intrigued by the whole thought process of Hannah's. For whom did she want this child? It wasn't for Elkanah's sake. It seems to me it wasn't even for her own internal maternal desire to raise a child -- she was giving the child away for somebody else to raise!!! It must have been for the purpose of stopping the abuse from Peninnah. What a reason to have a child - to make somebody like you - or at least to leave you alone. I can only hope Hannah had a support system somewhere in her life, but I don't see that she had anyone but God to talk to. Peninnah was surely no friend. She was a "rival", an opponent, an emotional abuser. Hopefully Hannah managed to avoid her as much as possible and talk to God as much as possible.
I'm guessing that if Hannah had a female child, she would not have been able to offer that child as a Nazarite, and she would have had no bargaining chip in her conversation with God.
All this is just pondering, perhaps of no value to anyone. That's fine; I'm just chewing on it at this point.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 11/10/2003
Time: 7:52:18 AM
Hi all. Have been away from preaching for a month or more - between congregations. I really do appreciate the thoughts i find here - especially this week's. I wish i had something insightful to add but don't at this time, rather just wanted to say "thank you". I am just starting in my new congregation and ask for your prayers. Deke of the North.
Date: 11/10/2003
Time: 8:43:48 AM
This story explains the circumstances leading to the birth of Samuel in a pious Israelite family. It exhibits the familiar Israelite motif of the devout barren wife who eventually conceives a son with the help of God.
It seemed that Hannah's womb would never produce children, only misery. In her distress, Hannah does not consider the future devoid of hope, however. She pleads for God to remember her. Remembrance is a powerful theme in Hebrew scriptures. God remembered Noah, and the waters subsided. God remembered Israel in Egypt, and deliverance came. God remembers Hannah, and her future breaks open with new life. Misery does not have the last word in Hannah's life. Promise does - and promise is fulfilled in Samuel's birth.
Date: 11/10/2003
Time: 12:04:13 PM
I feel strong compassion for Hannah. She was in the same boat with Sarah before Isaac was born. As I read the text, Elkanah and Eli were also compassionate toward Hannah. Elkanah loved her, gave her a double portion when he sacrificed, and consoled her in her misery. Eli is compassionate after he accuses her of drunkeness and she explains that she is praying. I was pleased to see this in Eli because of what happens to him because of his sons later. Eli had some good things to offer in ministry in spite of what happens at the end of his life. Finally, God is also compassionate in relation to Hannah, as her prayer petition is granted. The only one who is negative toward Hannah is Penninah (and that must be a woman/wife thing which some of you women preachers will have to explain to me). All in all, this is a touching, heart-warming story. I don't have a clue how to preach it, but I like it.
Creature Wayne
Date: 11/10/2003
Time: 12:21:40 PM
I suspect that there is something much more to this story than God answering the prayer of a woman who wanted a child. There is a very important motif of barren women in the Bible and miraculous conceptions that must not be overlooked. This passage about Hannah's pregancy needs to be told as part of the larger story, the spiritual barrenness of a people. Note that Hannah hands the child back to God to be taught by Eli and raised as a prophet. This is a story about Hannah's love of God--she responds to God's gift by offering it back. Her own personal fulfilment of finally having the child is secondary. She offered God a future spiritual/political leader. I visited several sermon sites on-line and not one site offered a sermon from this perspective ... most talked about Hannah as the model of motherhood and of answered prayer. (Curious not one of these sermons was written by a woman.) Problem is: if we preach a sermon from this narrow perspective couples in the congregation who are trying to conceive will feel frustrated--"We've prayed and our prayer hasn't been answered!" or we will have set up women once again to fail..."What woman can meet these expectations of motherhood!" No, I believe that the message of the passage lies in what we can offer to God in return for answered prayer. Hannah's gift was based on self-sacrifice and God's vision for the world, not hers. Hannah's prayer is relational--a conversation between her and God. Next week our church will celebrate the ordination of elders. The passage about Hannah anticipates the ordination rather nicely--the text will be Samuel's call. An aside: poor Eli. Not only does he mistaken Hannah's prayers for drunkenness, he also doesn't realise later that Samuel is being called ("I didn't call you.") Isn't it interesting that God overlooks the trained "official, institutional cleric" (Eli) and calls Samuel. Herein lies the future of the lay leadership in the church. Roberta p.s. DG in nyc are you preaching this week?
Date: 11/11/2003
Time: 4:26:26 AM
Instead of turning this text into a feminist tract, as some of you seem to be doing, I see this as a lesson in synergy -- God and humankind -- male and female, *** working together to fulfill the needs of humanity and the will of God. After ***, there is no suggestion of an "imaculate conception." Samuel came the old fashioned way and required elkanah's full participation. When will we get over this he-she antagonism and see that we are *** in this together. --NJ Moving Van
Date: 11/11/2003
Time: 4:26:30 AM
Instead of turning this text into a feminist tract, as some of you seem to be doing, I see this as a lesson in synergy -- God and humankind -- male and female, *** working together to fulfill the needs of humanity and the will of God. After ***, there is no suggestion of an "imaculate conception." Samuel came the old fashioned way and required elkanah's full participation. When will we get over this he-she antagonism and see that we are *** in this together. --NJ Moving Van
Date: 11/11/2003
Time: 6:22:10 AM
I think Elkanah is getting a bad rap! He's very concerned about her -- why do you not eat? Maybe he doesn't say all the right words, but he cares for her deeply and I see no reason to suspect that she doesn't appreciate it. I'm willing to speculate that his love is part of her strength. But desiring a child is a completely different thing from loving a spouse -- can't compare them, they're apples and oranges. Penninah and Eli, however, aren't worth much, I agree. It's Eli that calls her drunk, not her husband, and he's anything but pastoral toward her.
RevCes
Date: 11/11/2003
Time: 7:38:45 AM
If Elkanah loved Hannah so much, why didn't he tell Peninnah to shut up and protect Hannah from her? And if coming after your grief-stricken wife with questions like "Why are you crying? Why are you refusing to eat? Aren't I good enough for you?" are "consoling" words, then I've been consoling people in sad situations wrong all these years. ("Why are you sad about the death of your spouse and refusing to eat? Isn't your relationship with the rest of your family enough?)
Whatever else was going on in Hannah's world before her pregnancy, God responded and gave her this son, who ended up being one of the finest Biblical characters we meet. Hannah asked for any son, she got Samuel.
Anonymous
Date: 11/11/2003
Time: 8:14:37 AM
O come on, Anonymous. When you say "And if coming after your grief-stricken wife with questions like "Why are you crying? Why are you refusing to eat? Aren't I good enough for you?" are "consoling" words, then I've been consoling people in sad situations wrong *** these years" you seem to forget that Elkanah did not have the benefit of 2 years of CPE or two millenia of evolving insights into human behavior. Some of us are well-meaning clods when we are dealing with those we love in delicate situations. Give Elkanah a break. NJ Moving Van.
Date: 11/11/2003
Time: 8:17:52 AM
And by the way, Anonymous, it took not only God but also Elkanah to give Hannah her son (verse 19-20) -- Van
Date: 11/11/2003
Time: 8:22:23 AM
I am preaching on this "Hannah" text from the point of view of the movement from the prayer of lament to the prayer of praise. In a wonderful book entitled "Rachel's Cry," by Kathleen Billman and Daniel Migliore, they write that these two voices of prayer belong together in the practice of Christian faith. There is a quote from Walter Brueggemann: "Only grief permits newness, only lament makes way for praise." I hope to explore in this context the themes of barrenness and hope, emptiness and fullness, and our need today to express prayers of lament that move us closer to God and to prayers of praise and thanksgiving. Ruth in CT
Date: 11/11/2003
Time: 9:52:30 AM
Ruth in CT, your post and your idea remind me of a poem (author unknown) that begins:
"Thanksgiving is a psalm of lament that gives praises to God when all the complaining is done,
Knowing that life, in good times and in bad, belongs to the merciful One."
KyHoosierCat
Date: 11/11/2003
Time: 1:35:20 PM
Thanks so much Ruth in CT...that's exactly what I was looking for. Something that leads us deeper into the story. Can you say something more about the Billman book. A paragraph or two that spins out the ideas a bit more? I don't have access to it. In the process of moving through her barrenness, Hannah came to know God in a much more profound way. So profound, in fact, that she was able to dedicate her son to God--the very thing she wanted she returned as a symbol of her fulfilment. This is not a "feminist tract" -- this is an attempt to move the story beyond the stereotypes and easy answers of a superficial theology. God doesn't always answer our prayers, but we will find fulfilment and meaning in our conversation of prayer with God. (I've been teaching a world religions course to a high school class on the side this fall and I have a wonderful little story from Hinduism that talks about the spiritual gift of being able to give from the heart. I'll type it out if you'd like, Ruth.) Roberta
Date: 11/12/2003
Time: 6:56:37 AM
Hi, sorry if this is a bit off topic, i'm doing a children's talk and sunday school for our service this sunday, and i have absolutely *no idea* of what to do,i was hoping that someone on this board knew something that is quick and simple to set up?
thanks in advance
Date: 11/12/2003
Time: 12:42:21 PM
I never could judge Peneniah too harshly for provoking Hannah. I'd be jealous, too, if I was a co-wife and our husband preferred the one who wasn't me.
Sally in gA
Date: 11/12/2003
Time: 12:46:28 PM
KHC - I like your poem. It would work especially well if you paired up this OT reading with the Gospel reading.
Sally
Date: 11/12/2003
Time: 12:51:15 PM
We discussed this passage during Bible Study this morning. One thing we discovered is that Eli's reaction might have been a bit justified as it probably wasn't that uncommon for people to be drunk during this annual pilgrimage. As "The Interpreter's Bible" states: "There is evidence of drunken excess at feasts in later times (Amos 2:8; Isaiah 28:7) Eli, too, must have been accustomed to it..." The next comment is interesting also: "It was presumably usual to pray aloud, and Hannah's incoherence gave Eli sone excuse for error." There is no doubt that culturally we might make some assumptions here. However, while Eli doesn't promise Hannah anything, he does bless her. Once he hears her concern, his words seem compassionate and kind to me. There is certainly some thought provoking discussion going on here. However, we are celebrating the Sacrament of Baptism this Sunday and I wondered if any of you had any wisdom to share where this passage and Baptism are concerned. Thanks and blessings. Rev. Tim South Central Ontario, Canada
Date: 11/12/2003
Time: 2:42:36 PM
I appreciate the move to a deeper reading of this text. To look only at the "barren woman finally gets pregnant because she prays hard enough" motif on the surface is painful, I think. For me, anyway, as one who lost two pregnancies. (I do have the gift of two great kids.) Hannah just always seemed kind of obsessed to me, as one person pointed out, begging for a son just to turn him over after a few years.
But one thing that struck me was the peace she received, even before having gotten pregnant. She unloaded her heart, made her offer to God, received Eli's blessing, asked for his favor, and then went home to eat and drink with her husband. "...and her countenance was sad no longer."
I'm sure she wouldn't have stayed so peaceful if the baby hadn't come, but it really may be that the act of opening herself to God, of dedicating that which she desired most to make her life complete--pledging this was what brought her peace. This is the same as someone else has already said, so I guess I could have saved my breath! Thanks for the help on this; I was intrigued and attracted by the story but also struggled with where to go.
Laura in TX
Date: 11/12/2003
Time: 2:53:46 PM
For a Children's Talk, see www.talks2children.itsforministry.org
Date: 11/12/2003
Time: 3:11:59 PM
Laura in TX you are right. Thanks for your reflection, it really helped me to see that this story is about Spirituality, not (quote)"barren woman finally gets pregnant because she prays hard enough.
Hannah found peace and joy that came from her spiritual time with God. From lament, from offering, from recieving a blessing. Her peace came well before she found she was pregnant. In some ways this story is about her falling pregnant, but I believe way more than that, it is a beautiful story about relationships, longings, unfulfillment- and finding fulfillment and joy in God. Samuel came later...he was incidental maybe. S in Aus
Date: 11/13/2003
Time: 8:56:16 AM
Tim in South Central Ontario
For Baptism, I might pair this up with the Hebrews and/or Gospel. And your own words gave me this idea: "putting in a kind word." Eli's words, I agree, are very kind to Hannah. The promise, the hope of the Gospel is God's kind word to us, that our lamentation has to be no more because we are brought into a relationship with God.
I agree with the others: this isn't about getting pregnant (though, in a way it is, because as we all know, barrenness was seen to be a sort of punishment from, or being ignored by God), but about the unburdening of her soul. Although, I don't know if she would have gone back to being so burdened even if she HADN'T conceived.
Sally
Date: 11/13/2003
Time: 9:07:21 AM
PLW: I love your thoughts. This would be a good text to preach about the ways in which women continue to strive and scramble to "prove themselves," through extreme dieting, Botox, plastic surgery, etc. Male children may no longer be our primary goal (in fact, pregnancy causes those darn stretch marks, for which there are numerous creams and exercises to remove), but we are certainly not over proving ourselves as human beings, through meticulous care of our appearances, etc. I am not sure I will go in this direction, since I have a very elderly congregation and many of them are wonderfully well beyond caring so much how they look. But it may give me some good ideas. Happy preaching!
Peace, DHG
Date: 11/13/2003
Time: 9:18:49 AM
I am reminded that November is National Epilepsy Month, and that may work into this sermon. Here's why it's relevant to this text: There is a type of epilepsy in which sufferers experience what are known as partial seizures. Unlike the more well known tonic-clonic (or grand mal) seizures), sufferers do not lose consciousness or fall on the ground shaking in any dramatic way. In fact, one may not even notice that someone is having a partial seizure, because in many cases they may simply stare off into space. Okay, I'm digressing from the relevance: People who have partial seizures may appear to be "drunk" or "high," and police officers have often falsely arrested them for public drunkenness, because they may lose control of their actions, may react aggresively if touched, and may not be aware of what they are doing. I am reminded of Eli's initial reaction to Hannah when she was deep in prayer. Like I said, I am not sure quite how to work this into a sermon, but I am dealing with this in my personal life right now and saw the connection. It may also be a way to raise awareness for Epilepsy Month and do a little teaching, if not from the pulpit than in some sort of Bible study setting.
Peace, DHG
Date: 11/13/2003
Time: 2:11:13 PM
DHG, one of the great things about this forum is that we can hear a variety of ways this Scripture resonates with people. You saw a connection between Hannah's prayer and epilepsy which I would have never seen. In that light, I share this: I had a member in a former church who had that partial siezure condition you describe. Regularly, on Sunday mornings, she would suddenly stiffen, her eyes would sort of glaze over, and she sat in complete silence for a minute or two. Her husband, an overwhelmingly strong man, would feel her body contract, and would gently put his arm around her to support her - although I do believe it was more of a "when she comes out of this, I want her to know I'm here" support than an attempt to keep her from falling. While her condition distressed her, it was lovely to see this huge man doing all he could do for his tiny, tiny wife. He couldn't stop her problem from happening, but he gave what he could, and she loved him for it.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 11/14/2003
Time: 6:11:55 AM
As always, I am very late getting on here - so I usually don't even try to write. But I have always thought of Elkanah as the most wonderful husband, who cares less about society's standards that his wife isn't meeting, but loves her. I have used this in weddings to talk about the kind of love that is a commitment even when things aren't turning out as planned.
I was thinking of this as a love story - a love of a man that won't let go. A love of God who won't let the people go. There have been no prophecies for years, (which probably means no real listening for God) and God responds in love by sending a prophet, Samuel.
I may just be romanticizing too much.
Rachel
Date: 11/14/2003
Time: 6:17:23 AM
I, too, see Elkanah as a lovely example. It seems he was willing to let Hannah bring enough to the relationship the two had, just by bringing herself. lkinhc
Date: 11/14/2003
Time: 9:49:37 AM
Oh Rachel
I love your thoughts and your plans for the message. That is what is so wonderful about the word of God, because God speaks to us in different ways from the same Scripture, and no one has to be more correct than the other. This discussion this week has left we wondering about several things.
1. As Hannah prayed passionately to God for a child, have I ever "railed" to God. I realized that I have not, because I have always accepted what God had for me. Does that mean I am closer or more distant from God. (Don't worry, I know God and I will work that through.)
2. When God brings couples together, is it always for love and/or children. I think it can be for all of these. I know my relationship with my spouse is for children as Peninnah was with Elkahah, (and Leah, interesting Rachel that you would be the one to see the importance of the love Elkanah had for his wife Hannah). But I can see that as God could work with Elkanah and Hanah for a child, so God could work with Elkanah and Peninnah, for a relationship of love.
Wow, is there a lot in this Pericope!
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 11/14/2003
Time: 10:10:48 AM
Rachel,
I love your perspective on this story being a love story, of a man who wouldn't let go, and a God who wouldn't let go of his people. It is a wonderful alternative to the perspective we have heard the most about this passage, of Hannah's prayer, obedience, and sacrifice. Thanks for the new twist. And who says there isn't romance in the Bible? :-)
Susan in Wa.
Date: 11/14/2003
Time: 1:04:11 PM
And yet, Pearl S. Buck's novel, "The Good Earth" comes to mind.
Remember when he marries his 2nd wife, a high-class prostitute with beauty and small feet (having been bound) and the first one cries and says "But I have borne you sons!" She loved the husband and did her own thing to protect him and show him that love.
I wonder whether she provoked the "pretty" wife with small feet?
Sally
Date: 11/14/2003
Time: 1:22:23 PM
Thanks Sally, I like that "our lamentation has to be no more because we are brought into a relationship with God." Because that is what baptism is, being brought or a brining of ourselves, into relationship with God as part of the Church Universal. Simply effective. Rev. Tim
Date: 11/14/2003
Time: 1:22:47 PM
Pardon the spelling mistakes. Tim
Date: 11/14/2003
Time: 1:26:29 PM
There are always exceptions Sally. Perhaps the commandment, thou shalt not covet can apply to relationship also. For me knowing that I was able to provide children is not love, but it is enough, and I am respected. Humanity is just that, human. In gratitude to God, I thank God for my marriage, my journey and my life.
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 11/15/2003
Time: 7:20:00 AM
I just read this in a newspaper I subscribe to. It was written by The Rev. Amy S. Gall Ritchie, Director of Student Development at Bethany Theological Seminary (Church of the Brethren) in Richmond, IN. I'm coming in on the middle of her contribution, which she introduces by talking about the dreariness and spirit-lowering aspect of rainy, cold weather.
"I like to think of rainy days as Days for the Psalms. Days that we can pull up a comfy cushion and let the Bible drop open to the middle, to the heart, and read the writings of those who knew fear, alienation, sorrow, anger....and hope.
Just when the writers of these poetic expressions start to rant and fume, weep and lash out, they are reminded that God is faithful within it all. God's order is perfect, even when life is chaotic. God reaches out to pull us under the unbrella of hope and mercy.
Our hearts need moments to weep like the sky, to rage like the wind, to curl into the comforting presence of a divine God." (end)
I liked it, and thought it may fit in with the Hannah story for some of you.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 11/15/2003
Time: 8:08:26 PM
NJ Moving Van: To answer your query: Because women were traditionally treated as worthless, outside of their ability to bear male children, in ancient Israel. While the situation has largely improved for women, we still have to struggle. Many churches will still refuse to call women pastors, even when they say they "support" women in ministry. I find this text interesting in that Elkanah is so supportive of his wife, despite her inability to bear his children. I also have not observed any posts this week that "turn this text into a feminist tract" or that propose a male-female rivalry. This is an important story, because Hannah, a woman, was supported by her husband and listened to by a male priest (even though he first accused her of drunkenness). Because women are often not named in the Bible or are given roles of lesser important, either in the Biblical texts themselves or in subsequent interpretations (the legend that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, for example), I believe it IS important to preach about women from time to time. This does not mean that Elkanah and Eli are not important to this story, or that Hannah has greater Biblical importance over her son Samuel. It simply means that Hannah is the central character of this pericope, and that is something to raise up from the pulpit. Grace and peace, DHG
Date: 1/21/2004
Time: 1:38:19 PM
fuck u