Date: 20 May 2004
Time: 04:14:13
This is something you may never see again, me posting the first contribution. Pentecost is my very favorite Sunday/sermon to preach. God/Holy Spirit fills me anew every year with a sermon. I want to share with you what I have so far this year.
People/congregations know about God and they know about Jesus (no, I am not going to debate this :-D), but what do they know about the Holy Spirit. We have been taught to have a relationship with God the Creator, Jesus the Savior, but what about relationship with the Holy Spirit? Don't our people sort of think of the Holy Spirit as "popping up" and doing things? Things like giving us visions, setting bushes on fire, speaking in tongues, giving us "glory bumps" when we feel the presence at very intense spiritual moments?
I preached Sunday, and this is what started all this, "We don't have any qualms talking about God and Jesus, but let's not discuss or call on the Holy Spirit--that is--well, that is--too pentecostal! Well, my friends if that is too pentecostal, then we had better become more pentecostal, isn't that what happened AT Pentecost?" Maybe that is what is happening in our churches! We claim God and have a relationship, we claim Jesus and have a relationship, but what about the Holy Spirit? All we expect there are "feelings". We need to be IN RELATIONSHIP with the Holy Spirit! I wrote in here a couple of years ago, "All word and you dry up, all spirit and you blow up, equal parts of word and spirit and you grow up." I can tell you that I do not see much spirit in the mainline churches today. I have served 13 churches (charge ministry) and only two of those churches have been "spiritual". It is from one of those precious churches that I learned about and received my spirituality. I have always been churched, Baptist, then Christian and now UM. I did not receive any teaching on the Holy Spirit, I just vaguely knew "about" the Holy Spirit as part of the Trinity.
Isn't Pentecost the greatest day for teaching about and starting/renewing relationship with the Holy Spirit, not only as individuals, but as churches? I hope that many of you will help me as I work with this line of thought. As I am blessed, I will continue to add to the contributions. Right now I am thinking of titling my sermon, "Father, Son and WHO?"
Blessings! Toni
Date: 20 May 2004
Time: 13:30:23
This is a good day to preach about the Holy Spirit and maybe an even better day to preach about what the Holy Spirit does, and what the Holy Spirit does on this day of Pentecost. I'm not convinced that being spiritual is always related to the Holy Spirit, nor separate a relationship with the Holy Spirit from the other parts of the Trinity. I've thought that the Holy Spirit is what makes the relationship possible. In the gospel of John a few weeks ago, Jesus calls the Holy Spirit, the Advocate (the Helper)who will remind and teach us of all that Jesus taught. Maybe that is what the Spirit is doing here on Pentecost...reminding and teaching others in all the languages of the world what Jesus has said and done.
Continuing the conversation,
RB in CA
Date: 20 May 2004
Time: 18:42:08
RB, I agree with you COMPLETELY! That is the point, there is more to the Holy Spirit than just "feelings". People consider relationship with the Holy Spirit as emotional, you are right without the Holy Spirit the relationship is incomplete. That is what I want to get across when I preach this.
Thank-you, Toni
Date: 22 May 2004
Time: 05:57:09
Just thinking ... and nothing but thinking. Not preaching yet ... just playing with the text.
sometimes its best to hear to gospel in your own language. Other languages are too painfully steeped in a history of stereotyping and empire building. Take for instance some of the folks in Jerusalem that first Pentecost: Elamites? Refugees. Medes? Barbarians. Cretans: Liars.
They had to hear the good news in a language that would not snipe at them with insults.
See: Jer 49:36 - Then I'll let four winds loose on Elam, winds from the four corners of earth. I'll blow them away in all directions, landing homeless Elamites in every country on earth.
Isa 13:17 "And now watch this: Against Babylon, I'm inciting the Medes, A ruthless bunch indifferent to bribes, the kind of brutality that no one can blunt.
Tit 1:12 "One of their own prophets said it best: The Cretans are liars from the womb, barking dogs, lazy bellies."
Story teller
Date: 22 May 2004
Time: 05:58:48
Just thinking ... and nothing but thinking. Not preaching yet ... just playing with the text.
Just thinking sometimes its best to hear the gospel in your own language. Other languages can be too painfully steeped in a history of stereotyping and empire building to speak past insultings and deliver the good news.
Take for instance some of the folks in Jerusalem who were hearing the good news that first Pentecost: Elamites? Refugees. Medes? Barbarians. Cretans: Liars.
They had to hear the good news in a language that would not snipe at them with insults.
See: Jer 49:36 - Then I'll let four winds loose on Elam, winds from the four corners of earth. I'll blow them away in all directions, landing homeless Elamites in every country on earth.
Isa 13:17 "And now watch this: Against Babylon, I'm inciting the Medes, A ruthless bunch indifferent to bribes, the kind of brutality that no one can blunt.
Tit 1:12 "One of their own prophets said it best: The Cretans are liars from the womb, barking dogs, lazy bellies."
Story teller
Date: 22 May 2004
Time: 06:01:07
Just thinking ... and nothing but thinking. Not preaching yet ... just playing with the text.
Just thinking sometimes its best to hear the gospel in your own language. Other languages can be too painfully steeped in a history of stereotyping and empire building to speak past insultings and deliver the good news.
Take for instance some of the folks in Jerusalem who were hearing the good news that first Pentecost: Elamites? Refugees. Medes? Barbarians. Cretans: Liars.
They had to hear the good news in a language that would not snipe at them with insults.
See: Jer 49:36 - Then I'll let four winds loose on Elam, winds from the four corners of earth. I'll blow them away in all directions, landing homeless Elamites in every country on earth.
Isa 13:17 "And now watch this: Against Babylon, I'm inciting the Medes, A ruthless bunch indifferent to bribes, the kind of brutality that no one can blunt.
Tit 1:12 "One of their own prophets said it best: The Cretans are liars from the womb, barking dogs, lazy bellies."
Story teller
Date: 22 May 2004
Time: 06:06:38
ooppsss! soooooOooooooOrrrrrrryyyyyy!!! didnt mean to post and overpost the same thing over and over again! Pardon me. Story teller
Date: 22 May 2004
Time: 07:50:25
Storyteller, it was just a three point "sermon". Actually I found your post interesting. Pentecost is my favorite. Without the Spirit I can seem to even tread water. I sometimes wish I had a way of measuring it like you do your temperature! A Spiritmeter.
Interesting I had not thought of the Spirit overcoming all those prejudices. That gives me something to chew on this next week.
I am using the gensis and then the acts and doing a childrens sermon first. I may actually continue and add something for the adults right after it.
It is Memorial Day too which makes the crowd thin and the time short. Ahhh! Eternity all the time you could ever want or need... Nancy-WI
Date: 23 May 2004
Time: 02:33:39
I remember reading many years ago how Pentecost reversed what happened at the Tower of Babel: how, at Babel, people spoke in many languages, thus creating division, while, at Pentecost, people heard the Gospel in their own language and became "one in Christ". This seems to me to be an important message for these days when there are so many voices and so many divisions. The Holy Spirit is the binding influence within the Godhead and also within the Church. Wok Down Under
Date: 23 May 2004
Time: 17:33:40
I like the concept that the Holy Spirit is Counselor which in Greek apparently means "advocate for someone who is having trouble with the law." In terms of the law of God, the ten commandments, we all have trouble with God's law. Also, so often Christians are faced with questioning unjust laws and needing an Advocate in the Holy Spirit. Also Holy Spirit meaning breath: so often our breath is knocked out of us and we need a quick cpr resusitation of faith through the Holy Spirit. Just some thoughts; seeds at this point. Dobbs
Date: 23 May 2004
Time: 19:14:13
I always remind my congregation that without Pentecost and the arrival of the Holy Spirit, we would not be celebrating Christmas or Easter, which are their favorite holidays. If Pentecost had not happened, the story of Jesus would never have gone forth - the disciples were not motivated to go and spread the Gospel after Jesus' resurrection appearances, but only after Pentecost. There would be no church, the story of Jesus and God's work would be lost to history, and we would never be celebrating the Babe of Bethlehem or putting Crosses up anywhere - crucifixes or bare crosses. Pentecost is my very favorite thing to preach about!
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 08:06:47
Nancy in WI talked about a Spiritmeter. There is a process called Natural Church Development that attempts to take a picture of the dynamic (versus static) processes of a church. It is like a spiritual meter. You can access it at http://www.ncd-international.org/ . I have gone through training to be a coach in this process and think it has great potential if a church approaches it honestly. It focuses on the Biblical principles of growth...ie, God gives the growth. Our role is to provide a safe environment for that growth. For me, that is freeing...I'm not responsible for growth other than my own!!!!
Grace and peace, Prophet in PA
Prophet in PA
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 09:01:15
Without the ability to speak to someone in their native tongue, how can we even come close to sharing the gospel? We need to get past talking "christianise" when talking to the unchurched, but we also need to be able to speak to people whose English is sparse at best. Our church backs up to 3 apartment complexes. Within those homes are Hispanics, French Africans, people from India, and Orientals. Our task is to find ways to reach out to these families and we've come to understand that begins by speaking their language. This Sunday we're celebrating confirmation & Pentecost. Our confirmands memorized the Apostle's Creed. We've invited nearly 30 people from within our church family who speak different languages to stand & say the Apostles Creed along with the confirmands in a variety of languages. I'm hoping this will give us both a taste of the first Pentecost while raising awareness of the many language barriers we need to address in order to make our church accessable to the surrounding neighborhood. Thank you Wok Down Under for the connection to the tower of Babel.... that may be an interesting tie-in! I'm excited & eager for Sunday - even with a smaller than usual crowd..... mitcavis
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 09:12:11
I'm working on three related, but separate thoughts:
#1) While I proclaim that God is omniopetent and will do God's work when God wants to - regardless of the circumstances, I see churches absolutely closing the door on the Holy Spirit. While I cannot in complete confidence claim that people are capable of limiting God, I'd swear that I nonetheless see it happening all the time!
"We have a policy against this," "It's not proper to do that," "We can't have a VBS because we don't have any children," and my personal favorite, "We can't grow because our septic tank doesn't have enough capacity." (yes, these are all real quotes).
Then there was the time a group of people were talking and a new couple walked right by and not a one of that group turned around and even seemed to notice the new couple.
#2) Have the majority of mainline churches - regardless of whether they're technically liberal or conservative or moderate - simply closed their doors against the rush of wind that is the Holy Spirit???? I despair of ever seeing someone catch fire!!
My take is that the Lord has not built the house and those who labored, labored in vain. It was only a human (Babel-tower) structure designed for themselves. My current church included - may God forgive my judgmentalism.
#3) I'm in the midst of trying to create an environment for Pentecostwhile trying to avoid the Babel. The Babel gets the preacher tarred and feathered. Yet, you can't have a Pentecost without a Babel!
Musings on the nature of God, the nature of the church, and the nature of God's people.
Sally
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 09:15:45
And one more thought that occurred: a pun, kind of
I recall the words to the hymn, "O, God, Our Help in Ages Past," -- there's a phrase "Our shelter from the stormy blast and our eternal home ..."
Maybe all we're doing is confusing the church for the shelter from the stormy blast with the Spirit, and our eternal home with our church.
Maybe it's that simple.
Sally
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 09:26:14
I'm thinking of the theme: "Speak When the Spirit says Speak!" (borrowing from the song "You Gotta Sing when the Spirit says Sing") The disciples find their voices again with the coming of the Spirit. No longer do they remain huddled together in a room, but are given courage and speech to preach the power of God so all might hear and understand the good news. I know myself how too many times I remain silent, not trusting in the Spirit to give me the words to speak, when I'm afraid, insecure, etc. Yet Pentecost reminds us all that the Spirit is with us, empowering us in word and deed. GB in MI
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 10:46:41
First, let me thank everyone who has ever contributed here for me to glean from.
Second, I am seeking stories (witnesses) about times when the Holy Spirit has transformed a life (individually and communally). Last Sunday I preached on Ascension Sunday and my sermon title was "Promise of Power." The main idea was that Jesus--before ascending--told the disciples that the promise of God woudld be sent. That promise of power being the Holy Spirit. The word "power" in the Greek has a few meanings and I focused on these: ability, meaning, abundance, strength. I then said that the promise was that when we feel intimidated, confused, empty/scarce, or weak that the promise (Holy Spirit) will come---that is the hope that we live in now. In the meantime, we must "wait" (Luke 24:49). However, this waiting, according to Acts 1:1-11 and Luke 24:44-53 is an active waiting where we continue to "worship" and "witness" to the ways God has already fulfilled the promise in the past. All this said, on Pentecost, I would like to share some real stories about the "Promise of Power Fulfilled".
If you are called to share a story I would greatly appreciate it.
Thank You
--motown
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 10:55:15
I have always chuckled and winked at the line of Peter's -"Why no, they're not drunk. It's only nine a.m." But now, reading it again, I wonder what it would take to be mistaken for drunk by some but effectively witnessing to others. What would that look like now, here? Would I be willing to be misunderstood and ridiculed by the world to serve the Kingdom? Hmmm... tom in TN(USA)
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 11:50:30
This is bugging me. I seem to recall a classic story, perhaps a novel, in which the author mentions at least two languages. He or she names them, each with the suffix, "-speak." I didn't read the whole novel years ago when I started it, and now I can't remember what it was. Does that ring a bell for anyone? Thanks, MTSOfan
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 13:38:12
MTSOfan: Are you thinking of George Orwell's novel 1984? The government was attempting to install NewSpeak. This language would describe reality the way the government wanted people to understand it, and as they came to think only in NewSpeak, they would forget other realities.
This may not be a very adequate analogy for Pentecost, because the fascist government used NewSpeak to limit people's thoughts and capabilities.
Any Orwell scholars out there, please chime in.
LF
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 13:49:51
I am preaching this text to the preachers-to-be this week end by focusing in the later part of v.14-21.
My main proposition is that the Coming of the Holy Spirit enable any mere mortals like us to speaking forth the Spirit-filled Word of God: 1) It proceeded from our own personal encounter and obedience to the resurrected Christ; (Peter and the disciples obeyed and waited for the Holy Spirit as commanded in Chapter 1). 2) It is grounded in Scripture and Life; (Peter connected Joel's text to the current happenings around them). 3) It aims to bring the audience into a changing-relationship with God of salvation.
Since I won't have powerpoint or handouts, I am looking for some form of alliterations such as 1) Spirit-filled preaching started from the SELF, 2) Spirit-filled preaching grounded in SCRIPTURE, and 3) Spirit-filled preaching aimed for SALVATION. However, after reading an article on alliteration on http://homepage.mac.com/kentoncanderson/preaching.org/Sunukjian.html - now I think my sloppy attempt at alliteration might mis-communicate the message.
Many of you out there are way more experience at crafting alliteration for sermon outline. Would you mind share some thoughts and perhaps some suggestions for improving my three Ses?
Thanks.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 14:58:19
I think you're right, LF. Thanks! MTSOfan
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 17:02:37
Last sunday I dared to preach my first ever sermon on the Ascension. With 25 years of preaching under my belt, that is saying something.
Anyhow, being a novice on ascension-preaching I gave what I thought was a wonderful line "Jesus has left the building!"
Thought it would bring chuckles. Wrrroooooonnnnngggg! Brought stunned shock.
Well, my point was we want to have Jesus around so we can watch him being the Godsent one. And here he is sending US! He can leave the building because we will continue the work!
Terrified? Have no fear! Stay put! Power is on its way!
Storyteller
Date: 24 May 2004
Time: 17:22:17
Just for fun, and hopefully to pound a point home, my bulletin cover this week will be the Lord's Prayer in as many different languages as I can find. One language per phrase. The idea there is that while we might not be able to actually read and speak the different languages, we sure know what the words say because of our experience with the Lord's Prayer. We recognize the opening words "Our Father". It is a unifying prayer, spoken all over the world. The Holy Spirit is a unifying power, touching everyone as we seek to glorify God and follow Jesus Christ. We recognize our opening to do that through the Spirit, then it's up to us to take it from there. I hope this works!
KyHoosierCat
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 02:00:58
I know I should not put this here, but I have received no response to my problem when I contact DPS. I have been unable to use my member log in for three weeks and I don't believe my membership has expired. Is any one else having problems logging on to the member areas? Help, RevDave
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 06:49:11
I've participated in a number of small-group, multicultural Bible studies on this text, around the question "Is Pentecost a miracle of the tongue or a miracle of the ear?" (I believe it was Walter Wink who first posed the question that way...) The response is always fascinating. It reminds us that sometimes we need the Spirit to move us to proclaim, but sometimes we need the Spirit to move us to listen. And storyteller -thanks for the insight on the need to hear in your own language.
Leanne in AL
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 07:38:26
This is what I did for Pentecost last year-didn't take much work, but everyone really liked it and heard lots of good comments (we had two Baptisms scheduled that day also).
Pr.del in Ia
1: When the day of Pentecost had come, the people were together in Zion Lutheran Church. 2: And suddenly a sound came from heaven like the rush of a mighty wind- a mighty breath from the Spirit of God, and it filled all the building where they were gathered. 3: And there appeared to them tongues kind of like fire, divided themselves and resting on each one of them. 4: And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues-the everyday languages, as the Spirit gave them individual expression. 5: Now there were living in the Quad Cities, devout people from every nationality and culture under heaven. 6: And at this sound the whole bunch came together, and they were confused, because each one heard them speaking in his own language and slang. 7: And they were amazed and wondered, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Lutherans? 8: And how is it that we hear, each of us in our own style of language? 9: Scandinavians and Germans, Blacks and Hispanics, residents of the inner city and neighborhood and the suburbs and rural areas, rich people, poor people, powerless people single mothers and children, marginalized people, teenagers without direction, old people who don’t feel safe, gang members, addicts and whores, visitors from out of town, both Lutherans and other denominations, 11: unchurched people and those who had fallen way from the church, we hear them telling in our own ways of speaking, ways we understand, the mighty works of God." 12: And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "What’s up with this?" 13: But others sarcastic said, "They are drunk and stoned." 14: But one of the preachers standing up, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Hey, all of you from near and far, be aware of this and listen up. 15: We are not drunk, as you think, it’s only 9:00 in the morning and we don’t touch the stuff before noon. 16: but this is what was spoken by the Hebrew prophet Joel: 17: `And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your teenagers will see visions, and your seniors citizens shall dream dreams; 18: and even on the people thought of as low class in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they will have deep insights. 19: And I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth beneath, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke; 20: the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and manifest day. 21: And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.' 22: "Everybody, hear these words: Jesus from the little town of Nazareth, a man testified to you by God with incredible works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know -- 23: this Jesus, delivered up according to the plan and knowledge of God, he was nailed to the cross and killed by the hands of lawless people of the establishment. 24: But God raised him up, having freed him from the agony and pain of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 36: Let all the people of the Quad Cities therefore know for sure that God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ, this Jesus who was crucified." 37: Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to the Pastor and the rest of the church members, "What shall we do?" 38: And they said to them, "Daily, reorient and redirect yourselves to God, and live Baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your brokenness and sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39: For the promise is to you, to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." 40: And they testified with many other words and pleaded with them, saying, "Save yourselves and be released from this materialistic, selfish, godless generation." 41: So those who received his word were baptized, and that day there were added three thousand souls including Seth Clausen and Katie Babka. 42: And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and getting together, to the sharing food and communion and the prayers.
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 08:12:02
Before Jesus ascended into heaven, he told his disciples they would be filled with the Holy Spirit and become witnesses for him to the ends of the earth. As the people spoke in many languages, the all-encompassing nature of the church and its mission were revealed.
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 09:12:51
I have found it fascinating to reflect on the relationship between Genesis 11 and Acts 2 in this postmodern time. The unified group wanting to erect the tower of Babel and 9/11 and the topling of the statue of Sadam in some ways reminds me of the what happened when the languages were mixed in Genesis 11. I'm also struck by the fact that it says persons heard their language, not that someone spoke it in Acts 2.
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 10:18:47
KHC: wonderful idea! Would you mind telling me how you found the different languages so I can steal your idea?
A unifying prayer - everyone who calls on the name - whatever language (earthly or other) - of the Lord shall be saved.
hmmm... what language do the generations speak. "Church" means something different to my WW II white folks than it does to my younger black folks. It means something different to one who's been to hell and back, finding themselves drunk in a ditch and then been saved - than it does to one who's never really been away from church.
Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Cell phone companies sure do compete with their calling plans - so much so that their ads resemble the confusion at Pentecost - but they're sharing cell towers and such, so that it almost doesn't matter what plan you use. Call on the name of the Lord is a universal calling plan.
I think I'll title mine 'Can you hear me now?" Won't that be cussed? But really, the miracle is in the HEARING and understanding!!!
Gosh, KHC, you got my creative juices flowing, just with the Lord's prayer of different languages ... Thanks!
and if that was kind of rambling, I apologize. I've got my 6 yr old home with me this week and I'm distracted.
Sally in GA
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 10:22:43
Bammamma - so true! The antidote to pride is the power of the Holy Spirt.
Sally
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 11:22:26
The events of the day of Pentecost, God's breaking into the world of human affairs with wind and fire, are both surprising and expected. Expected by the reader because throughout the gospel of Luke, the first volume of the two-volume work that includes Acts, the Holy Spirit intervenes supernaturally on major occasions (see Lk 1.35, 3.22, 8.28-36). Expected, also, because the reader and the disciples know that the coming of the Spirit is promised, even from the very beginning of the gospel (Lk 3.16). Yet at the same time this coming is surprising. Bystanders are amazed to hear a multitude of languages being spoken by Galileans (notorious for being monolingual). If the disciples needed any more convincing (see Acts 1.6) that their mission had a scope beyond their group and nation, this proved it.
The gospel writer tells us that Peter stands and speaks, referring to authorities that the crowd of Jews and Jewish converts knew and trusted. By referring to Abraham, Moses, and the prophets, Peter lets the crowd know that this is the action of God not a freaking event. Peter relates not only to the traditions of his hearers but also to their recent experiences. The man Jesus, of whom they had experiences, was empowered by this same God (see verses 22-24). With this speech or sermon the disciples begin their public ministry that will continue to be energized by the Spirit's indwelling, and peppered with the Spirit's power. It is this public ministry and this Spirit that is still the model and the heart and soul of the church.
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 12:20:24
Ky Hoosier Cat, care to share your multi-lingual Lord's prayer, saving the rest of us the time to duplicate your efforts?
Leanne, perhaps the miracle is between the lips and ears.
Storyteller, thanks for the references to medes, elamites and cretans, oh my! And don't be disuaded from aliterating. The linked article had some good advice to help gauge, guide, and glorify your outline. Go with it! tom in TN(USA)
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 12:44:27
Does anyone have any input on the chronological discrepancy between this passage in Acts and John 20:19-23 that is read on the same day in the Anglican Church? I think I want to go that direction for my sermon.
Nigel
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 13:18:00
Nigel:
Ben Witherington writes about this discrepancy:
"This raises difficult questions about the relationship of this material to the Pentecost narrative of Acts 2. Did Jesus really bestow the Holy Spirit twice, or is this the Johannine portrayal of that scene in the upper room? (A variant of the first option would be to argue that Jesus bestowed the Spirit on the inner circle first and then on the larger group of disciples, including on the women.) If it is the latter, it must be admitted that it is a very different telling of the story from the one we find in Acts 2. In John 20, Jesus is present, in Acts 2 he is absent when the Spirit falls on the disciples. Some have even suggested that Jesus ascended between the visit with Mary Magdalene and the visit with what was left of the Twelve.
"To this writer, the approach that causes the least difficulties is the one that argues that John 20.22 portrays a prophetic sign act or parable on a par with the sort of gesture we saw Jesus perform in John 13 when he washed the disciples' feet. The gesture then does not entail an actual bestowal of the Holy Spirit at that moment. Several things point in this direction.
"First, after this episode the disciples are still portrayed as being behind closed doors in Jerusalem, not out converting the world. Indeed, in the epilogue in John 21 the disciples have returned to Galilee and have gone fishing, and it did not involve fishing for followers!
"Second, this Gospel is full of signs of various sorts, as we are reminded at 20.30. The gesture of breathing is clearly symbolic, making evident that the Spirit would come to the disciples directly from Jesus when he ascended and that the Spirit would be the Spirit of Christ. The gesture does not immediately transform the disciples from fearful followers hiding behind closed doors to dynamic missionaries, but the coming of the Spirit would accomplish this.
"Third, Jesus had said it was necessary for him to be away from the disciples in order for the Spirit to come to them. The contrast in 14.25-26 between Jesus being with the disciples and the Father sending the Advocate when Jesus is absent is clear enough, and even more explicit is 16.7: "It is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Advocate will not come to you; BUT IF I GO, I WILL SEND HIM TO YOU." The sending of the Spirit transpires when Jesus is away, not when the risen Jesus is still with the disciples. Lastly, this approach resolves the problem that Thomas misses out on the bestowal of the Spirit, if the Spirit was given in the upper room while he was not present.
"Thus in John 20.19-29 we have commissioning scenes in preparation for mission, but the Spirit was only later bestowed, enabling that mission to take place. The evangelist wished to make clear that the actual mission work did not begin until after Jesus had finally departed from earth; hence the Gospel closes twice (in John 20 and 21) without the portrayal of mission work but with the portrayal of two highly figurative stories that foreshadow the equipping for ministry (20.22) and foreshadow the actual mission work (21.4ff.)."
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 13:56:56
OK Here it is. The Lord's Prayer in multi-language (but without some of the accent marks required by the languages, you understand....) for a Pentecost Sunday Bulletin Cover:
Pater hemon, ho en tous uranois / Our Father, who art in heaven (Greek)
Dein Name werde geheiliget / hallowed by thy name (German)
Venga il regno tuo / Thy kingdom come (Modern Italian)
tapahtukoon simm tahtosi / Thy will be done (Finnish)
ta volunto soit faite en la terre comme au ciel / on earth as it is in heaven. (French, more specifically Protestant French, whatever that is)
Zhats mer hanapazord tur mez ayso / Give us this day our daily bread (Armenian)
Y perdonanos nuestras duedas / and forgive us our debts (or trespasses, for you UM's out there!) (Spanish)
Guk ere gure zordunei barkatzen diegunez gero / as we forgive our debtors (ditto UM changes here) (Basque)
Ac nac arwain ni i brofedigaeth / And lead us not into temptation (Welsh)
Si izbaveste-ne de cel rau / but deliver us from evil (Rumanian)
For thine is the Kingdom, and the power and the glory forever, AMEN. (uh, English???)
_______________
I wrote each line in a different color, not using the English translation or identifiers for the language. They won't know WHAT they're looking at until they get to the last line, then they will understand they knew what they were reading all along.
I put the name of the language for each line in the same colors on the back cover of the bulletin. The entire project took about 1/2 hour using Word and Printmaster 12.
I found the website by simply typing in "Lord's Prayer in World Languages" in my search bar, and chose the first one, I think. It gives a large variety of languages to choose from. You may be able to cut and paste if you want the correct markings (accents, etc.)
Hope this helps any of you asking about this for a bulletin cover. I have triple-checked for typos, and it looks OK.
KHC
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 14:08:01
Nope, I was wrong about the website. Here's the website I used for the Lord's Prayer - and it's only European languages, nothing from Africa or Korea, etc....
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/4021/Lord.html
KHC
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 14:18:18
Utupe leo riziki yetu / Give us this day our daily bread (Swahili. spoken in East and Central Africa) also check out http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/
Jack in Nairobi
Date: 25 May 2004
Time: 16:19:48
To add to the 'alliteration' discussion: A pastor I had many years ago used it so often that the congregation got caught up in counting the Cs or Ps in the sermon and missed the message altogether! I like much of what I read here today--thanks for the riches! Last week I focused on Jesus praying for the disciples and FOR US (those who will come to believe...). I think I will use the Tower of Babel reference also, and read some of the scripture from E. Peterson's "The Message" to make the point of using language others can understand. I also like the idea that w/out Holy Spirit, Christmas and Easter would have no meaning-- we wouldn't even know about them. Thanks for the ideas! It's starting to cook now.... Rev Janet in CNY
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 04:49:56
Japanese
Ten ni imasu watshitachi no chichi yo O-na ga agameramasu yoo ni O-kuni ga kimasu yoo ni Mikokoro ga ten de okonawareru yoo ni Chi de mo okonawaremasu yoo ni Watacshitachi no higoto no kate o kyoo mo o-atae kudasai Watashitachi no oime o o-yurushi kudasai Washitachi mo watashitachi ni oime no aru hitotachi o yurushimashita Watashitachi o kokoromi ni awasenaide, aku kara o-sukui kudasai Kuni to chikara to sakae wa tokoshie ni anata no mono da kara desu Aamen.
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 04:56:31
KHC: "tapahtukoon simm tahtosi / Thy will be done (Finnish)" is actually not correct. It should read "tapahtukoon sinun tahtosi."
Peace be with you! From Rev.E
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 05:10:58
I have read all of your comments about the Holy Spirit and appreciated some of your ideas. What I have'nt seen is my spin on the subject so here I go I hope it helps.
As I see it the Holy Spirit is an increadable gift sent to us and alive within us when we welcome the spirit of God to guide and speak through us. We all know how the disciples over and over again are described as not understanding the teaching of Jesus. This Holy Spirit filling finally brought all these teaching to light. Not only that, it gave them the words to communicate the Gospel to the masses in such a way thousands understood completely. This is a gift we all have as believers baptised in Christ. I think our lack of successfully communicating with others this message has a lot to do with our personal failure to trust in the HS power. Sure this power is mysterious and yes it is a leap of faith to trust in it but it works.
These disciples were ready after their 50 day waiting period where they were coached by the resurrected Lord. Even Peter, who had a track record of putting his foot in his mouth, spoke with boldness and over 3000 people, who had come as good Jews to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of booths, were transformed in to the Christian faith. They leaped after hearing God speak to them through Peters sermon. Please understand this was a huge jump for a these people to leave centuries of tradition and identity to embrace this Christian religion. But as we know it was the undeniable truth that slapped them in the face... Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord. KB in ks
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 07:05:47
RevE, you are correct. Don't know why I copied it down wrong, and why double-checking failed to catch it.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed other languages. I think this has been fun, and I think my congregation will "get it".
KHC
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 07:31:28
I've never had any problem reconciling the John 20 passage and the Acts 2 account. Even before Jesus said to the disciples, "Receive the Holy Spirit," they already had a measure of the Spirit, if St. Paul is correct (1 Cor 12:3), because they recognized Jesus as Lord. However, they were given a special gift of the Holy Spirit that Easter night -- the gift to forgive sins. ("Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them, etc." John 20:22-23) Likewise, on Pentecost they received more gifts, designed, I believe, to jump start the church. So it really isn't accurate to say the Holy Spirit first came on Pentecost, just that unusual and special gifts were bestowed on that occasion, some of which may not be with us today.
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 08:45:16
This week just happens to be my congregation's 169th Anniversary. I am entitling my sermon "On Fire For God" because what better way to celebrate an anniversary then by reminding the people that the Holy Spirit has indeed been operating here for all these years. And then helping them see we need to continue to depend on the Spirit for the future. We are a very staid church, we could benefit from a little more fire. Katie in Ontario
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 09:37:33
After some more study, there are a few interesting insights I gathered in the following items:
1) Why the "tongues as of fire", and not other symbols like sun, or square; and not even other body part like heart, eye, hand, etc. ?
2) There's a lot about speaking here. There are distinct Gk. words of "tongues" and "dialects", what's the difference there. More interestingly, Peter "address" (apophthengomai) in v.14 is the same rare Gk. word (used only 3 times in the NT, and 2 are in this chapter) which was used for "utterance" in v.4 (which the RSV didn't translate fully here). How is that relate to the "prophesy" (propheteuo) in Joel of v.17 & 18?
3) The parallelism in v.18 was under-translated. It is litterally, "And indeed on my male-servants and on my female-servants I will pour my Spirit and they will prophesy". The parallelism is with "I will pour my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy". The implication is that from "your sons" God will get "My male-servants" and from "your daughters", "my female-servants".
4) This is still a question I am working on. Peter refered to "blood, and fire, and smoky mist", which commonly the imagery of war in Joel. But he did,'t give any explanation for how he understood it in the context of Pentecost. Would it be a stretch to suggest that "blood" was Jesus's recent crucifixtion, and "fire" was the baptism of the Holy Spirit that they were experiencing? If so, what was "smoke"? (I know, I am approaching allegorical limit here, <grin>).
Rev Janet in CNY, thanks for your input on "alliteration". My revised outline will be a 4 points message on "Spirit-filled preaching started from where you STAND, grounded on SCRIPTURE, fostered by SPIRIT, and aimed for SALVATION". They are pretty closed to the text.
One more question. There was a rabinic commentary ended Malachi with "and the Spirit departed from Israel", can anyone point me to the right tradition to track that source down? Thanks.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 10:36:35
In the gospel of John, Jesus says he will send the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, to teach us and remind us of all that Jesus has done. It seems that here in Acts the Holy Spirit is teaching what Jesus has done in ways and languages that can be understood by others. In what other ways does the Holy Spirit speak to us, reminding us and teaching us of what Jesus has done?
RB in CA
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 13:36:28
Pr del in Iowa: Thanks for your rewrite of the text! I thought it was a hoot. I'm printing it as we speak.
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 18:43:16
Oh, my goodness! Great stuff this week! I seldom have a chance to check in before Sat being in my first pastorate but I'm ahead of the ballgame this week.
Interesting activities are going on this week in our community. We are having a Civil War battle reenactment going on in our city park during our worship service, the only one in town to begin at 10:30 am. In fact, the cannons are scheduled to go off during my sermon! Should make an interesting contribution - the Spirit arrives in mysterious ways!
And a joke - at my wedding 11 1/2 years ago we had a double ceremony. My pastor was my former youth director and pastor -a UMC pastor while the other bride had a retired Presbyterian pastor (I'm a Presbyterian Pastor now). During the vows for our couple the Presbyterian pastor backed into one of the candles and flames began spreading from his shoulder quickly and were soon flaring above where everyone could see. The grooms quickly put out the flames and the wedding went on without a hitch - my pastor never even paused (he is quite the professional).
I have heard him refer to that event many times since - "It was the first time I ever saw a Presbyterian Preacher on fire!"
I hope it won't be the last! Not that I ever want to back into a candle - I want to be on "fire" spiritually and noted for it - and hope you are too!
a newbie in the Ozarks!
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 19:49:34
I'm pleased and amazed that so many of you are stoked (there's a good Pentecost word) about preaching this text. I think I've yet to have a good, let alone great, Pentecost sermon. Maybe my expectations are too high - I would so much like to provide a taste of that kind of overwhelming experience, and I always fall short.
Some musings:
1) The list of the nations (Parthians etc.) reminds me visually of the parade of flags at the Olympics. It's so uplifting to see all those nations represented.
2) Pentecost has something to do with loss of control, or rather a willingness to be controlled by God. I think that's why it's so challenging, because loss of control is probably our greatest cultural fear. The funny thing is, when we do allow the Spirit to take charge, we surrender a soul-deadening, tiny, limited kind of control in exchange for a boundless, powerful, freeing energy. For most of us, the price that we pay is: potential embarrassment. Not our homes, families, lives - just the risk of social embarrassment. How sad that we're not willing to pay such an insignificant cost for such a huge gain.
3) Sally - when I read your quote about the size of the septic tank limiting potential growth, I didn't know whether to laugh or weep. Sounds like someone didn't have their sh--- I mean, didn't have their priorities straight. And I sincerely wish you all the best, esp. if yours is the kind of congregation where folks barely want enough of the Spirit's flame to warm a fondue pot.
4) Coho - this is a long, probably unwarranted, allegorical leap. My Greek prof thought there was an etymological relationship between "theos" and "thuein" (smoke) In primitive times, when people sacrificed, the smoke rose up to... whom and where? They named that reality God, as whoever received the smoke from their offerings. So maybe "smoky mist" could be seen in terms of offerings.
LF
Date: 26 May 2004
Time: 21:33:49
Blood, fire and smoke = War
Also = Pentecost imagery from Joel
Finally = Numbers 18:17 But the firstborn of a cow, or the firstborn of a sheep, or the firstborn of a goat, you shall not redeem; they are holy. You shall dash their blood on the altar, and shall turn their fat into smoke as an offering by fire for a pleasing odor to the Lord
This is especially interesting if the sun turns to darkness was happening as Jesus hung on the cross a few weeks before. Thanks, LF.
Coho.
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 06:06:45
Pentecost is the celebration of the giving of the Torah on Mt. Sinai. Pentecost is the birthday of God's chosen people. Chosen to live by God's rules. Chosen for covenant living.
Pentecost is the birthday of the church. This is the day when God's chosen people are born.
Chosen used to be a bad six word letter to me until I got a new perspective on it a while back. Suddenly it dawned on me that we are chosen not to be a snobbish better-than-thou but rather set aside to serve. We are chosen to be like Jesus. Chosen to live not by our own rules and limitations or our culture or societies norms, but by God's rules. And to make the point, the spirit crosses the boundaries of culture and race by choosing persons from such a long list of nationalities.
Pentecost is the birthday of the church.
Pentecost the day to renew our covenant relationship with God. Pentecost is the day to say to Jesus and his ministry "LIVE ON IN ME!"
I am on fire!
Storyteller
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 06:27:38
In this day and age, pointing that Arabs are named in the list would not be a bad thing.
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 08:20:18
Is it my imagination or are my people "God's frozen chosen," those who keep the pews warm, who support the cooperation, but who have never been introduced to the fire of the Holy Spirit, that mighty wind that blows through the wounds of Christ into our lives.
This is the Church's annunciation. As Gabriel announced to Mary that she would conceive and bear a son and that the Holy Spirit would overshadow her, so are we being overshadowed by this same Spirit which seeks an entrance into our lives as the Spirit did with Mary. The Spirit waits for our "Yes", Let it be done unto me according to your word." It is only when we agree to be used as instruments of the divine life that the Spirit makes its home within us. Once at home, we are never the same, always open to the transcendent Spirit who draws us into the love of God and calls us to serve our brothers and sisters.
tom in ga
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 09:12:02
tom in ga, I too understand this to be the same Spirit that overshadowed Mary. But it seems to me too public a presence for it to be an annuciation! If anything, its the spirit that was there at the birth itself, revealing to all, shepherd and magi, young and old, slave and free.
Thank you for prompting me to venture deeper in the story!
Storyteller
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 09:40:14
Just a blurb: My son (first grader) asked me this week to start reading a "Star Wars" book to him. Fascinating: it starts with the 12 year old Obi-Wan being trained in the temple in order to become a Jedi knight. He is fighting a peer blindfolded - this is supposed to help him "feel the force" and follow it. Obi-Wan can feel the anger and frustration of his opponent and himself is very close to just strike back angrily. Yet he knows: the more he gives in and follows his emotions, the more "the force" will withdraw from him. And only if he allows "the force" to work through him, he has a chance to become a Jedi knight. Very cool teaching about what the Spirit does to and through us!
Joke for Lutherans: What do Lutherans say during a Star Wars movie when a character says: "May the force be with you!" "And also with you!"
Germanpastor in CA
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 10:04:30
I know there's a story in me somewhere about a Pentecost experience but I cannot identify it. Maybe this is why I have such difficulty preaching this subject.
Items: "Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness." Mt. 4:1 Or, "The Spirit.. drove him into the wilderness." Mk 1:12. Or, Mary was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.." Mt. 1:18 "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit" Mt. 3:11
Before Mary's consent, God promised her the Holy Spirit.
"I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh.."
This is why I have a hard time preaching from the you-gotta-do or you hafta-be a certain way in order for the Spirit to empower you.
Yet, it seems important in Scripture to know something about the Spirit's work to the person involved or, in the case of us pastors, the Spirit's work among church members. That's humbling, isn't it.
The power of the Spirit isn't something like burning rubber with your car, but rather power to accomplish that which we cannot do in our weakness; normally it seems like there is just barely enough power to do the job. Normally there is no fanfare accompanying this power, like the infant born to Mary or Jesus going out in the wilderness.
Personally I don't want to think in terms of the Spirit driving Jesus into the wilderness. Or, maybe this is also important because it gives meaning and hope to the hard times we might have.
Anyway, I think it's important at this juncture in the church I serve to help them understand the promise of God's Spirit. My interim stay is coming to a close next month, and the one they are trying to call is having some personal difficulty in accepting the call. It will be helpful for them to know the above texts maybe, and to remember the Spirit will sustain them.
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 10:09:18
Sorry, the last post was mine.
Steve in KS soon to be in Carolina
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 10:09:18
Sorry, the last post was mine.
Steve in KS soon to be in Carolina
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 10:20:25
Sally,
I am afraid that if I had the opportunity to respond to the quotes you mentioned the bishop would actually learn my name. I don't think that I could resist, perhaps I could blame the Holy Spirit?
I have to go and ask forgiveness for the fit of laughter I just enjoyed.
Tbowen Rome GA
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 12:47:58
Storyteller,
The Holy Spirit moved at the beginnng of creation, manifested in the cloud on Sinai, from which the Ten Words were given to Moses; manifested in the prophets who were selected, because they bore the burden of their people, the pathos of the poor in spirit; with the prophecy of Joel comes the proclamation that now that same Holy Spirit will be poured out (overshadow) all flesh. It is the dynamic, might wind, that has enflamed the hearts of those who were "ready" to receive following the Ascension of our Lord. There was nothing magical about this event, it remains a mystery: why these people and not others. The Holy Spirit also was a gift to anyone who asked for it. Perhaps it is not a true annunciation, for Jeremiah, it was rape, for Isaiah it was the sense of sinfulness, for Mary it was her readiness; for our Lord it was his obedience at the Jordan River. For the disciples in the upper room or the Emmaus Road it was their memory of the crucified Lord (place your hands here and see that it is I) that tthey received the Holy Spirit to forgive sins; something is demanded of us, something is required, some kind of openness to the embrace of love and rapture, something about faith letting go of the present and embracing the end times, something aobut being willing to be molded, shaped, by the cross. Pentecost may only be celebrated when one has shared the sufferings of Christ.
tom in ga
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 13:44:01
I'm doing the tower of Babel on SUnday, but I was looking here, and I thought that I could add to the discussion. Some of you have mentioned that Pentecost was the Jewish festival that remembered the giving to the law to Moses (fifty days after Passover- that's where the name comes from. The fire and the smoke are symbols for the Exodus and the giving of the law (remember what led the Hebrew people through the desert- something about pillars of smoke by day and a pillar of fire by night) at Sinai. When God makes a covenant with Moses and the people moses throws half of the blood on the sacrificial altars and half on the people. Also, the blood would remind the people of God's covenant with Abraham, which come to think of it, also involved smoke, fire, and blood.
In a sermon preached at Westminster Abbey on last Pentecost by Canon theologian N T Wright, the point is made that Pentecost is about the restoration of two things- law and temple. The new law is written on our hearts, and the Christians have become the living temple through the presenc eof the Holy Spirit.
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 15:38:11
To the PROPHET IN PA: Whereabouts are you? I, too, am a trained NCD Coach and my church is contenting with Inspiring Worship. *S* I'm near Philly, PA.
As for this Sunday's sermon/message? I too am working to talk about God's "reversals" - from the BABBLE of Genesis to the BANTER of Acts...
I also am intrigued by the idea that the flames of fire dancing above us make us birthday cakes of some sort <grin> and am playing with this notion -
that I am a whole person "served" to someone who is celebrating the rite of passage from one year to the next....
Psquared in PA
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 15:41:45
MTSOFAN: I think you are referring to George Orwell's 1984 - but I cannot think of what the "speaks" were! I'll keep pondering. *S*
Psquared in PA
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 16:42:08
Pr.del in Ia thanks for the rewrite. I am taking the three "outcast people" posted by Storyteller and other named peoples and putting them on pieces of paper. I am starting with the tower of Babel passage, then distributing slips of papers with the outlaws and others on it.
I will then talk about who our neighbor is and ask those who are outcast to raise their hands. Each pew then will give them plenty of space... and I will encourage them to think of who could be sitting in that pew that we would consider an outcast. (the distributing will be done as the last part of the children's time. They will dance and then distribute. I love the idea that a church can be like the tower of Babel so I think that is going in. Then I will read the Acts passage. and then I am going to take the rewrite. I am going to collect the papers as a symbol of our acceptance to all who enter or encounter us. Now let's see how the Holy Spirit changes this... Nancy (ps. thanks for the link, I will check it out.)
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 16:52:09
The Lord's prayer is a great idea, I am saving it for next year. Actually the Spirit is overworking this week, their is way more here than we can use. However, abundance is always good! Nancy-Wi who thinks now that she forgot to sign the last post!
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 17:46:59
I am planning on speaking about the Spirit, the Pentecost experience, as a source of unity among people. It seems that our culture is so polarized, particularly in regards to religious and political issues. What does it mean to be open to the transforming Spirit so that we might learn to "speak new languages" and hear in new ways? Any thoughts in this direction? Christina in TX
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 18:39:39
thanks for the holy conversation tom in ga
Storyteller
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 19:56:31
Last year I taught Disciple II which spends a number of weeks on The book of Acts. This year I have found I have preached more of the Acts passages during the Easter season. So as I begin to reflect upon Pentecost this year I come (and I hope a number of my church people come) with a deeper appreciation for the book and how the Spirit moves throughout it. I think I am going to go to, or go back to, the Spirit breaking down barriers. I hope my people will remember how Peter had to have a dream before he could break down the barriers between the Jews and the Gentiles. Cornelius too had a dream or a vision that broke the barrier between Saul, a persecutor and himself, a faithful person following Jesus. Paul had a vision that sent him accross the channel into new territory and brought him to Lydia and others. On and on throughout the book there are examples of the Spirit filled people breaking down barriers that the times had set out before them. Even the Joel text says, "even upon my slaves, both men and women, I will pour out my spirit." It seems that text paves the way for Paul later to say, "Neither Jew nor Greek, Male nor female, slave nor free...." I see the Spirit tearing down the crap we put up that divides us, one from the other. Avis in KY
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 20:04:17
I have some questions regarding the tongues and language pieces to this story. Tongues seems to be interpreted as in the "spritual language" of pentecostal type churches which isn't typically accepted with my folk. Here it seems to be more of the actual cultural language. Knowing this, I feel like there should probably be a little discussion regarding the tongues in the passage to clarify. Just in reading I have some thoughts on how exactly this all happened. I know it's all guesswork since I wasn't there, but I wondered if you had any thoughts about my views.
1. That one person was given a language so that they would be heard by someone who spoke that language. ie spanish=spanish
2. Each was speaking their native language, but were being heard and understood in a sort of "magical translation" where they heard that language in their own ears.ie Spanish=hearing German.
3)A personal experience where I was in a room with a pastor in Mexico and understood what he was saying even though he was not speaking english, and I did not know spanish.
I know it kind of sounds like a can of worms, but I always learned to take your own hang ups and the congregations hang ups and investigate them so you don't get hung up in a sermon.
KP in IL
Date: 27 May 2004
Time: 20:04:38
I have some questions regarding the tongues and language pieces to this story. Tongues seems to be interpreted as in the "spritual language" of pentecostal type churches which isn't typically accepted with my folk. Here it seems to be more of the actual cultural language. Knowing this, I feel like there should probably be a little discussion regarding the tongues in the passage to clarify. Just in reading I have some thoughts on how exactly this all happened. I know it's all guesswork since I wasn't there, but I wondered if you had any thoughts about my views.
1. That one person was given a language so that they would be heard by someone who spoke that language. ie spanish=spanish
2. Each was speaking their native language, but were being heard and understood in a sort of "magical translation" where they heard that language in their own ears.ie Spanish=hearing German.
3)A personal experience where I was in a room with a pastor in Mexico and understood what he was saying even though he was not speaking english, and I did not know spanish.
I know it kind of sounds like a can of worms, but I always learned to take your own hang ups and the congregations hang ups and investigate them so you don't get hung up in a sermon.
KP in IL
Date: 28 May 2004
Time: 03:31:36
Yep. I have finally made the decision. Out of the bag of goodies for Pentecost, I am choosing to connect Pentecost not to the Tower of Babel, but to Mt. Sinai. Since this is the feast celebrating Moses recieving the ten commandments carved in stone and hence the making of the covenant people, Pentecost is the celebration of church recieving the Holy Spirit carved in human relationships (languages are about relationship-making). Blessings on us all as we preach! As John Wesley put it, catch on fire and they will come to watch you burn!
Storyteller
Date: 28 May 2004
Time: 04:58:29
Just as the "great commandment" is the fulfillment of the Law and all, Jesus is Immanuel, it seems to me that Pentecost is the fulfillment of God's wishes that the world be diverse and that we all learn tolerance for one another. At Babel, the people didn't want to go forth, so God acted sending them out. Still didn't get it... had to have Jesus and the Pentecost event...where they would now not be able to function unless they went in differing directions each hearing their own tongue. rp in MI
Date: 28 May 2004
Time: 07:01:21
Reading over late night post that I wrote last night, and realized an error. Meant to say Ananias not Cornelius-- yu'all know that! Avis is KY
Date: 28 May 2004
Time: 07:28:56
Here's an illustration I've used before (and may have even posted it on this forum) ...
Thanks, KP in IL for reminding me of it!
I had the opportunity to travel to Europe twice when I was in high school. First, to France, then to Spain. We visited all the big sights - but I was enthralled with these machines (maybe more than the sights). You pushed a button and you could listen through earphones, to a recording about the artifact, or whatever, in whatever language you spoke. But, it was simultaneous - not one at a time. So, I used to enjoy pushing the buttons for the different languages and hearing the recording pick up immediately in that language. It was much like KHC's Lord's Prayer ... the tape didn't start over, but picked up wherever it happened to be. It was fascinating to me that we were all looking at, say, Napoleon's tomb, and hearing the same thing in different languages.
Also, isn't there some sort of automatic translating machine at the UN? Like, the speaker speaks in his/her own language but the listeners listen in their own - and it's not through a human translator, which would mean a lag time???
Sally
Date: 28 May 2004
Time: 08:12:46
I am playing with pointing out that when people try to interpret the importance of what is in the Bible they do thing that are impotant to them, like produce a movie with too much grafic violence and call it "The Passion of Christ". In a 'real' movie Christ's death was about 10 minutes and his life would have been about 1hr. Then the rest of the movie could be about how his work was carried on by the Holy Spirit through his people. pastorbill in In.
Date: 28 May 2004
Time: 12:19:20
KP in IL,
From this text, there are two distinct Gk. words for "tongues" and "dialects". According to the surrounding immediate context, "dialects" seems to stress a rational, comprehensible communication, while "tongues" relates more to a Spiritual communication. For what it worths, Kittel's Theological Word Book of the New Testament also has atleast 9 references to the tongue-phenomena in secular Greek antiquities.
More interestingly, Peter "address" (apophthengomai, spreak-from or speak-out-of) in v.14 is the same rare Gk. word (used only 3 times in the NT, and 2 are in this chapter) which was used for "utterance" in v.4 (which the RSV didn't translate fully here). The prefix Apo denotes a sense of separation; you cannot address a crowd if you are part of them. It also conveys a sense of origin; you must have something important to say if you were to address someone. The origin of Peter's message was from God, it was that which the Spirit gave him to speak as we see in verse 4, litterally "as the Spirit gave themselves to speak-from"
It is also important to note that Peter explained the whole phenomenon as "prophesy" (propheteuo) in Joel in v.17 & 18.
Too bad, I could not use any of the above exegesis in my sermon this week since it's not fitting my theme. So there it is, use it anyway you can!
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 28 May 2004
Time: 12:46:12
I am thinking of connecting this passage to liturgy. We often say the doxology "Glory to God, whose power working in us, can do infinitely more than we can ask or imagine. Glory to God from generation to generation, in the Church and in Christ Jesus for ever and ever. Amen."
In that doxological statement we have the element of the Spirit within us. There is also the element of equipping, empowering, encouraging to do wonderful things...more than we can ever imagine (like speaking in strange languages, or proclaiming the mighty acts of God in ways that people can understand).
I think that all too often we forget what is possible when the Holy Spirit fills us. We even forget that we ARE filled with the Spirit. We become complacent, or stagnant in our lives and in our communities. We need to remember that filled with the power of the Holy Spirit we are enabled to do God's work in the world. We are able to reach out to each other, to proclaim God's message in ways that people will understand and HEAR. We are encouraged to reach out to all people (even the ones we don't like so much). The Holy Spirit working in us can do infinitely more than we can ask or imagine. Individually and in community. We say it on Sundays, now we just have to believe it.
Anyway that is where I'm headed...any thoughts?
Erin in Ontario
Date: 28 May 2004
Time: 18:29:50
Pr. del in IA, I loved your rewrite. I may do something similar -- hope that's OK. The people of my church definitely need to get the message that Pentecost is about them! Us! Not just saintly people from long ago. Thanks for the great idea.
Susan in AZ
Date: 28 May 2004
Time: 19:41:53
Steve in KS - Which Carolina?
kbc in sc
Date: 29 May 2004
Time: 08:21:00
I was attending a preaching conference early this year and a seminar leader was speaking/teaching about this text. He mentioned that the cultural groups of the Medes and the Elamites were non-existant at the time of this event. Therefore, emphasizing the power of the Spirit uniting us with those who aren't even present.
Have any of you ever found any references to this. I want to clarify if this is fact or fiction.
Thanks, The Procrastinator
Date: 29 May 2004
Time: 08:41:56
Great provocative thought Procrastinator!
Wow!
If the Elamites and Medes are non-existant at the time of this text, certainly the powerful message that the Holy Spirit united us past the barriers our history has erected and we might think of as "too late".
I would argue that whether the Elamites and Medes had be historically terminated at the time of this text or not, whether they are referred to as real or metaphors, the fact is for "real readers" (persons hearing this text today), the concept of many groups of people, many ethnicities, many of them obscure and unknown, are united by something that happens at Pentecost.
Thanks for the thought!
Storyteller
Date: 29 May 2004
Time: 12:26:50
Sorry, folks, the French is also slightly incorrect. It should be ta volunte, not volunto, and there is an accent over the final e (like this /) to make the sound like a long a. I was a college French major before seminary. Your bulletins are done by now, but for next year . . . Pastor Pat in NJ
Date: 29 May 2004
Time: 13:01:08
As ususal, I am working on the sermon late. Thanks to all of the good comments from all of you and thanks to Pr.del in Ia for the idea. I used it in my sermon, changing it to fit my Presbyterian congregation.
We have just started the Alpha course in my church and I am amazed at the reactions of some of the long time members who wouldn't be caught dead evangelizing. One actually said, "I heard that Sue came back from the Holy Spirit weekend "high"...... Another said that taking down our out of date pictures of Jesus from the 40s to make the newbies more comfortable was "threatening their identity." Still another pondered if "Alpha was a cult" and still another said disparagingly that "Alpha was taking over our church on Wednesday night." COME HOLY SPIRIT COME.....
Anyway, by retelling the scripture from the point of view of my church.....not only was relevant to these comments..but a lot of fun! Thanks again to all of your great insights.
Jude in Wash
Date: 29 May 2004
Time: 17:29:33
kbc in sc,
It's South Carolina -- Charleston, to be exact. I'm coming home finally.
It's a windy day in Kansas and I was hit on the head twice while rigging my sail boat this morning: once by the boom and the other by a shackle attached to the wildly flaying jib. This changed our plans and we didn't leave the mooring. Kinda reminds one of the power of the Spirit, doesn't it.
Who is in control here, anyway? We are currently glued to the weather channel because this part of Kansas is being threatened by severe thunderstorms and level 5 tornadoes. No permission from us is needed for the wind nor the Spirit. If we are able to give the Holy Spirit permission to work through us, than we would have the power of God ourselves, and I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to order the weather around as well.
This doesn't mean we are to be oblivious to either the weather or the Spirit --- for our own good we need to be informed about both, especially the Holy Spirit. The permission that is needed, I suppose, is that we say with Mary, "Let it be to me.." This is giving voice to our obedience which is quite different than giving our consent.
Steve in KS -- soon to be in South Carolina, God willing.