Date: 2/26/2004
Time: 8:12:43 AM
God promises a childless and doubting Abram that he will have a son, that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars, and that the land will be their inheritance. Abram's trust in God's promise is sealed with a covenant-making ritual, a sign of God's promise.
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 5:45:39 AM
you are correct but in the very next chapter Abram and Sari, doubting God's ability once again, devise a plan to create heirs for themselves with the fruit of Hagar's womb. CDW
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 7:16:16 AM
No matter how wonderful we may think Abram is because of his faith relationship with God, we always see in the human condition humans short sightedness, and misrepresentation of others. His objection to the available heirs, is clearly seen in this pericope.
Shalom
Sylvia
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 7:17:45 AM
oops, wrong name. Sylvia is bammamma
Shalom
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 7:47:23 AM
Aah, tough passage!
Initial thoughts:
1) The passage could be divided in half around the pivotal "And Abram believed, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness!" (Paul did a thorough treatment of this in Rom.4 so we won't repeat them here.)
1a) In the first part, it is so strange that Abram could bring himself to believe in God. He repeated his question/complain to God twice when God bragged about himself as a shield to Abram, and God didn't even address the complain in an adequate manner. Instead, God was just giving him more promise by his Word. No wonder it is so hard for us to believe, since we are so used to getting the proof needed in life.
But is it really no proof? God protected Abram in Egypt earlier in Ch.12, helped him win the wars in Ch.14 - so there were proofs for God as Abram shield! No, what Abram really meant were, "Your protection is not what matter in my life, it's my desire to have a son that's matter!" (Perhaps that's the motivation for Abram to leave Ur in the first place, when God promised that he will become a great nation!) This angle would rub against where many people are today: Does God deliver in the area that matter the most to me?
Unfortunately, God wouldn't give any proof. All He gave is Words and Promises. The setup is clear: you are to trust me, or not - no proof, no deposit. I am who I am, my Word alone counts. So, Abram decided to trust God (perhaps built on the limited experience he had with God's protection as a shield so far). Faith is incrementally weaved.
1b) After Abram chose to believe in God, He reiterared the promise of land and possesion. Once again, the rational mind of Abram kicked in, "How would I know? Give me proof!" What God did this time is using the ancient practice of the land (passing through the cut-up animals) to establish a covenant with Abram. Faith preceded covenant. Faith allow Abram to advance one more step closer to God. This time, "a deep and terrifying darkness descended upon him" (Aslan is terrible, but He is good). Notice the delay between Abram finished all the prep and the time the passing took place. God is also in a habit of taking His time. In the mean time Abram faithfully guarding the carcasses. Finally, God came and signed the contract - using human custom to accomodate for human weakness in faith. So, even after the mustard seed of faith was breaking out through the surface in the soul of Abram, God in his gracious and merciful way, continue to protect it and helped it grow. Twenty-five years later it will be a giant tree, where Abraham trusted God so much to be willing to slay his own son. But it started here in this pivotal breaking of the ground.
God of Abraham, of Issac, of Jacob; God of Jesus Christ; help us in this day and age to be able to have faith in you.
Coho, Midway City
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 12:10:37 PM
God equips those whom God calls.
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 12:10:38 PM
God equips those whom God calls.
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 12:10:38 PM
God equips those whom God calls.
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 1:11:01 PM
I'd like to quote an extended passage here that pertains directly to Genesis 15. It is from the recent book, "The Holy Wild: Trusting in the Character of God," by Mark Buchanan (an author I highly recommend, BTW):
"[God's] faithfulness began far back, first in creation, then through various covenants. Four thousand years ago, God made covenant with Abraham. Through Abraham, He chose a people for Himself, a people to walk in His ways, live by His grace, trust in His word, display His character. He *promised* all this.
"But here's the rub: He guaranteed the promise by *His* own faithfulness, not Abraham's. Abraham, left to his own, driven by his own anxiety and shortsightedness, would keep passing his wife off as his sister, would keep siring Ishmaels. Abraham, like other people I know, was fickle. He was too skittish, too slipshod of will and wayward of heart to uphold the magnitude of the promise. A promise this big--this cosmic, this historic, this intimate--needed to be established on something more solid than human willingness or ability.
"It needed God's faithfulness.
"The story is told in Genesis 15. God promises Abraham he will make him a mighty nation, and through him and his seed to bless all nations. To establish the promise, God *cuts covenant* with Abraham. This was an ancient ritual, in which the covenant partners hewed an animal in two. The severed pieces were laid out facing each other, a pathway marked between them. The partners of the covenant walked this pathway between the bloody halves of the carcass. This was to enact two things: a pledge to walk within the bounds of their promise, and a willingness, if they didn't, to suffer the same fate as the animal, to be hewn and scattered.
"Always, both partners walked the pathway.
"Except in this instance. Here, all the other elements of cutting covenant are in place--the promise, the halved animal, the two pieces laid out, a pathway between. Only this time, just one covenant partner walks the pathway. God alone does.
"The covenant, the vastness of its promise, depends on God alone." (The book is copyrighted 2003, Multnomah Publishers, and the quote can be found on pp. 59-60.)
Somehow or other, I plan to incorporate this wonderful explanation into my sermon this week. BTW, you may already know this, but I just barely remember from my study of Hebrew and with Buchanan's calling it to mind again, that the Hebrew verb used for "making" a covenant is in fact "to cut."
Blessings to all-- Heidi in MN
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 8:40:35 AM
Thanks, Heidi in MN, I've been kind of stuck -- and you helped!! PM in PA
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 9:38:02 AM
Thank you Heidi, you also helped to focus my thinking this week. In the Luke discussion, one of the latest posts by revgilmer (starts out with movie quotes) speaks of "the inevitability of grace" Good tie-in between the two passages. Blessings LGB
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 10:28:56 AM
Heidi in MN: Great quote! Thank you!
I am planning on relating this text to Lent by talking about the idea of covenant. God covenanted with God's people long before the gift of Jesus Christ. The Israelites -- the antecedents of the Jewish people -- had a deep relationship with God that was not superceded by the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Jesus himself was Jewish, as were the earliest Christians (there was controversy over whether the Gentile converts would need to become circumcised before being allowed to follow the Christ-followers). Christianity did not exist as a separate religion until some time after Jesus' death.
I am not sure EXACTLY where I am going with this, but I do want to do something with anti-Semitism, which unfortunately becomes more popular during the Lenten season. Whether or not Mel Gibson's movie encourages anti-Semitism (I have not seen it yet), Lenten practices in many eras of history have encouraged anti-Semitism even more than usual during this Lenten season.
But the Hebrew scriptures (the Old Testament) which Christians continue to include in our Bible, include such beautiful covenant statements as the one that appears in Genesis 15. God's covenant with the Israelites -- the Jewish people -- is a reminder to us of our heritage in Judaism. Yes, we are Christian (I assume most of you who participate in this forum are), and yes, we proclaim that the Jewish rabbi, Jesus, is the Christ and is set apart from all other humans as the Son of God. But God's covenant with the Israelites was real too. Does this mean that the Jewish people of today have sole claim over the land of Israel? I am not going to go so far as to say that. But it does mean that the descendents of Abraham, which include Jews, Muslims, AND Christians, have a covenant with God, and God's covenants will not be broken.
As several of you have said, Abraham was not perfect. He did not accept God's covenant as easily as God was willing to make that covenant. He was human and made mistakes, made what we consider today to be bad judgments. He was not Jesus Christ. But neither are we. If we truly lift Jesus up as the only Son of God, then we must accept that all others, including the very founders of our faith, are human beings who are not without sin. Abraham was the founder of 3 faiths, through his covenant with God. As such, the three faiths that grew out from his descendents are to be honored, as well as those who follow those faiths today. (This does not mean that faiths other than Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are not to be honored too. God makes covenants where God will, and God created ALL humankind in God's image.)
If anyone has any other ideas on tie-ins with this scripture to Lent, I would greatly appreciate hearing them!
Blessings and peace, California Preachin'
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 9:41:50 PM
Sorry I'm coming to this late this week, and without reading (just skimming) the offerings already, I think some things have been touched on.
Thanks for the great quote Heidi. The only point I would make on that is that God not only walks the covenant path alone ... but does it both directions.
This is not a story about Abram and Abram's faith. I think it is more a story of God and God's reliability. Abram had faith already before the covenant ritual took place in his dream. Not only that -- but he slept through it all. He was not even "in" the story at that point.
Sure Abram had conversations with God -- I believe God invites and responds to those. It's okay to complain and even question ... yet, Abram had faith and God felt it righteous. This is about God and God living up to God's promises to us. The difference between God's promises and our experiences of them is one of our perception (did my prayer get answered? no? yes? if it didn't get answered MY way, then it must not have been answered ... MY perception issue, not a lack of God's promise)
I sort of see God as the Everyman (pardon the non-inclusive language here) -- the Willie Lowman of the desert set, if you will. Abram has a close enough relationship with God that his doubts can waver and he can be honest about them, but, in the end, has faith even in the darkness that God will, indeed, come through. God is faithful. God is persistant.
This story is one of my first ah-ha stories thirty some years ago. It still blows my mind every time I read it, that God does not just speak a vow (which he does do), but God takes it upon the divine self to follow the ancient ritual of cutting the covenant ... and takes both parts of the covenant upon Godself. Only God will be forfeit ... God will fulfill the promises made. We are asked to promise or forfeit nothing ... yet, it is in grateful response to God's love and fulfillment of promises that we return our firstfruits. The life-blood of the covenant ritual animals shed for us and the life-blood of the covenant Son shed for us are the seals of covenants between creator and creature. The first is one of several ancient covenants, the latter is the newest and last, the one that is sealed forever between us.
mm in pa
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 5:31:31 AM
Thank you, mm in pa, for your additional thoughts. The part about God walking the covenant both directions is HUGE! Esp. these days when so many are seeing "The Passion of the Christ" (I have not yet) and some are calling it glorification of violence or sado-masochism, perhaps this covenant passage can help set some context and show how Christ took upon *himself* *our* failure to keep the covenant that had been "cut" and so, in a sense, suffered the same bloody, destructive, deadly fate as the animals which Abram laid out for the Gen. 15 covenant ceremony.
I am in the midst of sermon-writing at this moment. Thanks for adding some great thoughts to my work!
Heidi in MN
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 6:14:57 AM
Thank you all for your thoughts, Heidi and mm. I had written a sermon on the Luke passage, but yesterday the Word of the Lord came to me to preach on covenant, covenant of membership. Preparing Lenten activities (which the church claims they WANT), and then having few to none show up, having to ask people to give more financially...etc., I experienced God calling me to review the membership covenant (faithfulness of presence, gifts, prayers and service). Also heard the bishop speak about "distinctiveness" of UM tradition being the doctrine of sanctification, holy living. Lent the perfect time to address giving 1/10 of ourselves in every aspect of our lives, as per our membership covenant. God bless each preacher and each listener. Jane in Iowa
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 6:23:59 AM
I'm thinking of my mostly elderly congregation: you CAN have children when you're very old.
Sally
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 5:14:04 PM
Oops, in checking back and rereading what I wrote, I meant to say ABRAM was the Willie Lowman of the desert set. Sorry --- mm in pa
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 9:29:06 AM
Okay, you'd think I could get it right the first time .... when I said that God went in BOTH directions, I actually meant to say that God took BOTH PARTS of the covenant. It usually was when both people entering the covenant walked together through the animals .... in this case, God took BOTH PARTS -- as both the smoking pot and the flaming torch. Effect is the same, just didn't want to mislead anyone.
And the tie-in with Lent, I assume California Preachin' Pastor that you've connected that this IS the biggest tie in with Lent we could possibly have. God is fulfilling the covenant made -- through the incarnation and death of Jesus, God's self in the form of the Son, to fulfill the covenant once and for all.
This does not lead us to supercessionism, the idea that the Jews' covenants are in any way outdated. As you mentioned, those are covenants with us as well. If we negate them, then we say that GOd is faithless.
It astounds me that more people this week are not pulled to this passage. It is so seminal and central.
mm in pa
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 10:01:21 PM
Sorry for the really late post. However, I found it interesting that although the covenant is unilateral with God alone making the promise, Abram gathers the animals to be used in covenant making. He is a full participant in the covenant, even if he isn't required to take on any promises or responsibilities.
Rich in Bama
Date: 6/23/2004
Time: 8:27:15 PM
The covenant made in Genesis, chapter 15 is based solely on the love of God. Abram had nothing to do with it and no matter what he did, God will not break this covenant, mankind had no need in walking between because they had no control. This was God's covenant forever to Abram and his descendents. It is a faith factor on Abrams part.(Hebrews 11: 8, 9)Question - Is this God and the Holy Spiritas as the smoking fire pot and flaming torch? Abram is like a lot of us looking for his will, instead of God's will