Date: 19 Nov 2000
Time: 20:58:04
We are facing a federal election in Canada the day after this text would be read, and of course the future leadership in the U.S. seems far from certain at this point.
What a challegne for those would be leaders, of nations or of churches, this reading poses. And yet it comes from one who certainly had his weaknesses in terms of leadership.
To me, this speaks of the possiblity for striving for what we know is an unreachable ideal. When we do so, we risk being labelled hypocrites for not living up to what we believe, but for even tryng we hear that David is exalted by God.
Date: 20 Nov 2000
Time: 14:41:31
I think the poor moral leadership (Clinton, as well as many other national leaders), the recent election chaos and uncertainty in the US (and elsewhere), lends itself perfectly to point out to the poeple of God that we should once again set our sight on God and on Christ's reign. Of course, we expect Christ's reign to kick fully in place at the end of times, but we certainly also believe that Christ is ultimately in charge already...Chuck
Date: 25 Nov 2000
Time: 17:16:41
Since this is the celebration of Christ the King Sunday, it is an opportunity to tie this text to the New Testament readings. Christ is the King who will "...rule with justice over us and ... bring dawn upon us like the morning light, like the sun shining forth on a cloudless morning, like rain that makes grass to sprout from the earth." The mixed metaphor - sun shining, rain falling - may provide a rich foundation for exploring the nature of the rule of Christ. -Philly Phool
Date: 25 Nov 2000
Time: 22:42:17
Philly Phool,
This sugestion may be arriving too late for your use. But, I too have been considering combining this with Revelation and John's Gospel. An idea might be to also elude to Rev. 2:28 & 22:16. Both these verses acknowledge that Christ could be the morning light as suggested by this passage; but these two Revelation pericopes announce that he is the Bright Morning Star given to all of us!
Blessings on you all, Pastor Dave in BC Canada
Date: 11/16/2003
Time: 9:36:34 PM
Chuck brought this up, moral character of Politicians. George W. Bush and Hilliary Clinton are both UMC memebers.... Quite a contast of morals and polity there. Ask this question this week if you preach on this passage. It you the President's Pastor and he was there sunday in worship how would you preach this to him? TO Hilliary and Bill at her Church? Clerically Blonde in west Ohio
Date: 11/17/2003
Time: 10:38:44 AM
This passage is a song that aims to give theological and moral legitimacy to the ongoing dynasty of David that endured over four hundred years until the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 B.C.
This second book of samuel draws to a close with a song of praise attributed to David. Hannah's song, which we encountered in 1 Samuel, celebrated God's faithfulness at a time of birth. David's words reflect on God's faithfulness near the time of death. David, like Hannah, grounds his hope in God's faithfulness. David's hope rests in the timeless covenant that God keeps, not in any temporal authority, including his own.
Date: 11/17/2003
Time: 10:53:01 AM
Please preachers if you decide to be political remember that there are people in the congregation who believe the politics of Bill and Hillary are more moral than George W, and H Bush. It is unfair to assume that all people agree with a political position. Lying about an affair seems to pale next to initiating a war with incomplete or unknown reasons. Gen
Date: 11/17/2003
Time: 12:43:29 PM
AMEN ... and thanks for your post Gen revinsac
Date: 11/17/2003
Time: 12:47:16 PM
Gen, yes agreed with your statement. That's why I posted to Chuck. Both leaders in UMC denomination. We have peopl in our congregation who are pro Bush and pro war in Iraq and Against. Yes, to follow Wesleylan heritage and preach social issues follows our tradition. But, I am not sure preaching for or against war in pulpit would even acconplish anything! My Job is to bring hope and comfort.
Just a meandering in my mind about Being Hilliary's or George W.'s pastor. How would you preach this to each? Just allow Holy Spirit to lead you. Wonder How John Wesley would preach it?
I will say this, I was listening to History Channel today, showing Hitler stuff, a statement which stood out to me, actually woke me up from napping. " Do you initiate a war just to show your superiority? What does it make that leader look like?" Food for thought there, GEN, eh?
Now I AM NOT saying or comparing George W. to Hitler. just a statement that popped out during that show. Dangerous postition to take. IS George W. trying to really prove what mid eastern muslim nations think of us, that we are a great satan? We think we are superior and only our way is right? Clerically Blonde on West Ohio
Date: 11/17/2003
Time: 9:39:42 PM
Gen, I will not be back to this discussion, but just so you know there are those who believe that adultery is still an abomination to God as is bearing false witness against a neighbor and murder. The attack on the “chemical warfare plant” in Khartoum turned out to be an aspirin factory, in which 20 or 30 innocent Sudanese workers were killed.
When members of this list choose to post pious political platitudes it does nothing to build a community of hopeful homeliticians.
Sign me, A Preacher Sick of Clinton Apologists
Date: 11/18/2003
Time: 6:32:59 AM
My job is not to "bring hope and comfort," but to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace who calls us to be peacemakers. I will not be ashamed of nor quiet about my absolute affirmation that war is not of God's kingdom. I beleive the gospel does bring hope, but not at the expense of the truth of God's word and God's ways. Hence, the celebration of Christ's ultimate rule as king instead of eternal rule by flawed humans.
Date: 11/18/2003
Time: 6:33:46 AM
oops. forgot to sign my gospel-preaching declaration.
RevCes
Date: 11/18/2003
Time: 12:49:46 PM
You may want to note that the first postings here are evidently old ones from the last 3-year cycle. Maybe a way to make our congregations think seriously about the implications for this text today would be to paint a picture of the Reign of Christ, using David's words as a jumping-off point, then reminding our listeners that we are called by God's word to work for a just world NOW. What would a righteous government look and act like? What can we do as citizens to help bring this type of government closer to reality? I think that if we were to answer these questions honestly, in light of the gospel and what we are told the righteous kingdom of God will be like, proponents of every point on the political spectrum would be in for a surprise! We ALL fall short. Ken in WV.
Date: 11/19/2003
Time: 9:44:08 AM
AMEN KEN IN WV Clerically Blonde on West Ohio
Date: 11/19/2003
Time: 9:48:35 AM
Someone ihas got bee in his/her bonnet over Slick Willie. Actually, it's ironic that this passage is about David. This poster better just think about David. David was a man after God's own heart. Loved God fully. But he was imperfect, David was an adulterer and a morderer. Bathsheba he raped. Uriah her husband he basically murdered by sending him whehre he knew he'd be killed) hmmm Sounds like the Clintons huh? If Bill really repents like David BILL Clinton could be a man after God's own heart TOO! ANd Hilliary too.
Gen, you think that he'll 'get it'. CB in West Ohio
Date: 11/19/2003
Time: 9:54:16 AM
Revces, THe comment i made about bringing hope and comfort was directed at specifically war in IRAQ. NOT JOB OF PREACHER! I simply think to take sides wouldnt be good, we have people on both sides in our congregations, we all have friends and family we know in Iraq now. it's more dangerous now since it's not a war than before. CB in West OHio
Date: 11/19/2003
Time: 2:06:17 PM
OK, OK. Everyone to neutral corners. Let's remember why we are here.
Date: 11/19/2003
Time: 6:38:01 PM
For those who see this in November of 2003, Ravi Zacharias has been preaching on the subject of moral leadership in his radio messages which are available online.
http://resources.christianity.com/ministries/rzim/main/searchItems.jhtml
At this site, click on the last two messages dated 11/2 and 11/9 - "Character Counts"
Looking for my classic three points, I don't think I quite have them yet, but I do see these three things.
1) Moral leadership begins with a recognition that God is ruler over all and that a leader is merely a "lower level" leader. Earthly leaders are all subject and accountable to God. (v. 3)
2) Moral leadership is preferable and is to be prefered above any other consideration. Often our concerns have to do with the economy, or environment, or whatever our current "hot button" is at the time. Moral leadership, which is under God, will deal with all these things properly. God does know what He's about. (vv. 4-5)
3) Moral leadership realizes that immoral influences are every at the door and cannot simply be ignored. They must be removed - kept at a distance and eliminated. (vv. 6-7)
My early thoughts ("early" for me is Wednesday)
JG in WI
Date: 11/21/2003
Time: 1:35:00 PM
Let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother/sister's eye, but do not see the log that is in your own eye?
We are not promoting the Kingdom of God when we pick at the moral failings of others. Pray for those who need prayer. Ask God to work in them, according to God's own will. And most of all, ask God to keep you from your own moral failings.
If you are on your knees praying for God's guidance, the first thing God will likely show you is that you are not anyone's moral judge. Keep your own path straight and God will deal with the rest.
Both Bushes and both Clintons would need to hear the same message. We have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God, and Jesus Christ has offered redemption of our souls. You could also preach that same sermon to Mother Teresa and John Hinckley, St. Peter and Judas, all in the same Sunday sermon.