Date: 03 Jul 2000
Time: 13:20:55
Have mercy! I wish I had any idea how to preach this text...
Looking forward to the few, the brave, the 'third heaven' preachers!
Jim Dennis Bamberg
Date: 03 Jul 2000
Time: 18:07:20
Count me in. I love this passage. Paul's time in the "Third Heaven" is very mystical. He lets it slip here that something very special and rather incredible was his to glimpse for a time. Will try to post more this week -- just now starting to live with the text. Blessings,
--- Dave K. in Ohio <><
Date: 03 Jul 2000
Time: 20:03:33
So far, this feels connected to the gospel text this week, urging me to develop the theme of "making room for others to grow". If Paul had as strong a personality as he was driven in the faith, it must have been hard to be in the same room with him and feel like you had anything of worth to say. He knows he has had an amazing experience, yet how could he empower others to grow in God's love and grace unless he stood aside? This may be an ironic message for pastors (self included!) who find we are the only ones left talking, anywhere! (You can take the preacher out of the pulpit, but...)
Luckily, God has left us flawed, if we will admit it, and in our weakness we allow others to work on completing the picture God would paint.
Blessings, Bootheel Rick
Date: 04 Jul 2000
Time: 02:02:29
I think living with Paul would have been a challenge to put it lightly! As a pastoral minister I was always over awed by the abilities of others. It took many years to realize that I brought many gifts and a special outlook to the preaching of the gospel and the worship of the community that supports it. It took many years I have have more time to separate many of the issues that are not really all that important. And there are other thorns that disrupt this continued outlook.
Date: 04 Jul 2000
Time: 02:04:04
I think living with Paul would have been a challenge to put it lightly! As a pastoral minister I was always over awed by the abilities of others. It took many years to realize that I brought many gifts and a special outlook to the preaching of the gospel and the worship of the community that supports it. It took many years I now have more time to separate many of the issues that are not really all that important. And there are other thorns that disrupt this continued outlook.
Date: 04 Jul 2000
Time: 14:07:30
Does anyone have any striking contemporary examples to illustrate verse 9, " (God's) power is made perfect in weakness." PK in Ohio
Date: 04 Jul 2000
Time: 22:47:24
<Does anyone have any striking contemporary examples to illustrate verse 9, " (God's) power is made perfect in weakness." PK in Ohio>
WELL, JUST OFF THE top of my head, I'm thinking of the first step of Alcoholics Anonymous, in which people admit that they are powerless over alcohol. It is in this admission of lack of power (or weakness) that God's power can and often is made perfect through the miracle of sobriety. That's one, and I'm sure there are many others. . . . For instance, when I was a teen-ager and a young adult, I was terrified of public speaking . . . and yet in 1992, at the age of 38, God called me to the ordained ministry, and here I am . . . speaking "in public" quite often -- and for the most part loving it! Dave K. in Ohio <><
Date: 05 Jul 2000
Time: 00:55:35
an out of the body experience? Kewl. There is plenty of material on near death experiences that relates very much to this particular new testiment experience.
Date: 05 Jul 2000
Time: 03:47:18
Does this remind anybody else of Casablanca, "I knew a man?" Why does Paul start off such a powerful discussion about weakness and strength in LaLa land? He said he would boast about somebody else before boasting about himself. Interesting in Church administration. What I find the most interesting in this text is that God uses our lest brag qualities, our shame, embarrass, wish I could get rid of qualities so that I could minister effectively. The parts of our lives that have caused the most pain are the most usable qualities in our sharing our faith. I knew a preacher who stuttered, it made everybody listen more as they labored with him. PJ
Date: 05 Jul 2000
Time: 13:14:49
I suspect that one approach to the text is to deal with Paul's "thorn in the flesh" which apparently refers to some sort of illness. Paul (a man of great faith) prays three times to be healed, but the healing doesn't come. Instead, God's answer is "my grace is sufficient for you." With so many healing stories in the Gospel Lessons (e.g. last Sunday), isn't this a good text to reflect on the question of suffering and the ways God answers the prayers of those who suffer? At least, that's the way I intend to approach the text.
CSS
Date: 05 Jul 2000
Time: 15:55:12
PK in Ohio: Check out Billy Strayhorn's personal story in his sermon on this text at Sermon Central. Many preachers (me included) have experienced similar incidents related to our "crummy" sermons and how God often chooses to act through them. Ken in WV
Date: 05 Jul 2000
Time: 16:48:36
Dear "PK in Ohio":
(In response to your request for examples)
While doing my Masters degree in theology, I was working on the weekends as a residence houseparent at a school for physically-challenged children. My finishing time on Sundays was at 9 p.m., but between 6-9 p.m. on Sundays was one of my busiest periods. After a full weekend caring for 8 children (some of them in wheelchairs), I had to prepare for and welcome back other residence children who went home on the weekends. I had to unfold and line up all the wheelchairs near the door in time for the arrival of the various buses. One blustery winter Sunday evening, all the buses seemed to arrive within minutes of each other. Placing kids into wheelchairs, pushing them up the ramp into the residence, going back to retrieve suitcases, schoolbags, etc., helping to take off winter clothes, helping those who needed help to go to the bathroom... WHEW! I'm getting exhausted just remembering it! By the time I was finished most of this demanding physical work, I was starting to get irritable.
One of those who returned that hectic Sunday evening was a 16-year-old boy who lived with the disease of Duschene's Muscular Dystrophy. Many kids with that form of MD ratherly survive past the age of 17 or 18. He was very heavy due to an inability to do much physical activity; his body was so weak that he had difficulty even raising his fingers to scratch an itchy nose; he was totally dependent on csregivers for just about every one of his physical needs.
Once things settled down at around 8:45 p.m., I retreated to my room to fill out my weekend report for my supervisor. I was so tired I could hardly concentrate on writing (let alone thinking in a coherent manner!).
I heard a whir sound of an electric wheelchair approaching my room from down the hall. Soon this boy stopped outside my door and said: "How are you doing?"
I answered: "I'm wiped, Danny."
He said: "You finish at 9, right?"
"Yes."
With a grin, he then said: "It's okay, you can go. I'll cover for you."
I started to laugh, and his grin grew even wider.He got the desired result of picking up my spirit. I went over to him, gave hoim a hug, and said: "Thanks, Danny, I really needed that!"
God's grace, poured out over me in my weakness that evening, came to me via this physically helpless young man. The gift of humour God has given him (and which drove me nuts sometimes) was just the strength I needed to perk up.
My friends, God's grace is sufficient to meet and cover and override our weakness. That grace is all around us. We just need to be open to perceiving it. And, it often comes from directions where we least expect it.
Danny died about 3 years later. I was blessed to be able to travel to the hospital near hishome town a few days before he left us. He was too weak to talk, but I was blessed with an opportunity to hug him, to kiss his forehead, and to tell him that I loved him. And then I reminded him of that precious Sunday evening a few years earlier, and told him how much his words of humour were a gift to me. And then, as he struggled to breathe, I said to him: "It's okay to let go, Danny. I'll cover."
Peace & Blessings
RevIan in Québec
As left his hospital room,
Date: 05 Jul 2000
Time: 19:03:44
I wonder if Paul is referring to the Damascus Road experience when he is talking about this "thing" that happened to him? One of the most beautiful passages in Scripture: "My grace is sufficient." Pretty amazing for those of us "perfectionists" who have been trying to earn our way for most of our lives. I heard the thorn in his side was referring to his being married - ha,ha!! Rev. Jennifer in Mississippi
Date: 06 Jul 2000
Time: 04:37:35
Someone asked for an example of "being made perfect in weakness". THis came to mind. I was pastoring in a small Anglican parish. I made a hospital visit to the big city and discovered, quite by accident, that the man in the next bed was from the same town, had a long time Anglican connection but never went to church. I visited, we prayed, and he began attending church. He was without much social grace, a recovering alcoholic (among other things), but he also began to take an interest in the church building. He saw the run down place as a place of beauty and a place of God and began planting flowers. This spurred the congregation to express more love of their place of meeting with God. Just came to mind...Rev. Sarah
Date: 06 Jul 2000
Time: 09:46:51
What contrasts- seeing things unseen by earthly humans limited to this body.How we need such vision at times as we get so earthly minded that we are not of any Heavenly use because we don't see the wood for the trees.But the experience may cement the reality of heaven in our being forever,but is only the source of temporary power. The power comes in the contrast -- our thorns in the flesh. These are the things which wear down our physical and emotional resources, such as an ongoing problem one of our children may be having.ALL solutions which may have come to mind fail and affect ministry on Sunday. How do I preach in this weaknes? The 'thorn'drives me to be totally dependant on God because I am weaker than I have ever been.Perhaps now I am in a position for God's power to work perfectly. Even for this I need Grace!
Chris. U.K.
Date: 06 Jul 2000
Time: 13:46:56
"Third heven" probably comes from Jewish mysticism which was just getting organized in Paul's day. Over the next 1000 years Jewish mystical speculation postulated as many as 12 heavens corressponding to the 12 attributes of God. In any event, the point of the passage is the contrast bwetween Paul's gospel and those of his opponents. Paul advocated self-disinterest and service, whereas his opponents advocated more "earthly" or self-interest motivations for being Christian. hence they valued looks, success, private revelation, self-help\self advantage, strength and so on, the opposite of Paul's teachings which were Christ-centered and devalued personal advantage or benefit. Cross-centered rather than self-centered in other owrds....hence he mentioned his mystical experience only to say that it meant nothing to his gospel/teachings. Such experiences only built him up (which his opponents would have liked) rather than builcing Christ up to the devaluation of one's own benefit. JAK, Il
Date: 06 Jul 2000
Time: 22:34:26
I'm approaching this lection not from the mystical 3rd heaven part, but from the concept of, "What do you do if you do all the right things, and it still doesn't get better?" We have an active prayer ministry in my church. Several folks have had requests on that list for up to a year--maybe a terminally ill parent or friend, a family rift, personal employment or relationship problems. I plan to use a video clip from from "Hanging Up" with Meg Ryan & Walter Matthau. In one scene Eve (Ryan), who is carrying the weight of the whole family on her co-dependent shoulders, complains/cries bitterly to an older woman. The older woman talks on a cellphone, finishes her call & then says, "Sometimes you have to disconnect." The tie-in would be that sometimes we have to let it go; we have to trust God to be God. I would love to have some positive illustrations to continue in that direction. Any thoughts out there? Rev Rich in Bama
Date: 06 Jul 2000
Time: 22:35:11
I'm approaching this lection not from the mystical 3rd heaven part, but from the concept of, "What do you do if you do all the right things, and it still doesn't get better?" We have an active prayer ministry in my church. Several folks have had requests on that list for up to a year--maybe a terminally ill parent or friend, a family rift, personal employment or relationship problems. I plan to use a video clip from from "Hanging Up" with Meg Ryan & Walter Matthau. In one scene Eve (Ryan), who is carrying the weight of the whole family on her co-dependent shoulders, complains/cries bitterly to an older woman. The older woman talks on a cellphone, finishes her call & then says, "Sometimes you have to disconnect." The tie-in would be that sometimes we have to let it go; we have to trust God to be God. I would love to have some positive illustrations to continue in that direction. Any thoughts out there? Rev Rich in Bama
Date: 07 Jul 2000
Time: 15:26:36
I'm approaching this text from Paul's persepctive that he can't/shouldn't boast, but because of all the troubles in Corinth with other apostles, goes on anyway to describe his personal experience in the third heaven. I'm reminded of something Dr. Fred Craddock said in a sermon recently when he said, "For years Christians have said, 'It's not enough to talk the talk, you've got to walk the walk.'" He then looked at the congregation and said, "Now it's time for Christians to say: 'It's not enough to walk the walk, we've got to talk the talk.'"
I'm going to talk about how important it is for Christians to talk about how their faith has impacted their lives. It's okay to share with others the impact that a deeper spiritual walk has on one's life.
REminds me of one of the verses in "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" that goes like this: Forbid it Lord that I should boast...
Blessings to you all.
Rev LHS
Date: 07 Jul 2000
Time: 15:27:53
For those of you who asked about strength in weakness: look for the anonymous prayer of a Confederate Soldier which goes like this: I asked for wealth... but was given poverty so that .....
A copy is found in Max Cleland's book "Strong at the Broken Places".
Rev. LHS
Date: 08 Jul 2000
Time: 07:37:27
Hello all! I need some assistance. I'm looking for a sermon illustration(s)in which God answers a prayer by saying "no" to our personal request, but at the same time saying "yes" to something else that is more conducive to God's will and plan for our lives. Any suggestions? In my sermon, I plan on focusing on God's refusal to answer Paul's prayer of deliverance from his thorn in the flesh, but at the same time, answering Paul's prayer with the continued offer of His sufficient grace. By the way, I plan on naming my sermon "When God's Answer is 'No'...". Thanks for any help you can offer.
--Pastor Steve
Date: 08 Jul 2000
Time: 08:52:35
To PK in Ohio and DaveK in Ohio Have been blessed by the question and answer 1987 the Lord said 'trust me' having been to AA I just didn't know if I could receive the chalice as that caused a bad day for some on Monday. His voice was loud and clear. Itwas quieter when he said tell people! 13 years later was licensed as a 'lay person' and oh boy the joy. My cry for help, heard and answered, not as I thought at all as I every day since 1987 I have been weak and by the Lord's grace am made strong. I could not stand and read a lesson let along preach the Word! I give thanks with a grateful heart. SJ in ND
Date: 08 Jul 2000
Time: 17:17:14
Pastor Steve, Hope this illustration is useful to you. I found it on the Text Week site and am going to use it in my sermon this week.
To graphically illustrate the point that we must leave in God's hands both the good and the bad, Anthony de Mello tells this ancient Chinese story of an old farmer who had an old horse for tilling his fields.
One day the horse escaped into the hills and when all the farmer's neighbors sympathized with the old man over his bad luck, the farmer replied, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?" A week later the horse returned with a herd of wild horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck. His reply was, "Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?" Then, when the farmer's son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this very bad luck. Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?" Some weeks later the army marched into the village and conscripted every able-bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer's son with his broken leg they let him off. Now was that good luck? Bad luck? Who knows? --de Mello, Sadhana: A Way to God: Christian Exercises in Eastern Form (St. Louis: Institute of Jesuit Sources, 1979
Perhaps the answer to the question, "Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?" is God knows and in every circumstance of life God works for life, healing and reconciliation in our lives. Peace! Rev. Diana at the dam
Date: 08 Jul 2000
Time: 17:28:05
To Pastor Steve, I have lived with a "no" answer (truly the "no" answer was for my husband who died of cancer), and my job was to live in the face of this "no" answer, to find life again, to raise our daughter, to continue saying "yes" to life in the face of the most deep difficulties. This was the way my husband lived until he died, and will remain a model for me on that. The "yes" after the "no" came with a new love and a new marriage...a new life. Sarah
Date: 08 Jul 2000
Time: 19:06:30
A special "thank you" to Rev. Diana and Sarah! I certainly appreciate your help. Rev. Diana, your illustration is very appropriate and insightful, and Sarah, your story is very moving and inspirational. May God's rich blessings be with you both!
Pastor Steve
Date: 08 Jul 2000
Time: 19:45:25
I am new to this DP department, so please bear with me. I was moved by the comment of Jim Dennis in Bamberg ........... so here is my comment:
I read somewhere recently about "Thorn Theology" for a good sermon topic. God can find strength through our weaknesses. This is a great foundation for a sermon of the Grace of God. The cross of Christ is the prime example of offering to God our thorn (imperfections)for redemptive purposes. What we may call thorns, God reffers to as opportunities to connect. I ran from God's call to ministry for many years. When I finally stopped and listened, I asked, why did you let me experience all this stuff, and not just get me into ministry right off, God? The revelation was that until you have expereienced the thorns of life, you can't help others overcome their thorns. Tell me that won't preach!
It is easy to offer God what he has already given us, but what about what he has not given us? The things we must endure, just because we still are sinful by nature? God can make a turn around in even clergy, and laity. That is Grace redemption. Not because we merit or earn it, but just because of God's love for his creation, humankind. At least that is my Methodist understanding of Thorn Theology! Hope this helps those who are searching............. Dave in Louisiana!
Date: 08 Jul 2000
Time: 20:56:05
For those looking for an example of God answering prayer in a different way than expected: go directly to the nearest music store and purchase a copy of Garth Brooks' CD containing the song "Unanswered Prayer". It's a keeper and well worth playing during the sermon for the entire congregation to hear. In this song, Garth runs into his old girlfriend at a high school football game and remembers praying that they would be together forever. Then he turns and looks at his wife and goes into the chorus... "Some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayer...just because he doesn't answer doesn't mean he don't care...some of God's greatest gifts are all too often unanswered prayers.
Blessings, Rev. LHS