Here in Canada we shall be celebrating "Remembering Sunday" (held to celebrate Rembembrance Day on November 11th, declaring the end of WWI by remembering all those who have died in all the great wars and often used to promote world peace)
There is a song that has been sung here in Canada entitled "Where have all the flowers gone?" which asks where have all the young men gone? They of course have gone to fight in the war, and the song explains how those at home feel left alone with the knowledge of how many have lost their lives.
I couldn't help but think how this Scripture might serve as a wonderful contrast between the men who have "disappeared" in a twinkling of an eye through world wars and the "disappearing" anticipated with the rapture that is to occur with the second coming.
Any thoughts or further suggestions?
Pastor Dave in BC Canada
Date: 01 Nov 1999
Time: 06:13:38
Where have all the flowers gone, was sung here in the U.S. during the turbulent Vietnam era. I like the comparision, though I'm wondering if on this All Saint's Day, as we approach the Y2K hysteria, maybe this could be broadened to all those who disappear from our lives in a twinkling of an eye.
The hope and celebration being grounded in the faith that the dead in Christ shall rise.
early thoughts at a late hour.
KelWA
Date: 01 Nov 1999
Time: 13:21:18
Any comments on whether this passage supports the idea of the *Rapture*?
This passage is wonderful news to the Thessalonians worrying about the eternal state of their brs. and srs. who have died. Since they were expecting the soon return of Jesus, they began to worry about those who died before He returned. What wonderful reassurance that God had it all covered.
John near Pitts.
Date: 01 Nov 1999
Time: 20:09:21
I read this passage as a comforting word to a struggling church. All new churches dealt with struggles from without and within, and this is a church seeking doctrinal identity. They want to know the answers to the tough questions of life, like "where do I go when I die?" and "Will Grandpa be in heaven?"
I also have difficulty seeing this as a discourse on the Apocalypse, or Rapture, or other end-time events because it is preceded by commands to live a holy life, and followed by commands to be ready at all times, loving one another (in essence, leading a holy life). I think the message is this: no matter when Jesus returns, or how, if we are prepared, we will be OK.
This is my first submission, but I have greatly enjoyed reading contributions from all sources! Preach the Word until He comes!
UMPreach
Date: 02 Nov 1999
Time: 13:44:36
*The dead in Christ* Good place to address All Saints Sunday. What does it mean to be *dead in Christ*? I've often thought of the question, what does it mean to be alive in Christ? This might be an interesting twist. How will you die? In whom will you die? Hmm, I'd rather be dead in Christ than alive in Satan. (But if it was up to me, I think I'd rather be one of those yet alive being caught up in the clouds. This might be one time that I wouldn't mind being last :-)
John near Pitts.
Date: 02 Nov 1999
Time: 14:44:56
Hello All, Just some initial thoughts: THis is an apocalyptic letter, most of the New Testament was. That is not saying that it is filled with wierd beasts or heavily veiled symbols; however, it does mean that it is saying there will be an end, a judgement, a cataclysmic event, etc. Just because it does not go into detail about those things, does not remove it from the genre. Here is what I appreciate about what UMPreach said: it is a discourse on holy life, how to live with others, being ready. Much of Revelation is taking that battle of good versus evil in our life from the personal to the cosmic level. How to live a holy life in this letter can only be understood today in the cosmic significance it was held then. Being unready was tantamount to participating in Satan's kingdom, not God's. Follow UMPreach's advice. This letter is not a letter that supports or denies rapture. It just doesn't address the idea. Yes, it says there will be a resurrection but what form exactly that resurrection will take is vague at best. Which is as it should be.
Also: addressing what it means to be dead in Christ could be used as a double edged sword! I had not thought about it before! Good point! You could call the sermon, "Church of the Living Dead" if you take one track or if you take the other, more positive track, you could title it, "Undead Faith."
Just some initial thoughts and responses. God bless. Kurt in IN
Date: 03 Nov 1999
Time: 13:03:48
Reading the posts (esp. Kurt in IN--"Church of the Living Dead") made me think of something J. Pelikan wrote in his book, *Vindication of Tradition* that went something like this: "Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living."
The "Church of the living dead" could then be seen as a positive continuation of the faith handed down through tradition (not traditionalism--a subtle difference but an important one).
ml in pa
Date: 04 Nov 1999
Time: 01:17:07
This text is the "Rapture" text. The term comes from the Latin translation of 4:17 referring to being "caught up". However, I think the point of the text is to comfort people who have lost loved ones and who think those loved ones are going to miss out on something. Offering the hope that gone does not mean forgotten is probably going to be more helpful than a great deal of speculation concerning the various theories related to the "Rapture," esp. on All Saints Sunday. NGA in Iowa.
Date: 04 Nov 1999
Time: 12:59:22
Since All Saints Day was closer to last Sunday we celebrated it last week. I also combined the emphasis for Nov. 14 which is the day of prayer for the persecuted Church. They have a great website: http://www.persecutedchurch.org It is amazing how much is happening to our brothers and sisters throughout the world. Perhaps using some of this material can be tied in with those who are dead in Christ. Dead from persecution and not simply natural causes.
John near Pitts.
Date: 04 Nov 1999
Time: 14:34:05
Pastor Dave: I am trying to connect All Saint's Day with Remembrance Day. We have the "Vets" doing a large part of the service. We have a person playing the trumpet for the last post, but also a bagpiper who will play in memory of those who past from life to life this past year. Names will be lifted by congregants (in case I forget one or two) and a central candle lit in memory. The Revelations reading for November 1st and the gospel for NOvember 1st seem to work. Check out the contribution with "remembrance day\All Saints DAy" in mind. If you have any brilliant ideas, I would love to hear about them!!! Rev.WWM in Quebec
Date: 04 Nov 1999
Time: 14:36:36
I am hoping to use this text as a source of comfort to those in my parish who have not only loved ones this year, but have experienced other kinds of losses as well. As I read it Paul is affirming the reality of three things. One, that death and loss are a part of the human experience. Two, that Christians need to affirm the reality of loss and death and grieve. Third, the good news that for those who place their trust in the God of Jesus Christ loss and death are never the end, but the beginning of something new. Finally, in the midst of the reality of loss and death we are called as brothers and sisters in Christ to encourage and uphold one another with the reality of these truths. Any stories or comments that might help illusrate would be welcome. Thanks, nc
Date: 05 Nov 1999
Time: 05:11:59
As another Canadian working on the Remembrance Sunday theme, I'm recalling all the years that I went to the Cenotaph on Remembrance Day (this was back when we didn't have school that day, and most families I knew headed to the park for the laying of the wreaths, Last Post etc). There was an eery kind of "presence" on those Remembrance Days.... I still feel it, and I attend every year. It's as if for that one, typically cold, November morning, God gathered up those who served and died, those who served and lived, and those whose lives had never been close to war, but need to learn from it. It's as if all of these are gathered into God's presence and for a little while, with cold feet and chattering teeth, we experience the cloud of witnesses hovering a bit closer to us.
Every year, I get a brief glimpse of Paul's vision of that gathering up in God's realm. Every year, it feels more holy.
Blessings, SueCan
Date: 06 Nov 1999
Time: 06:22:04
To Rev WWM in Quebec; check out my explanation about your comparison of All Saints to Remembrance Day in the Revelation section of November 1st lection. Pastor Dave in BC Canada
Date: 07 Nov 1999
Time: 11:10:03
For my fellow desperate preachers who are still at this late time (Sun a.m at 6:00, EST), I would like to say that my sermon is called, "People of Hope" reflecting on paul's statement: I would not want you to be as those who have no hope. Isn't that what it is all about? Preaching a message of hope in a dying world? So those who have died, and those who are still alive, both have the priviledge of being alive in Christ.
Jeff, NY