Date: 5/25/2003
Time: 3:49:43 PM
And what do we do with the disciples holding, YES! a lottery? PH in OH
Date: 5/26/2003
Time: 7:31:14 AM
mmmm as a UMC this is a bit on the difficult side, however it was not for personal gain and they prayed first... Doesn't that make it OK? :-) (LOL)
You kind of wonder what did the unchosen one think or what did the chosen think. Nancy-Wi
Date: 5/26/2003
Time: 1:07:16 PM
Mennonite preachers are chosen this way. Anybody know any others?
Sally
Date: 5/26/2003
Time: 3:57:56 PM
In our congregation (Episcopal) at the annual meeting those nominated for the Vestry (governing board) all hear the responsibilities explained, they agree to accept them if selected, names are put in the offering plate, we pray, names are drawn for the vacancies on the Vestry, and then for replacements in case of resignations during the year. THEN, to fulfill the canons, those selected are elected by unanimous vote. We have been doing this for over fifteen years, and find that more people than before are willing to serve, because they will not have to face the possible rejection of NOT being elected. Not a popularity contest.
The decision to go to this form of "election" was based on this lesson from Acts.
Sara in GR,MI
Date: 5/26/2003
Time: 5:45:27 PM
What strikes me about this text is that in the context of new things happening as the disciples and the 120 await the promised Spirit, that they are also concerned about the tradition of Israel, and the 12 tribes. They apparently felt it expedient to honor that tradition by filling the vacancy, so that there would once again be 12 Apostles, to correspond to the 12 tribes. Perhaps it was also honoring how Jesus had originally set up his disciples.
I remember hearing a talk by Father Edward O'Conner from Notre Dame University in an address to a bunch of Lutherans involved in the charismatic movement. He talked about Ezekiel and the dry bones(Ezekiel 37). All the bones were put together, but they needed the life (the breath) of God to be breathed into them. The Spirit also needed the bodies, the bones, for there to be life. O'Conner related this to the church, which needs both Spirit and structure.
I wonder if the Disciples filling the vacancy left by Judas showed a concern for structure and tradition. The very next verses are about the Spirit being given, breathed into and upon their fearful, dry bones, giving them life, courage, and power to witness.
--MattMN
Date: 5/27/2003
Time: 4:16:33 AM
Nancy, so if I buy a lottery ticket, pray and give my winnings to the church, that is okay? PH in OH
Date: 5/27/2003
Time: 7:59:35 AM
Casting lots. I recall there was a spiritual side to it, almost like praying before the purchae of a lottery ticket? But then, they acted on the will of God, and that is what is realy important. They were willing to accept the leading from God. How do we react when God tells us, go, you are the one, ministry should be like this, or any others vahllenge from God.
Phil from KS
Date: 5/27/2003
Time: 9:43:43 AM
This has nothing to do with current lections, but I'm wondering if anyone out there has ever preached a sermon related to the movie, "The Matrix," and if so, what scripture(s) were used as the connection point and basis for the message? I have not seen the movie yet, but have read so much about it that I feel like I have! I may rent the video in the very near future, with an eye toward a future sermon. Please don't tie up this board with replies, but feel free to e-mail me at JadeKepple@cinci.rr.com .... Thanks.
Dave K. in Ohio <><
Date: 5/27/2003
Time: 1:27:31 PM
So little is known about Matthias, yet I have chosen him as the model for my sermon this week, part of a series on "the life-changing power of the resurrection" as it follows several of Jesus' disciples. I've got conflicting data on where he went, a bit about a Gospel of Matthias, and even conflicting stories about how he died. Anyone able to offer any assistance?
UMPREACH
Date: 5/27/2003
Time: 7:58:56 PM
To Dave K. in Ohio.
For some outstanding movie discussion guides go to the E.L.C.A. Website for discussion guides and Bibilical references for The Matrix and many other movies. Do this to get there:
Go to www.elca.org Click on "Youth" Click on "Resources" Scroll down and click on "Reel World" Scroll down and click on "The Matrix"
That should get you there.
--MattMN
Date: 5/28/2003
Time: 1:47:49 PM
To UMPREACH,
I have a book The Search for the Twelve Disciples by William Steuart McBirnie, Ph.D., in which he talks about Matthias. Clement of Alexandria identifies Matthias with Zaccheus, but that does not fit the text, because Zaccheus was not there from the beginning. Eusebius suggests that Matthias was one of the 70 sent out by Jesus, which would have enabled him to demonstrate some leadership which impressed the eleven Disciples. Matthias is one of five Apostles credited with the evangelization of Armenia, the other four being Thaddaeus, Bartholomew, Simon the Cananaean, and Andrew. There is disagreement on where he died. Some sources mention Jerusalem as the place of his death and burial. That tradition is that he was stoned to death there by the Jews (Encyclopaedia Brittnnica). McBirnie concludes his discussion with a short biography from the best of the traditions. He concludes that Matthias was probably involved in bringing the Gospel to Armenia, and having been somewhat battered there, he returned to Jerusalem. The climate in Jerusalem had changed to one of much greater hostility in his absence, and he ended up dying there. Part of the evidence to support this is from St. Helena who collected relics (Body pieces?). As a result of her efforts, the remains of Matthias reportedly ended up in Rome and Trier. A point is also made that the casting of lots to choose a successor was probably “half baked” (to use my words). That is because nothing more of significance is mentioned of Matthias in the Scriptures, and other people are mentioned as successors of Judas, like Paul, and Apostle untimely chosen, or James.
--MattMN
Date: 5/28/2003
Time: 2:52:49 PM
This is almost the same way my DS selected me as a Local Pastor. Except the previous two pastors were shot down by the congregation and then the conference for “problems”, respectively. Then God helped/led the DS pull my name out of the hat. Were there better choices? Did Peter push to get a full team? Does God work through the Lottery system? Did the disciples control the outcome by only having two names?
tbowen in GA
Date: 5/28/2003
Time: 3:06:32 PM
Seems to me that this text is about how not to do it since Matthias is never mentioned again in the scriptures after this.
Creature Wayne
Date: 5/28/2003
Time: 3:19:08 PM
So, if I understand Creature Wayne, if no one has heard of a certain servant of God, if one labors unnamed and unknown, (s)he doesn't count? Isn't it magnificent in itself to be aligned with the cause of Christ? lkinhc
Date: 5/29/2003
Time: 6:49:55 AM
Good point, lkinhc. Not many people have ever heard of Creature Wayne and I certainly don't get mentioned in print anywhere. But, how do we preach this stuff. I can't figure out why this text is even in the lectionary. I'm not getting anywhere with the gospel text this week either. But, the week ain't over yet.
Creature Wayne
Date: 5/29/2003
Time: 7:30:28 AM
Good point, lkinhc. Not many people have ever heard of Creature Wayne and I rarely, if ever, get mentioned in print. But, I'm struggling with this text. Why is it even included in the lectionary. I'm also struggling with the other texts this week. But, the week ain't over yet.
Creature Wayne
Date: 5/29/2003
Time: 8:42:30 AM
David K. It was pointed out to me in an Asian theology class that in matrix, Buddism is also very present. Very interesting blending. Nancy-Wi
Date: 5/29/2003
Time: 8:48:28 AM
Creature Wayne, well once in a while if I quote you I do give you credit, but I do call you Pastor Wayne then, maybe you would prefer the other. Ph-Ohio, only if you are in my parish and win the lottery! Actually a woman did this in an unnamed church,but she never said, where the money came from, she just put it in the plate. So I suppose that she gave of her own previous income and lived on the lottery money! LOL Nancy-Wi
Date: 5/29/2003
Time: 9:12:59 AM
Creature Wayne,
I heard an interesting reflection on Matthias as the patron saint of those Christians who are the faithful, unsung heroes without whom none of our churches could exist (and to whom most of us preach every week...). I'm thinking of using this as a starting point.
Heather
Date: 5/29/2003
Time: 9:35:22 PM
Well, YEs West Ohio Lottery big issue...I am a loaner SLP, in relationship in WV Conference...Serving in West Ohio and attending Seminary... You keep mentioning the matrix, well that;s not my style of movie...But Anyone seen Bruce Almighy? now that's good... and anyone got any God Calls 773 number...
Last Week I asked for prayer concerning something that UMC Conference does this time of year...I cant really say anything yet(UMC, know what and why, the rules) but thanks for your prayers and please continue...
And DPSER's that are in West Ohio Conference June 8-12 ---wanna have a DPS'er reunion at conference we can put nicknames with faces!!! Eric in OHIO and PH in OHIO and Methsco fan...etc...thnik about it Pastor Mary in OHIO
Date: 5/30/2003
Time: 5:32:47 AM
Sally,
Only a handful of Mennonites use the lot. Some very conservative churches may do so but Mennonites in general go through a process similar to our brothers and sisters by names such as Baptist, methodist or Presbyterian to choose ministers.
Has it occurred to anyone that the great American pastime, football, begins with a coin toss. This ceremony which is almost as important as the game itself is anticipated and pontificated about to great lengths.
I find it interesting that when one , Judas, turned aside to go to his own place, there were two ready to take his place.
Louisiana Bob
Date: 5/30/2003
Time: 6:36:56 AM
Interesting input this week. I suspected there would be less on this subject, but glad to see it. I’m preaching a title of ‘torch song’ & where I’m going is how do we mentor & disciple younger(?) folks so that they will be prepared to take over leadership in our congregations. We have a number of teens to young adults who are almost illiterate, Scripturally. Trying to get interest in establishing a serious Bible study like Disciple or Christian Believer. Rich in Bama
Date: 5/30/2003
Time: 6:53:17 AM
Hi Friends:
I'm working with the sermon title, "Chosen", but I'm not sure where I'm going with this. The two whose names were put into the lottery were already proven leaders. They met all the criteria. They must have been willing to serve.
None of us today meet the criteria used then. Our newest members can't relate to having been there from the beginning, but then neither can those of use who've been around longer. I think I want to look carefully at the criteria we use to choose our leaders--warm bodies, willing to serve--but what about specific gifts for leadership?
And then how willing are we to give ourselves to the tasks for which we are chosen? Sometimes it feels like we work with the bottom of the bucket rather than the cream because of a difference in willingness to serve. But isn't it amazing what can be done by those less qualified when they have willing hearts and follow God's call!
Well, these are early thoughts on Friday morning. We'll see where we go from here.
Pam in San Bernardino
Date: 5/30/2003
Time: 9:43:56 AM
To Sally, et.al.: Notice an earlier contribution stating that only a handful of Mennonite preachers are chosen by use of "the lot" anymore. You will find this practice still in use among the more conversative old order Mennonite and Amish groups. A very high percentage of present day Mennonite Church USA pastors go the route of seminary, Bible college or other graduate level education prior to serving as pastors.
My ministry had beginning by use of the lot in a more traditional Mennonite congregation. I pursued seminary education after that beginning. Of the other five men that shared in the service of "lot", four of those persons have had or are in active pastoral ministry assignments today. Going through the service was viewed as affirming to the gifts they each had. Some chose to pursue pastoral tracts of study and preparation as result of the experience.
As a Mennonite Church USA conference minister today, I have never administrated a service of selecting a new minister by use of the "lot." It is not embraced today as acceptable practice of discernment for choosing ministers. However, there continues to be strong affirmation of "shoulder-tapping" and developing a "culture of call" for young persons to consider ministry vocation as a viable option to pursue.
WLT in PA
Date: 5/31/2003
Time: 7:28:18 AM
Lottery vs. casting of lots: Often we interpret "casting of lots" the same as lottery, but in most aspects it is not. Some bibles translate this phrase as "rolling dice" or "lottery" or "gambled" but those interpretations would not be accurate.
The casting of lots was an ancient practice in this world - originating in more 'pagan' like rituals, but obviously, still part of the culture of the Jewish faith. The belief was that God was in charge of all things, that there is no "luck" or "fate". When people had problems deciding they would leave decisions up to God. They believed that God worked through the "casting of lots." Hence also the reason why they prayed before the selection, in the hope that the chosen one would be 'of God.' Remember also the casting of lots to find out who caused the storm in the story of Jonah.
A lottery, in definition, requires one placing funds or valuables up for risk, with the hope/ expectation of rewards. The risking of money, for the possible gain is the basis of lottery and the placing of false hope in the person who places their hope, not in God, but in luck.
In this case, the disciples were not risking anything and were not in a position to lost any valuables - so it is quite different than a lottery. Hence why lotteries are banned in our Anglican Church for fund raising - they place hope not in God or in Christ.
Other such things like, silent auctions, or door prize draws etc.. do not count as "lottery" because there is no aspect of risk or false hope in winning.
Hope this all helps!
Rev Dwayne in Ontario, Canada
Date: 5/31/2003
Time: 7:51:24 AM
At a time when my church is about to interview for a successor to the Director of Music, and to advertise for a new post as manager of a recently-opened community centre, I'm thinking of reflecting on structures within the local church and comparing them with the early chapters of Acts.
Peter was convinced that Judas' death left a vacancy to be filled.
He presented a clear job description, but one that would apply to any member of the team.
He made no attempt to look for someone with Judas' talent for money-management - and this freed the young church to develop a new model based on giving and sharing. This model itself brought in at least one new Christian who became a leading evangelist (Barnabas).
When the new model ran into difficulties, the apostles "contracted out" the sharing of resources to a newly-created order of deacons - and guess what! they also included the prophetic evangelists Stephen and Philip.
Man proposes, God disposes!
But as far as Acts 1 is concerned, the most important charateristics of the embryonic church were prayer, community-building, and openness to the working of the Holy Spirit, as they awaited Pentecost.
Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your people and kindle in us the fire of your love. Amen.
Barbara, Cambridge