All for One and One for All
Because the Lord ransomed Himself for all, we should be in thankful prayer for all.
informal poll--how many feel called to preach about the need for prayer for the president (v.2)?
Well, my first response to prayer for the prez is a rather tacky: in my church (denom) we pray for him every Sunday. Having taken a few days to ponder your challenge, I have also to do away with my second response: I m too repulsed.... Ok, so now, having gotten to where Sunday School happens after worship, and the kids worship with us, and the sermon needs to reach them, too, do I preach forgiveness (the woman caught in adultery), do I preach prayer for our enemies (that's a push), do I continue to ignore the whole fiasco? Truth is, most typical confession I hear is marital infidelity. God forgives you -- now cut it out! Can God work through our president? Has God worked through elected leaders and royalty and dictators in the past?
Well, you have me thinking, pondering, even praying. Will I preach it? God only knows!
HW in HI
"for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity." I guess we should pray for the wicked-one (having adulterous sex with a subordinate less than half your age is just plain wicked.). But I am weary of him.
Re the question of prayer for the President. As someone from outside the USA, I believe the President needs our prayers more than our condemnation.
grahams@gil.com.au
As someone from outside the USA, I believe the President needs our prayers more than he needs our condemnation.
grahams@gil.com.au
Sorry for the double up.
Just some questions I have been thinking about these past few days: If we hold someone in a "high office" more accountable than anyone else, are we not playing with lessening redemption? Can they not continue in their present situation? In other words, if I am a common every day Joe, my standards are not as high as someone like a "king"? I can sin. Be forgiven and continue in the job I’m doing. I get a little weary when we are not all on level ground. Some how I get the impression that many feel like forgiveness is advocating what people do. If we forgive, then what the "hey." Do we forget the price Jesus paid for all sin? When forgiveness is granted, it hasn't come cheap. What do we make of people who say, "forgiveness" is not enough? Whose blood do we really want? Thanks for thinking with me. RM in Summerville.
Rm in Sommerville,
I'd like to respectfully disagree with you. In fact I believe you've got it a bit backwards. Rm, if you or I were guilty of lying under oath, to a Grand Jury or in civil court, might we be able to ask for forgiveness for doing do and at the same time declare our innocence because, after all, we're being 'legally accurate'?
Would we swear on a Bible and to God to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth and then define that truth in legalistic language to avoid the consequences of the fact that we've actually lied, to God and to the courts?
It seems that we've taken the idea that one must not judge to mean that standards of behavior are to be set aside or lowered. The idea that one must forgive has been misinterpreted to mean that one need not repent genuinely to receive forgiveness. The idea that truth exists has been misinterpreted to mean that only truth as defined by the individual exists.
There's no doubt that each of us fall short of the glory of God and that each of us are born with a sin nature in need of God's grace. And I'm the first to be in need of His grace.
However, there is a doctrine of sanctification that we as Christians must begin to re-introduce to the Church. God desires a changed life-style for the believer. Remember that we are supposed to be in the process of conversion.
I'm troubled by two things theses days. I'm troubled by public officials who swear on a Bible and to God to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and then play semantic word games about being legally accurate. YetI'm even more troubled by people of faith who are settling for the lowering of standards because after all, the economy is strong.
I think the theological pendulum, which historically seems to swing from a period in which grace is absent to a time when grace is cheapened, has swung to the latter in a major way.
I do think that we've forgotten the price that Jesus paid. I think we've taken it for granted.
So someone please help me with my hermaneutics. I firmly believe in God's grace for all, including this President. And God can and will restore Bill Clinton (and I'm not talking about his salvation for you folks quick to label me a condemner and judger). However, the process of sanctification is a Scripturally inspired doctrine that the Church must re-emphasize. And sanctification requires the believer to die to self and yield to the Holy Spirit. That is the focus of my prayers for me, for Bill Clinton, for the Church, and for this nation.
Rick in Va.
Last Sun., in lieu of our regular invocation, I asked our congregants to gather at our altar as we would for communion, and pray for - 1. Our president, that his confession might become repentence... That his life and legacy as a human being and God's child might be salvaged... 2. For his family, that forgivness and love might overcome this myriad of hurts... 3. For Monica Lewinksy, whom I fear is far more representitive of a generation the church has failed, and has become a poster child for harlotry.... that she might find God... 4. For the presidents friends, whom he has used to his own ends, often at a terrible financial and emotional cost, that they might forgive... 5. For Kenneth Starr and his associates, who must go on with their lives in a spotlight, having done what their government asked them to do... 6. For our congress... The choices they must make at a criticle point in history should over ride our cynicism about government and charicatures of them as ineffective... 7. For ourselves as citizens... "We the people..." The theoretical true government of the nation...
Even this lengthy bit is only part of my plea, but response was extraordinary - JHWBP@aol.com
This is the first time I’ve ever used this site at a time when I truly felt like a "desperate preacher", but I could really use everyone’s and anyone’s help with this one: There’s a legend about an old man who asks a question of --- was it a girl or a guy? -- holding out a young bird in his hand. He asks, "Tell me, is the bird in my hand dead or alive?" The young man/woman knew that if they answered "alive, the old man would crush the young bird, thereby killing it. If he/she answered "dead", he would hold out the living bird. So --- and here’s the punch line: he/she answered, "The answer is "you will decide". Now --- it’s obvious I don’t recall all the details of this story, so here’s what I’m asking: has anyone else heard this one? Can you tell me the details I’m missing? Please???!! If you’d like to just e-mail me, my address is ktully@ionet.net Thank you!
Rick in VA,
Thanks for your words of response. Help me with one thing. If Jesus paid it all, what else is there to give? I ask this seeking direction. Again, thanks for giving me more to think about. RM in SUmmerville.
Rm in Summerville,
What more is there to give? In terms of what Christ paid, and in the shadow of the cross and the context of salvation... nothing. There is absolutely nothing we can give to add to the finished work of Christ's death on the cross for our sins and our eternal rest.
But look for a moment at the story of Zacchaeus in Luke 19 and the following parable. It seems clear that Christ does not diminish restitution in this story and then implies it indirectly in Matthew 5:23-24 when he admonishes his followers to be reconciled to his brother before bringing a gift to the altar. I haven't a firm answer as to what restitution Mr. Clinton should offer this country, but I believe his resignation is necessary because he broke a public trust he took an oath to uphold.
Again, I do not question the President's salvation, his eternal destiny, for that would truly be judgement and/or condemnation. I question his trustworthiness, his integrity based on his self-admitted problems with both. Someone needs to convince me that Christ's admonishment against judgement/condemnation is an admonishment against discernment/prudence. When we as parents choose to hire/fire a babysitter, do we use judgement/condemnation or discernment/prudence? When as pastor/administrators we choose a ministry assistant/underling, do we use judgement/condemnation or discernment/prudence? I believe those who think that this President must go are not condemning or judging the man, they are discerning and prudently deciding based on the evidence, that the country would be better off.
Rm, thank you for your kindness of spirit.
Rick in Va.
Rick in Va.
Bill Clinton surely has given us a bunch of sermon material. Anyone in a current dry spell is purposely avoiding the current context and the word Scripture speaks to it.
I called my congregation to prayer sereval weeks ago while preaching from Jeremiah 1:4-10. I basically asked my congregation, "Do we have a prophetic voice?" What do we, the church, have to say about the current crisis, the situation, morality, confession, repentance, forgiveness? I laid my hands on a couple of our young boys (10 yrs old) and declared that they knew what was going on - they see the news, hear us talk, joke with tir friends, but what do they hear from the church? Jeremiah was called to speak a word from the Lord. He was appointed over nations and kingdoms not just to tear down and destory, but also to build and to plant. Do we have a prophetic voice? Yes and that always involves prayer. Before we talk to another person about God, we first have to talk to God about that person. Prayer is the starting place and empowering point of our ministry. Pray for all people.
Saying all that, I probably mention the President again this week, but I believe I want to go in the direction of prayer for all people. Our patience in waiting for answers, our persistance, our unselfishness for others. Would like help in this area.
One last lesson: Last night while watching the world news, I saw President Clinton getting off the helicopter and walking across the lawn of the White House. Dangling from his hand was a maroon, gold bound, Ryrie Study Bible. I got mad and yelled at the screen, "Get that Bible out of your hand." I rationalize that he was carrying it for show like the Pharisees who would wear their phylactries (Mt 23:5) for show. However, the Holy Spirit convicted me: Here is a man who has declared his faith in Jesus Christ, has publically stated his confession, repentence, and has asked for forgiveness. Maybe that Bible is a sign that he is seeking guidance. As a fellow Christian, I should pray for his soul, guidance, forgiveness instead of being angry and despite what political consequences he may face and suffer.
Kingdom DJ
Rick in VA,
Thank you for taking time to help me understand. I now see where you are coming from. Excellent reference. I agree. RM in Summerville.
Why should we pray for kings? What have they to do with us? It is the rich who persecute us and throw us into prison. Pray for them so that we in the kingdom may lead peaceable and godly lives. Pray for them because Christ has died for all and God wants universal salvation. I think that We need to pray for the President. I also think we should be very careful about being caught up in the spin of one side or the other in political debate. Lewis
To ktully@ionet.net
Yeah, I've heard the story, too. It seems you have all the important stuff.
However, I heard that it was a YOUNG punk who held the bird and a wise OLD man who knew the answer. I wonder if the age swap that you heard has anything to do with our cultures worship of youth? Just wondering.
KenTucky
"I also think we should be very careful about being caught up in the spin of one side or the other in political debate. "
Lewis,
It would seem that the Church in Germany in the 1930's took the same attitude.
No, I'm not calling Clinton a Hitler, but yes, I'm worried about the consequences to this country of complacency and apathy and yes affirmation of corrupt behavior.
Remember Lewis, the man has admitted to adultery (or what 'legally accurately' calls something else). It's time those in the pulpit set aside the touchy feely about this and speak up for integrity and honesty in all leaders. He is consistently dishonest. His legal strategy shows that he continues to dis-regard truth and honesty.
I believe it's time that the pulpits of this country, for the sake of future generations, speak of genuine repentence, accompanied with contriteness, and those leaders who fail to live up to these standards must go.
In a sermon a week or so ago at the National Cathedral, A modern day Nathan, Nathan Baxter, preached on morality.
"The real power of politics is moral," he said. "Therefore, in leadership, immodesty or immorality is never private, for it affects the ability of a people to grant permission to lead." Society's obsession with material wealth, he said, has allowed us to tolerate moral irresponsibility. "What has happened to a nation more concerned about its wallet than its soul?" he asked. "What has happened, regardless of the politics around it, is morally unacceptable."
Mr. Baxter also took on the notion, frequently quoted by some defenders of the president, not to judge others lest we be judged. He said holding the president accountable for his admitted acts is not judging but acknowledging a painful truth: "... our desire to keep sin private or ignore immorality is a judgment upon all of us.... Unless we acknowledge moral failing-without excuse-the soul of our nation will not heal."
Mr. Clinton is not the only person on trial. It's becoming clearer that the character of this country is also on trial. The Shepherds in pulpits across this country must lead decisively and preach for a return to the election of men with character, honesty and integrity.
Mr. Clinton's continued truth spinning, where one moment he is contrite and apologetic before a sampling of religious leaders, and the next moment he is allowing his lawyers to continue to deny the very statements he was apologizing about earlier, is positive proof that we cannot trust him. And if public trust is lost, the ability to govern effectively has been lost as well...
For the sake of this nation's ability to heal, Mr. Clinton must resign.
Sorry... Forgot to 'sign' the last post.
Rick in Va.
This has been a fascinating discussion this week. I too am going to deal with the issue at hand. How can you ignore this scripture while reading hearing the news? The approach I am hoping to take with the sermon is that we are called to pray for those in authority. I read somewhere (Help, I know not where!) that an authentic prayer is one that seeks the what is best for the one we pray for. How many times have we prayed for what is best for President Clinton? My fear is that we have all been caught up in the political morass to the point that we no longer see a person. We either take a stance to condemn and demand impeachment, or we feel like we must defend someone whom we do not trust. It may be that prayer is the only thing that is left. It may not change the situation, but it might change those of us who pray. Don in SC
I noticed that either nobody could post contributions on Tuesday, or all of Tuesday's contributions got erased. In either case I want to apologize for the inconvenience. In order to control costs I had to switch accounts (since DPS had already reached the "allowed hit" ceiling this month). The switchover must have affected the ability to post. But things should be back to normal now. Thanks for your patience . . . Frank, DPS
I've found a column worthy of clerical perusal (in my humble opinion at least).
It's at http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/09-19-98/closing_1.asp
Please read and comment if one deems it's connected to the lectionary text.
Thanks,
Rick in Va.
Rick,
I checked it out. Don't know if it relates to the lection, but I must admit that I thought of David when I heard the Prez's "I have sinned" speech.
There are definite paralells.
Rod in Pixley
The "president situation" has been dealt with for 2or 3 weeks already at our churches. I believe I am going to point out that God wants EVERYONE saved. And we should offer prayers for everyone, even those we don't like. Also might point out that don't have to know exactly what to say in prayer. Just thinking! PS in IA
I wish the President had only lied to protect himself and his family from public exposure and censure, but that is not what happened. President Clinton lied, and encouraged Lewinsky and others to help him deceive the court where Paula Jones had filed a lawsuit against him. President Clinton lied about money. He wanted to avoid paying her what he owed her. He, like O. J. Simpson, wanted to avoid a civil court defeat because he knew people would judge him guilty in other areas as well. President Clinton did not lie to protect anything other than his wallet and his power. By lying, he deprived Paula Jones of her day in court. This case is just that simple (although our emotions make it hard for us to swallow). President Clinton lied for personal gain, just like any common thief. Consider what it means if we as a nation decide to let this pass. Anyone else would be given the freedom to lie, too. If your boss harasses you and you take him to court for damages, he can lie. Should he be caught, he can publicly repent and do so without fear of financial punishment, not even the loss of his job! I am glad Bill Clinton appears to others to be truly repentant. I pray he is. Like Rick, I don't judge his relationship with the Lord. However, I do want him punished for the same reason I want other "repentant sinners" in prison to be punished. I want some protection from the predators in this world. I want a justice system that at least approximates justice. I don't want to be reduced to vigilanteism in order to protect my family. Bill Clinton lied for money and power--in a way no different from what your boss might do in a similar situation. This is not about sex. It's not even about lying under oath. This case is about our system of laws. Bill Clinton's actions have undermined their very foundation. He has to be impeached and put into prison if possible in order for them to be restored. God bless you, sandy@minister.com
I've just glanced at the other responses. Last week, I included the President and both houses of Congress in our prayers, praying that the President might continue to face up to the reality of his sins, and that Congress might act with wisdom, justice, and in accordance with God's will in making its decisions. I, too, agree that there is a dissonance between Clinton's well-stated and seemingly sincere apology/confession and his insistance on mounting a vigorous legal defense. If you are planning on going in this direction, you might want to extend the Jeremiah reading one verse to 9:2 (English-it's 9:1 in the Hebrew) which talks about adutlerous leadership. (Some versions may say idolatrous, as adultery is commonly used as a metaphor/idiom for idolatry in Hebrew, but the original is adulterous.) But I'm not planning on dealing with those issues this week, except perhaps in prayer. This is Christian Education Sunday for us (Sometimes known as Rally Day), and I am focusing more on the idea of coming to know the truth (v. 4) and our (meaning the congregation's) appointment as heralds and apostles--as teachers of our children, our members, our communities in faith and truth. Thanks much for this site, and all your contributions. I don't submit comments very often, but I almost always read what others have shared. Lorinda in IA
Hi everybody, This is also Rally Day for us. We're having an intergenerational worship service, no jr. church. Which means whatever we do has to be kid friendly. I am contacting all of our political leaders and asking them for specific prayer requests that we can remember on Sunday. I tried e mail but didn't have much luck. All circuits are tied up with the primary and with the Starr report. So I'm going to try telephoning. I'm upset with our president for many of the same reasons that you all have mentioned. But even Newt Gingrich is cautious about saying what congress should do at this point. So I am also very cautious about taking a public stand in regards to impeachment/resignation. I feel that the office of the presidency should be respected enough to allow due process to occur. In the meantime, let's pray. As someone else said, prayer may not change the situation, but it will change us. Larry from cny.
Did not Christ say I do not condemn you, but go and sin no more. I think we as Christians lose the point and especially as Christian pastors if we are as condemning as the Pharisee of Jesus' time. Yes, He lied under oath and yes he has sinned. Then what is the confession part mean to any Christian are we not to forgive? Are we not in the forgiving business? I think we forget that there is only one judge and that is the Lord God Almighty. Maybe it time to get back to scriptural holiness and see what your are talking about. I hope that we do one thing that this scripture asks us to is pray. Also it may be wise to read the first chapter which was the lectionary for last week. Do you not remember that we are all sinners, Hello. We need to show compassion and forgiveness, that is what will heal. You might want to reread scripture, I do not remember Christ being worried about some of the things going on, but he worried about our relationship with God.
Was Jesus compassionate and forgiving when he cleared the temple? Was he compassionate and forgiving when he called the Pharisees 'white-washed tombs', 'hypocrites', and 'brood of vipers'? Reread Paul's writings. Reread Jesus' words as well, in their entirety. There are many times when they seem, to today's post-modern, post-Christian mindset, quite judgmental. Following the logic of the unsigned post above, we must empty all our prisons of those who have verbalized their sorrow. Never mind a change of behavior, never mind the bearing of fruit, as Scripture demands. Just set them free. I think if we rely on our feelings about this, we fall into trouble. We need to follow the law of the land, a law that has come about under God's sovereign reign and we need to punish the law-breakers. Otherwise, inevitably, anarchy happens. I can forgive Clinton's indiscretion. He is, like me, a fallen human being. He must however suffer the consequences. Rick in Va.
As somebody from England, I will not be putting great weight on Bill Clinton in my sermon but the level of discussion does raise some interesting points. How much does the sinfulness of our leaders effect our view of the level of sin within our nations? This level of corruption is nothing new to the American presidency. For example, everybody knows that Kennedy was never whiter than white. Our politicians in England, have also from time to time been caught in compromising situations. The reality is though that these issues are only a distraction from the vastly more important issues of 3rd world debt, the Russian economic crisis, global polution and poverty for example. It is interesting that our eyes are distracted from these issues by the immense personal moral responsibility that we place on our leaders. I pray to God that nobody puts my weaknesses (of which I have many) under such agonising scrutiny.
In this passage, Paul asks us to pray for our leaders that they get it it right and in this the bedroom is relatively low on my list of priorities for them. After all, these, and this includes Bill Clinton, are only human beings and prone to the same mistakes made by Adam and all his descendents.
There is only one who breaks this crippling cycle who is also, we are told, a human being. It is him, and him a alone, to whom we should look for ethical, spiritual and political mediation. Maybe our emphasis on moral perfection in our national leaders is just a thread away from national idolatry. God in Christ, is thankfully working on a bit of each of us at a time. We pray also that he might chip away at the edges of our politicians.
I can't help feeling that I should say something in my sermon about being human. I am convinced that that is the core of what God asks of us. If you have any further thoughts along these lines that could help me with my very English sermon then I would appreciate it.
This is the first time that I have contributed to this site and I am very greatfull for the wisdom that I have stolen from you in the past.
God bless
Eric
I think some of our discussion of the President and his problems is a little off base. It's all too easy to use the President as "text" and Eisagete our way back to the Bible. Several thoughts: * We complain about the legalism of the President's lawyers, but isn't that what they're supposed to do? By the way, in Orthodox Jewish practice, Clinton *has not* committed adultery; the woman has to be married for that to be the case. * We as Christians should especially be a little careful about throwing stones; our history is filled with excellent leaders who made horrendous personal mistakes. * To declare the sinfulness of his sexual actions and, at best, the obfuscation of his responses to legal questions, doesn't automatically move us to the "Impeach him!" or "He should step down" position. I think we are too quick to assume that our position is the Biblical one, rather than being culturally conditioned to a large extent. * I find it amazing that anyone would be upset to see him carrying a Bible after all this! * To compare taking a stand against Clinton to taking a stand against Hitler is just plain offensive. Franz Hildebrandt, the Treasurer of the Confessing Movement and imprisoned several times by the SS for praying for church leaders in Prussia, said that the ocassions on which the church must simply stand up and say "NO" are not that frequent. This would certainly *not* qualify from his perspective. Nuclear proliferation would! (Papa Franz died several years ago, but I draw my opinion of his perspective from speeches and conversations over the years. Shalom Luther