Date: 16 Jan 2001
Time: 18:00:24
I like this passage. It helps keep pastors humble. I do my best to walk with God. However, I am loathe to have folks put me on a pedestal. Seems like folks either do that--OR tear their ministers down! The real trust and honor should go right where it belongs, to the living God! Anything we might do that's praiseworthy is mere a reflection of and a gift from Him who sends us. I think this might be especially helpful to the elderly congregation I serve as they sort out disappointments from principal people in their lives. Any thoughts on this? R in Bama
Date: 01 Feb 2001
Time: 15:28:40
In my reading this week I came across a question: “Am I more concern about what people think about me than what they think about the Lord my God? Am I more concern about what people think about me than what God think about me?”
In these times of easy faith, it is a routine for me to profess that I trust in God, but is my action really speak that truth? Am I spending more time running around depending on my ability to see things through, or am I spending more time in prayer depending myself on God to accomplish His purpose. Am I just exercising oratory skill without power, serving without the Spirit, and guarding the doctrine without love?
Woe to me! No wonder I felt so dry, so hungry and thirsty – like a shrub in the desert, like people living in salted land. If my heart is so devious that it deceived even myself, I pray that you Lord, search my heart and try my mind, reveal the places where I rely on myself and not You, so that I can honestly re-examine my life and practice putting my faith in you.
Coho.
Date: 02 Feb 2001
Time: 17:04:55
what do we do with verse 10? does it sound like justification by works?
Date: 03 Feb 2001
Time: 03:34:35
I enjoy this passage too. As for verse 10, I think of it as God giving us what we need to bear the fruit intended by God. If one of my houseplants has moist soil, more water will damage it and rot the roots; it may need a dry spell to remain healthy. I don't see it as being dependant on works, but rather "according to their ways" Am I a plant that needs lots of sun, or do I like it cool and shady? The fruit I will be able to bear will be in accordance to whether I am in the right habitat ( the one the Lord chooses for me) or one that is not as healthy for me. Please forgive the long continuance of the analogy. -Sparrow
Date: 05 Feb 2001
Time: 19:36:36
I didn't take Hebrew, so maybe someone can tell me if I'm right or not. But, perhaps the phrase, "according to the fruit of their doings", can be interpreted to mean that the "doings" themselves are the fruit of what's in the mind and heart?
This is Boy Scout Sunday in our tradition, and I see some good metaphors in this passage that the Scouts can relate to. Being in the wilderness and seeing trees near water, shrubs that have no source of nutrients, are images that Boy Scouts might get into. I'm also thinking of relating the message to the Scout pledge. Just some preliminary thoughts. MTSOfan
Date: 05 Feb 2001
Time: 21:19:30
Does anybody out there know which came first; Psalm 1, or Jeremiah 17? One repeats the other. tom in TN(USA)
Date: 05 Feb 2001
Time: 21:58:39
Dear MTSOfan----we also are celebrating boy scout Sunday......I like what you had to say..........can you expound on your thoughts and include the Boy Scout Pledge if it is not too long...or tell me where I could quickly find it....thanks..SC
Date: 06 Feb 2001
Time: 02:23:03
I would beware of the theological intergity of preaching on a non biblical text like the scout pledge. It is great, but this may not be its place. The problem I always have on Scout sunday is too much secular ritual and not enough emphasis on God. I was actually visiting a Lutheran church one Sunday in May when the pastor announced that since it was memorial day weekend, they would dispense with the usual apostle's creed and all stand for the pledge of allegiance as a substitute!! I was appalled, needless to say. Perhaps the link to scouting could be the verses about fruits of their works and the heart that trusts God rather than mortals. Is'nt that what scou8ting is about. helping young men and women to grow into repsponsible people who love and trust God and show that faith by their fruits. Rob
Date: 06 Feb 2001
Time: 04:33:46
vss. 9-10, [literally and in as close as possible to the word order of the Heberw]: Deceitful [see below] is the heart above all, and it is incurable; who can know it? [10] I [am] YHWH, who searches the heart, I test the kidneys even to give to each man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings [deeds]." The word deceitful is interesting because in its verb form it means to "follow at the heel" or "to overreach" or to "attack at the heel" [ambush]; and, by extension, to "bring consequence on" - to punish or reward. The word translated "incurable" comes from the verb form, to be weak or sick, but in its adjectival form means to be incurable as a wound [and metaphorically, "incurable". A very strong assertion that humans have an incurable disease of the heart; we don't come into the world tabula rosa,or even neutral, but rotten to the core. Perhaps Jesus referred to this passage when he said, "Out of the heart proceeds" all those wicked things he describes.
Regarding which came first, Jeremiah or Psalm 1 - I would have to bet on Jeremiah and Psalm 1 reflects Jeremiah, since Psalm 1 is usually thought of as an introduction to the entire book of Psalms [which was rather late in comparison to Jeremiah]. But note a big difference between the two: In Jeremiah the contrast is NOT between the wicked and the righteous [ala Psalm 1], but between the one who trusts in humans vs the one who trusts in YHWH.
Paul in central Texas :-)))
Date: 06 Feb 2001
Time: 16:09:26
Thanks, Paul.
The story goes; when someone was surprized that Albert Einstein couldn't immediately answer from memory a question posed to him, he replied,"But I know where to look it up." I'm glad I can look up answers in the pooled brain trust of DPS. tom in TN(USA)
Date: 06 Feb 2001
Time: 18:49:03
What you refer to as the Boy Scout "pledge" is probably the Boy Scout Oath:
On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country to obey the Scout law to help other people at all times to keep myself physically fit, mentally awake, and morally straight.
and the Scout Law is...
A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.
Date: 06 Feb 2001
Time: 22:25:26
Thanks so much for the scouting info. I do plan to use it as it relates to the Scripture not as the basis for the sermon.....
Date: 06 Feb 2001
Time: 22:49:53
a short meditation on verse 10:
God sees into our hearts, thereby seeing our motives as well as the deeds we do. Perhaps God will reward only those with the right motives in their hearts, with more spiritual strength, to do more ...Pure motives of unselfish love would be apparent to God, as would the results. After all, many times we don't see the "fruit" of our deeds, but God does.
RevJanet in CNY
Date: 07 Feb 2001
Time: 01:13:25
According to Craddock et al., Psalm 1 was probably modeled on Jeremiah, which existed before the psalm.
Date: 07 Feb 2001
Time: 13:49:41
Coho, great centering question! We should ask it of ourselves often. Thanks.
About verse 10- I think we protest too much concerning works righteousness. It seems to me, that if we keep it in context, it is a great comfort. I see this passage as a comparison between the way of situational ethics, living in the moment, for the moment, for instant gratification, as opposed to the slow, steady, long-haul faith life that does not worry about temporary setbacks, shifting trends, or occasional dry periods. Many saints grow weary as they see their best efforts at discipleship go unrecognized, unrewarded and misunderstood while noticing others who live self-serving, hedonistic, cruel lives that go unchecked. Verse 10 says,"Don't worry, don't give up hope, stay the course. Keep your roots in the river, God is watching and will settle all accounts in the end."
Date: 07 Feb 2001
Time: 19:38:50
It's not just the "bush" as opposed to the "tree", but also the heart vs the One who ". . .test[s] the mind and serch[es] the heart, to give to all according to their ways, according to the fruit of their doings". So we really have two parallel contrasts to place under our homiletic microscopes. Coho, you are right on target. Do we produce "juicy fruit" [Wrigley's would be proud of that]? Or are we dry like the bush on the desert? I think, if truth were known, we can say, "I am both at times." Then we cry with St. Paul, "Oh wretched [person] that I am, who will deliver me from this bondge to death? Thanks be to God, through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Paul in central Texas
Date: 07 Feb 2001
Time: 23:43:37
I'm intrerested in the portion of Vs. 6 that says " they shall not see when relief comes." I wonder how many times I have missed relief because I couldn't recognize God's hand at work, or I was just too preoccupied in what ever it was I needed releif from to see it when it came. I think I will explore this idea more.
Mark in SW Washington
Date: 08 Feb 2001
Time: 04:33:47
To: Mark in SW WAshington A good story to use is the one about the man who would not leave his home when the river began to rise. Otheres tried to get him to leave, but he just kept saying that the Lord would spare him.
(condensed version) First his neighbors came by in their big pick-up truck,as the waters were almost to his door, and he told them the Lord would save him.
Next Red Cross volunteers came by in a boat,as the waters were now up to the windows of the first story of the house. He sat in the upstairs and told them that the Lord would save him.
Finally, the Sheriff came in a helicopter as the man sat on the roof of his house with flood waters now up to the second story. They shouted down that htey had come to resuce him, but the man sat tight on his roof. He told them that the Lord would save him. They flew away.
The waters kept rising and the man was swept away by them and drowned. He got to heaven and asked God, why when God had promised to watch over him, God let him die. He reminded God that he trusted God who promised to save him. God's reply was, "I tried to save you three time. First I sent your neighbors, then I sent the Red Cross, and finally I sent a helicopter."
Charly in IN
Date: 08 Feb 2001
Time: 17:58:04
One theme which I have extracted from this passage and plan to weave into my sermon is "developing habits which nurture/nourish us." As Christians, we need to develop the disciplines of prayer, study, worship, Christian fellowship, etc., which will nourish us in our faith. Then we will have "strong roots" and be able to survive when the times of testing come. In a sense, I really think this may be part of what verse 10 is getting at: we can't be saved by what we do, but we do need to practice in our daily lives the things that will strengthen our relationship with God. Only by doing so will we have the "spiritual eyes" to "see relief when it comes" and to know that our trust in God is never in vain. A few thoughts to ponder.... RevLJD, Western NY
Date: 08 Feb 2001
Time: 18:25:36
The comments are interesting and helpful, but is no one centering on TRUST? It seems that trust is the most preachable point. Rotting house plant roots reveal a lack of trust on the part of those watering. (In reference to Sparrow's comments) - It may even be like my house where everyone waters because they think no one else watered!
Another thought - there is no one who can be completly trusted, except for God - yet, we become jaded and don't even trust God.
DN in NV
Date: 09 Feb 2001
Time: 04:47:07
It's Thursday night, and just in case someone is still struggling out there, I wonder if anyone would be interested in this topic, drawn from the Jeremiah and Luke passages: "Faith-Based Living" I don't think that's what Dubya has in mind, but isn't that the basis of both passages? --Moving in NJ
Date: 10 Feb 2001
Time: 01:49:44
Yes DM in NV, I'm focusing on "trust." I would love for someone to explain to me what it means to trust in the Lord. What is the difference between believing in God and trusting in God? What does it look like to trust in the Lord? Why should I trust God? It seems to me that belief can be an intellectual exercise but trust involves risk or letting go of that which is safe. I've been unable to find anything inspiring in my library concerning trust in the Lord. Also, it seems that we trust things or people that we know even there is no evidence of trustworthiness. Why do dollar bills say "In God we trust?" Can anyone help me? -- E
Date: 10 Feb 2001
Time: 03:47:01
On trust; verse 7 always knocks me down. I know that close repitition is a feature of jewish poetry, but what distinction if any is found in this statement,"Blessed are those who trust IN the Lord, whose trust IS the Lord"? For me it says that I trust not only in what I hear from, and understand of, the Lord. Rather, because I trust there IS a lord who can be trusted, I trust the Lord's love even in situations I don't understand. It's O.K., God's on it! How do you read it? tom in TN(USA)
Date: 11 Feb 2001
Time: 02:48:59
Trust IN vs belief THAT:
I believe an airplane can fly [that it is a possibility], but until I hop aboard, I haven't placed my life into this belief. At least this is helpful for me.
Paul in central Texas [a little late for desperate preachers!]