Three times Jesus says that his sheep are secure; no one will snatch them from Jesus' or the Father's hands. The sheep have eternal life and so shall never perish.
The powerful Hebrew image of God as shepherd of God's people is taken up by New Testament writers to speak of Jesus. Jesus, acting in God's name, offers the same promise of safety in which the psalmist rejoices. God and Jesus are one in purpose.
What is it about "Good Shepherd Sunday" that wins the hearts and worship attendance of so many Christians? What draws so many technological, fast-paced, nonpastoral types to shepherd and sheep imagery, today only truly relevant to a few rural types (who may, in truth, find the imagery to be more odoriferous than charming)? Are we longing for an escape? Are we retreating to a Saturday afternoon movie where we can convince ourselves, if for only a moment, that everyone lives happily ever after after all? Is it a visit to "First Century Land" in which we assure ourselves that there is a place where security, lavish tables, and quiet green pastures really do exist? Perhaps this momentary escape can indeed help us to face our lives. If so, how does this escape prepare us for the wolves in our concrete jungles and on our asphalt pathways?
What about the wolves? They don't go away. Where and who are our wolves today? How do they threaten us? How does the Good Shepherd protect us? And those wolves--are they all really wolves? Or are some just misguided sheep (sheep in wolves' clothing?) who need to be brought into the fold with us?
Go back to the Shepherd. Given our contemporary wolves and their sophisticated communications media, how do we today hear the voice of the Shepherd? In a generation of secularized sound bites in which many of the sheep have left for "greener pastures," what does the Good Shepherd's voice sound like? How can we learn to voice the Shepherd's call so that those who have not yet experienced the security of the fold can know it?
I repeatedly struggle with the image that only the sheep in "this fold" are secure, and that all others are prey to all manner of peril. I guess I'm a universalist at heart, because I can't get my mind going in that direction. I believe God loves and cares for us all equally, that God simply does not discriminate, and we're all part of his sheepfold whether we want to be or not. Some openly recognize that they're in the fold and are happy there; others rail against it, but are still there anyway; others are unaware where they are, they simply go along through life without thinking about it too much.
I guess I'm back at the Prodigal Son imagery. While the son left the "fold", his father never really let him make the final divisive cut. The boy still had a place at Dad's house and in Dad's heart whether he ever went back to claim them or not. Even if the boy had continued to live stupidly and had even died in the meantime, the father's heart would never close down, and the beloved son would have been welcomed or buried at home at the father's insistance. This is how I see God with us -- all of us.
But this passage clearly separates us all into US and THEM, which I really, really can't preach with any degree of conviction.
I'm finding this text quite challenging. So what else is new? I've never claimed to be a gifted preacher, and it's a very good thing I haven't.
I'll be reading with great interest as you all start to submit your posts.
KHC
OK, it wouldn't submit and I had to click my BACK button - so this might double post. Sorry if it does.
"For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." So much for the wolves? As far as the prodigal son - What if he never came back? Yes, certainly the Father would still love him. Jesus wept for Jerusalem. God can not force us to accept his love. But the prodigal would have made his own bed and would have to accept the consequences of that kind of life, separated from the love of God not by God's choice, but by his own choice. If we can't preach us and them, then what is the use of believing in Christ? Why don't we just worship Budha or Mohammed? PH in OH
I'm not so sure the Muslims worship Mohammed, or that Mohammed ever intended that he be an object of worship. I can't speak about the Buddah, but I think that's pretty much the case there, too. I am willing to be corrected on this, however.
I think Jesus Christ called us into a life of service and obedience, grounded in love - the agape love we talked about last week. He offered himself, the Son of God, in both life and death as the perfect example of that, and for that reason he is worthy of my worship. That's why I worship Jesus and not any other "god" or "holy one". I honor Jesus when my life is in line with his example, and it makes my life one of purpose. That is the reward I receive by being a Christian - my life has meaning beyond what I could give myself or find anywhere else. I am less interested in some reward that comes later, being enfolded into some eternal group that excludes anybody because they saw life differently than I did. I tell my parishoners who ask "why believe if you don't believe that the reward for it is heaven?" that believing just makes the ride of life so much more meaningful and grounded. I have a reason for living, and it is to love and serve the Lord - and serve others in his name. That is what Christianity is all about, IMHO. It has nothing to do with being separated out, but rather to reach out because God overcomes all barriers through Jesus Christ.
Now, having spent so much print-space saying that, I must now say that I don't want to separate myself out from anybody on this forum who sees things differently than I do. I respect that others may think Christians are a separate entity from the rest of the world. I won't try to change your mind, mainly because I can't. Nor are you likely to change mine. I just want to read what you have to say about the sheepfold thing and peril for those not in it. Thank you for your patience with me on this.
KHC
to the person who wrote: "What is it about "Good Shepherd Sunday" that wins the hearts and worship attendance of so many Christians? What draws so many technological, fast-paced, nonpastoral types to shepherd and sheep imagery, today only truly relevant to a few rural types (who may, in truth, find the imagery to be more odoriferous than charming)?"
I wish I had a congregation that even knew what Good Shepherd Sunday way. I resonate with the images used and love the Sunday myself but I don't feel like my church does. I grew up in a farming community, raised sheep as my pet and know exactly why Psalm 23 and NT uses the image of Good Shepherd but dont feel like my church get it.
Avis in Louisville
I'm Presbyterian (USA) and have never heard of Good Shepherd Sunday. It is not part of our calendar, but the fact that a shepherd theme happens this week in the Common Lectionary obviously means it fits in with somebody's calendar. I think Good Shepherd Sunday is a good enough idea to swipe one of these years.
Ah, Louisville. My home, sweet home of carefree days of youth......I hope it is well these days.
KHC
Dear Friends,
I have been doing some traveling this week. I have taken advantage of the Bible on CD. I was listening to the gospel of John and this passage in particular at the end of last week and was struck by the presentation. There was no over dramatization on the part of the readers as is done in some versions of dramatized versions. Still its words sent me cringing wondering what it would have been like to be the Pharisees, Sadducees and Priests who would have heard these words. No wonder they were angry with Jesus! If they did have in inkling he was the Christ then to have him pronounce these words must surely have hurt.
The fact is we will have to deal with some "us and them" theology here. To apply the message we may have to ask the question are we sure we are us and not them?
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Avis said, "I wish I had a congregation that even knew what Good Shepherd Sunday was." All I can say is "Amen!" For people who've been in church their whole lives, it seems so odd that every year it seems that this is the first they've heard about it. They claim to not remember, and while there is some validity to that (if they haven't noticed the pattern), it makes me wonder how invested any of us are in the first place!
I agree with KHC, and would add one more facet. I, too, am less-than-focused on going to heaven (I think that's why we have such dead churches, really, because all we have to do is get saved and ride out the rest of our earthly lives so we can go to heaven). Rather, my reward is today. Not the "get rich" scheme of the so-called "prosperity gospel," but because my life has life TODAY. It not only has meaning but it has hope, an advocate, a friend, with whom I'm in daily touch. How sad it is to live life "looking for love in all the wrong places," when the best place is imminent and alive. The hope isn't only for the end of my life, but for tomorrow, or even later on today! It's the applying of "kairos" into the "chronos" of my life that not only gives it substance but focuses me on something other than the immediate problem, while enjoying the immediate celebration.
OK, it's hard to describe in a DPS post, but I just wanted to chime in that I, too, have difficulty with the us/them, or in/out, sheep/goat dichotomy. Perhaps the sheep hear Jesus' voice because they trust, not because they joined the ranks or prayed a certain prayer. Last week, there was talk aobut "you've got to believe it to see it." Well, this is one such case.
Sally in GA
Some of the most powerful, heart-changing, life-changing sermons I've heard didn't mention heaven or hell even once.
What they did, when I thinka bout it, is validate God's love for me today. The sheep seek to return God's love.
Sally in GA
At least one clergy friend who grew up on a farm has trouble with the use of sheep to refer to Christians since he knows a sheep's odor and actions to be somewhat less attractive that positive.
But John A. Sanford in his commentary on the book of John called "Mystical Christianity", sees the use of sheep as refering to our own instincts, rather than individual persons. The instincts that come from (I would call it) prevenient grace enters by the gate, where are egoentric instincts climb over the fence to try and get into the fold. Using his commentary as a guide in my reading of the gospel has been very helpful.
Shalom
bammamma
"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me." I'm leaning toward a sermon on how faith comes to us as a gift from God and the ability to even hear Jesus' voice is also a gift that comes only because he first knows us. Without having first been chosen to hear the voice of our shepherd, we are deaf to it. We only have faith because God has faithfully chosen us.
Scrambled wanderings which may work themselves into a sermon!
PB in PA
(Before we begin, we should acknowledge that John used the word "Jews" in the fourth Gospel for the religious leaders, not the peasants. Interesting how the leaders were always used to represent the whole group; having a few rotten leaders and it ruined the whole group's representation... Also, fest of Dedication here is the Hanukkah).
So they came and ask Jesus about his identity as "the Messiah". What type of "Messiah" were they talking about? More likely a political saviour than anything else (since even Jesus' own disciples had that mis-understanding, it is safe to assume that these outsiders miss the point too).
Understand their misconception, Jesus could not give them a yes or now answer, but instead he pointed them to the analogy of the good shepherd (which start from verse 1). Jesus clearly stated that they did not belong to him (he may sound harsh, but the receipients may be glad since they might not want to be identified on his side either).
In v.25-26, it seems like faith must precede understanding. Without believe in Him, we will not be able to understand his Word and his Work, and we do not belong to Him.
v.27: The people who have faith in Him, "hear His voice" (not seeing Him); and He know them (even though they may not know Him); and they will follow Him (evidence of hearing His voice).
v.28 are the assurance to the faithful, that we will escape damnation and enter into eternal life; and no one can change that fact. v.29 reiterrated that fact with the Mighty God's authority.
The above two verses could open up a flood gate of Predestination vs. Free-will debate again, so proceed at your own risk <grin>.
Finally, Jesus stated for the record that He is one with God the Father, which steered the Jews immediately to stone Him (v.31-33)
This passage is loaded with theological doctrines, and may be it would be a good opportunity for me to affirm the essential beliefs for myself. That I must believe in order to understand; that hearing must be expressed in following; that I may not fully know Him, but I can rest in the assurance that He knows me; that nothing can separate myself from the love and the care of my God, including my own self, or even the Evil One; and that Jesus is God in the flesh, and by knowing Him we will know the One Who Sent Him.
May I have the right understanding of who you are, Lord.
Coho, Midway City.
KHC and friends,
I finished my initial observation first before reading your concerns about "us/them" issues. I too, struggled with this a while back. In my heart of heart, I hope for a universalistic resolution, for it is hard to swallow a Monster God. But God is God, and I am not - let alone trying to "swallow" anything, especially in the presence of various "us/them", "heaven/hell" passages in the Bible.
So I take comfort in this "wimpy" position: Since we can only be certain by the things He let us know, let our lives responded well to Him in these certain-areas, so that we don't have to be worry about the uncertain-areas. Therefore, let us concentrate on building people up in Christ for that's the certain way for them to be included in God's flock.
Having said that, here are some propositions I had in the "uncertain-areas":
1) If God is good and righteous, then whatever He does will result in absolute fairness. No one will be able to make excuses in regard to His judgment (Paul dealt with this at length in early Romans, especially 3:3-4)
2) Paul suggested that our God's given conscience could be used for that judgment (Rom. 1:18-20), or our own ethical living or the law (Rom. 2:9-16). Peter said that Christ "went and preached to the 'spirits in prison' who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah" (1 Peter 3:19b-20a), which some took it as salvation is available even from hell. CS Lewis suggested that after death, God will allow for people who have yet to know Jesus a chance to make decision. Another scholar suggested that God do not judge us based on the milestone we attained in our journey of faith, but the trajectory of that journey (toward God or not). Bonhoeffer (I think) did not believe in universal salvation, but believe in universal opportunity to accept salvation.
3) What I am saying is this: If the limited human's wisdom could "suggest multiple options for God" to get Him out of the bad press, wouldn't God himself (who created human intelligence) be able to come up with something else way beyond our understanding to accomplish His will?
4) However, the essential will remain: That no matter how a person attain eternal life (by the "certain" way of "accepting Christ", or by various "uncertain" propositions above); it will have to be done through Jesus, for "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved". Eternal separation from God is a real possibility enough for Jesus to die on the cross: "if there is any other way - please let this cup passed from me". If there is any better other option, the Father should have taken it already.
6) In conclusion, I will hope for the best (universal salvation), but since that option was a bit "uncertain", I then will have to work with what I can be more "certain", namely the disciple-making work of building up people who know God and obey God.
I also respect the view you have too. I want to repeat what KHC said that, "I won't try to change your mind, mainly because I can't. Nor are you likely to change mine. I just want to read what you have to say..."
In essentials: Unity; in non-essentials: Liberty; in all: Love!
Coho, Midway City
KHC:
Re: Good Shepherd Sunday
I don't think the Sunday has an official designation as "Good Shepherd Sunday" but for many the 4th Sunday of Easter has come to be called that because the Gospel reading in all 3 years of the lectionary comes from the 10th chapter of John (Year A - Jn 10.1-10, Jesus the gate for the sheep; Year B - Jn 10.11-18, Jesus the good shepherd; Year C - Jn 10.22-30, Jesus sheep hear his voice and follow him) and the Psalm for the day is the 23rd in each of the three years.
One pastor has written: "'Good Shepherd Sunday' recalls a beloved image of Jesus, even among contemporary Christians who have never seen a shepherd ... or a sheep. It is a favorite visual metaphor from antiquity. Surviving mosaics and frescoes from the first three centuries of Christian history feature Christ most ofen as a beardless 'good shepherd.' The 23rd Psalm might be sung today by choir and people in Joseph Gelineau's lovely setting.
"After the reading of the Gospel, but before the sermon, a child from the congregation, with significant skills in public reading, might recite William Blake's brief nd beautiful poem, "The Lamb," which witnesses winsomely to Christ. It might be an even more endearing moment if the child were to carry in the arms a favorite stuffed animal, a woolly lamb."
Tom in Ontario
Tom in Ontario,
Thank you for the information. I had never heard the 4th Sunday of Easter called "Good Shepherd Sunday", even though I had noticed we always talked about the Good Shepherd soon after Easter. The things you learn from DPS! I appreciate your time to educate me on this.
KHC
Season: Winter.
Place: Portico of Solomon, Jerusalem.
Time: Festival of the Dedication
Problem: End the suspense drama. Are you the messiah or not?
Response: Check out my actions as the testimony.
My sheep identity: Hear my voice. I know them. They follow me. I give them eternal life. Sheep snatchers cant get them.
Point: You seen me, you seen Dad.
hmmmmm.... big names in such a small piece: Jerusalem, temple, Solomon, Festival of Dedication, Messiah, etc.... still working
Story teller
Season: Winter.
Place: Portico of Solomon, Jerusalem.
Time: Festival of the Dedication
Problem: End the suspense drama. Are you the messiah or not?
Response: Check out my actions as the testimony.
My sheep identity: Hear my voice. I know them. They follow me. I give them eternal life. Sheep snatchers cant get them.
Point: You seen me, you seen Dad.
hmmmmm.... big names in such a small piece: Jerusalem, temple, Solomon, Festival of Dedication, Messiah, etc.... still working
Story teller
belonging.
Is it okay to allow other people to belong elsewhere? Perhaps elsewhere where they feel more welcome, at home, etc. Perhaps a critical element of hospitality is allowing other folks to say "thanks but no thanks" and not being offended they have chosen another fold.
just a thought. dont take it too seriously. its just a thought.
storyteller
In Mark 6:11 Jesus gave instructions to the apostles, "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them."
It is a part of being a good shepard that some sheep will not be a part of the flock. It may or may not be because of us. In some instances it will go unknown to us. But it is a truth of delivering a message, any message. There are those who hear and will not listen.
Those instances most clearly call for us to emulate the Christ. To stand and deliver a consistent message, not one of harshness, but consistent compassion. If you choose to believe, believe and emulate the Christ. If you choose not to believe, we will love you, we will forgive you, but please reconsider. Feed/Tend the flock.
Welcome any newcomers, welcome the oldcomers, welcome the CEOs. Rejoice when they return, pray when they do not.
I would hope that all come to Christ. I do not believe in predestination, because I think we have the choice to listen or not. I do not proselytize, but I will disuss. I must believe that Christ is the only way to come to the Father, but it is not the hope of heaven that drives me. It is my gratiude for the blessing He has given. It is my priveledge to serve the Living God.
John in IL
I'm glad other people are concerned about the us and them issue of this text. The only good news here seems to be that those who follow Jesus are safe and those who haven't heard the voice yet are left out in the cold. And that dosen't seem like very good news for those who aren't in the fold yet. Not good news for the "unconverted". It sounds more like a threat for them. (For fellow Lutherans, it sounds like the Law and not the Gospel -- yet it almost looks like Gospel.)
Frankly, it dosen't even sound very Jesusy. What about the shepherd that looks for the one lost sheep, or the widow for the lost coin? Dosen't this text contradict those?
I have no conclusions yet. jw in tx
I'm told by a classmate who went to the Holy Land that many different shepherds brought thier sheep to water them and he saw the problem getting them seperated from one another. To his amazement.... every sheep knew his own shepherd's voice and followed him as he walked away from the water. Now that image has always stuck with me. On the 4th Sunday of Easter I tell the story he told me and then add simply.....we follow the Good Shepherd Jesus and we need to know his voice and listen to his Word. Its a short homily but I think it strikes home for the folks to listen to God's Word and to know what Jesus says to us as we pray.
Ed in Iowa
Because God loves all words and their opposites, Matthew 54:43-48, 1 Corinthians 16:14, Eccles 3:1-8,
God wrote all words in the Open Code of Love for their opposites.
Therefore, the good sheep are simply all those in all nations and in all religions in Love of all words, Acts 10:34-36, who will therefore know that LOVE is the code-breaker, John 10:34-35, and IN LOVE is HOW to DECODE Jesus' words and therefore will HEAR and KNOW his voice [it has that Tone of Love!] and so UNDERSTAND His WORDS,
and them the bad sheep are simply 1] the minor group of all mankind who FOR NOW hate all words, and 2] the major group of all mankind who FOR NOW 2] love some words and hate their opposites, matthew 6:24, who will therefore NOT know how to decode God's words and so will NOT know not understand the words of his voice!
God's plan is UNIVERSAL for all mankind to be saved just as all Israel will be! Romans 11:26. No fish nor any sheep shall be lost!
So in Love, John 10:22-30 reads like this:
10:22 At that time the festival of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem
in Love for those who loved winter and summer: they were hot in Love though cold in body, Revelation 3:15-16,
and in Hate for those who hated winter: for those who hated winter, they were cold in body and cold in spirit. Matthew 24:10,12. It was winter,
10:23 and in Love of winter and of summer Jesus was walking in Love in the temple, in the portico of Solomon.
10:24 So in double coldness the Jews gathered around him and said in hate to him, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."
10:25 Jesus answered in Love, "I have in Love told you who are in cold Hate, and therefore you in hate will not and so do not and so can not believe what I do in Love. The works that I do in my Father's name which is Love testify to me;
10:26 but you in hate do not believe in Love, because you in Hate do not at this time belong to my sheep who are in love.
10:27 My sheep in Love hear my voice of Love. I know who they in Love are, and they follow me in Love.
10:28 I give them the eternal life of Love with which to live both mortal and immortal life, and in eternal Love they will never perish. No one in Hate can or will snatch them out of my hand.
10:29 What my Father has given me in Love is greater than all else, and no one in hate can snatch it out of the Father's hand.
10:30 The Father and I are one in Love, one Love like this:
[The following needs LESS decoding.]
John 17 21 That they all may be one in Love;
as thou, Father, art in Love in me, and I in Love in thee, that they also may be one in Love in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me in Love.
22 And the glory of Love which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one in Love, even as we in Love are one:
23 I in Love in them, and thou in Love in me, that they may be made perfect in one Love; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me in Love, and hast loved them as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me in Love where I am; that they may behold my glory of Love, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world in Hate hath not known thee in Love: but I in Love have known thee in Love, and these in Love have known that thou hast sent me in Love.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name Love, and will declare it in Love: that the Love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
[The following needs THE LEAST decoding: it is plainly already decoded.]
1 John 4 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for Love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is Love.
9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is Love, not ONLY that we loved God, but that he ALSO FIRST loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation OF LOVE for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man IN HATE hath seen/UNDERSTOOD God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his Love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen AND UNDERSTOOD and do testify that the Father sent the Son IN LOVE to be the Saviour IN LOVE of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess IN LOVE that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the Love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Code-breaker
Coho, Midway City: Excellent 6-point on is/them.
I had her people describe themselves or others as "Universalists" but had never had one explain their rationale until about a month or so ago during a class. The instructor, whom I will clal "Don," confessed to having Universalist tendacies and explained it very succinctly: "I have a difficult time believing that a loving Creator could be happy knowing that a part of His Creation is beyond redemption." Don explained the party in the New Heaven and New Earth as an ongoing party where those "outside" of the Redeemed being given an ongoing invitation to repent ... not just to escape "the fire," if you will, but an earnest repentence in which they acknowledged Jesus as Lord and Savior of all mankind. Interesting paralells ... Grace and peace, Buzz
oops! That should have read: "I have heard people ..."
sorry Buzz
It seems to me that we are jumping into a premature conclusion in assuming the "them" sheep are damned or hellbent or something nasty like that. The text does not read that way for me. We only hear of the prize the Jesus sheep will get: eternal life.
Could be that we are programmed into incorrectly imagining that if one group gets eternal life, the "other group" will not be getting any eternal life. Our concern about "what we get" as some indication of "what they wont get" could be misleading.
I want to preach about What Jesus Promises those who follow him. I want to stay away from getting into a theology of my-way-or-no-way.
still struggling Storyteller
Coho: You wrote that you "hope for the best," and then you (wish I could underline that) declare what the best is. We need His best plan; oursbeing designed by us, will be flawed by our desires which change. I've never been uncomfortable, or felt less than loving by not being a universalist. And it never made my God small. In this, as in so many other areas, while I desire to understand, I acknowledge that His ways and thoughts are higher than mine. lkinhc
Greetings in the name of our Good Shepherd, I do so enjoy 'listening' to all of you. Especially on this topic. I have come to the conclusion that my ministry is as under-shepherd to the Master Shepherd. With that in mind, I believe I will preach on the 23rd Psalm, with trips into John for emphasis.
I too have 'universalist leanings' (please don't tell my mother...) and have difficulty with the us vs.them aspect of John's passage. I much prefer us + them (a both/and solution). As shepherd, don't I have the responsibility to care for all sheep in my pasture? If someone else's sheep have wandered into my pasture, do I let the wolves eat them while protecting my own? I cannot live that way. As shepherd, I give myself to them all.
C2 in WS
KHC: While I have only read posts up to your contribution on the 25th, I wanted to respond as well to what seems like a division of the sheep. The difference I see in what Jesus is saying is that "my sheep HEAR my voice. I know them and they follow me." The sheep that hear and follow are the sheep of the fold that Jesus is speaking of here. As you say there are many gradations of that; perhaps these Jews Jesus is speaking to are in the midst of those gradations.
In another scripture verse, Jesus tells us that there are other sheep who are not yet of the fold. I believe he is speaking there of those to whom you speak in your post. Even in the midst of the "fold" are those sheep who hear the words of God and interpret them in different ways. I guess what I am speaking of here is the "us" and "them" mentality which seems to be so prevelant in my area.
Have not gotten to pondering these texts much; but will be following the conversation avidly. May God bless our work this week. ~ pbetty in NY
pbetty,
Verse 26 says, "you do not believe because you do not belong to my sheep", a clear division between sheep in Jesus' flock and sheep outside of Jesus' flock. This is my main problem, since I'm of the opinion that we're ALL in God's fold.
So, maybe there are many corners to God's sheepyard. We're in the one with Jesus, the Jews are in the one with Moses (or Abraham or Elijah or David), and the Muslims are in the one with Abraham and Mohammed. We all mingle around together, but as a previous poster suggested, when it's time to listen to the voice of our own shepherd, we go with the one we know and trust. For you and for me, that would be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
I'm not trying to trivilize here, but am sincerely trying to reconcile my beliefs with this text - and several other texts, too. Your posts have been most interesting to read through.
KHC
God alone is the true shepherd (Ps 23 and Ezekiel 34). When Jesus says that he is the true shepherd, the question arises whether Jesus claims himself to be God (or in the nature of God). Jesus answers this by saying plainly, "The Father and I are one." If God is for us who can be against us and therefore we are safe in the hands of Jesus. This is the reason why the risen Lord showed his hands to his disciples! It is a way of saying that the risen Jesus can protect any one. (Selva Rathinam)
KHC I have this vision of dying and going to "The New Jerusalem", being met by Mary Magdalene, Judas and a whole other disciples through the ages who beckon to me to follow. "Sh," they whisper. We go down a long valley pathway. It is very narrow with a lot of doors on either side. As we walk along, on occasion, someone peeks out of a door and steps in line with the rest of us. One door, looks so inviting, and I love the laughter behind that door. It even says "Open hearts, Open minds, Open doors, on the outside. Oh do I want to go in that door. It seems so-o-o familiar and inviting. But I hear a voice ahead that though vague is so familiar, and so I keep going down that corridor. Finally the group, the disciples, and those of us who have followed them open onto a place where..., Well I have no human words to describe it. One of the disciples then smiles, and says, "God will be so glad when the rest of the folks accept the fact they aren't the only ones up here, and then all will be in heaven". With that I smile, throw my arm around my worse enemy in human life, and wandered after Jesus.
Shalom
bammammma
Part of my problem with the gospel of John much of my life (prior to finally getting some education on it!) has been the tone that we can so easily find in it, the black/white, good/evil dichotomy. But one way for me to reconcile that is to read these things as descriptive, rather than prescriptive. That still leaves you with a bunch of folks left in the dark, of course, but it doesn't include such a smug sound to it.
The other thing that I finally came to back in seminary days (may be heresy, but it's how it works for me) is to concentrate on Christ as the second person of the Trinity, the Logos, the ordering principle of the whole world. From that perspective, everything from the atom to the human heart was created to be aligned with God through Christ. For me, that second-person principle can be present in places where Jesus' name is not uttered, and in fact when other names are uttered instead.
I don't say this to try to convince people of other faiths that they are really Christians at heart. And I know it still leaves the question of needing to actually claim the name of Jesus. But if I believe that the whole world was created through him, and that life indeed will have the final victory, even over our worst attempts at derailing it, then I have to believe that Christ is in all things, working for redemption, especially wherever love gives its life for the sake of others. And that gives me comfort. To find God, people still have to align themselves with who Jesus was and with the power of God that was/is at work in him, but I guess there's a place in my head that says there are different ways of making that choice.
Who knows if this holds water? I'll jump on the bandwagon of not trying to change anybody's mind--just throwing in my two cents.
Oops--the one trying to hold water :-) is Laura in TX.
Anyone else having a problem with "decision theology?" I keep fighting the "we" make the decision about God. I believe that God has made the decision about us and all we do is in response to His love. Passages like these sound very "decision oriented." How can I get across that faith is something that "claims us?" Do we decide to follow or if we are His is His the voice we hear? Help,I get confused. NDHillbilly
To all the brothers and sisters who are struggling with the "problem" of "us" and "them," and the question of whether a loving God would keep some out of heaven: Assuming you believe that the Word of God is inerrant, what do you do with John 14:6 ("I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one come to the Father but through me.")?
PD in CA
C2 in WS,
You asked, "If someone else's sheep have wandered into my pasture, do I let the wolves eat them while protecting my own?" According to I Peter 5, we are all shepherds of the "Great shepherd; therefore if you see a sleep wandered into your pasture, your responsibility would be taking care of His sheep.
lkinhc, you were right: I shouldhave written, "I hope for the easiest way" instead. Sometimes we think what best in actuality would be what laziest instead.
Coho, Midway City.
The inerrancy of the Bible is not something I assume. We Presbyterians declare the Scripture to be the authorative Word of God, but are under no mandate to accept it literally or as inerrant; there is a large difference between the two. The Presbyterian Church calls itself the Reformed Church, always reforming, and so we move into new understandings of the Scripture when the Spirit of God calls us there. That's one of the reasons the Presbyterians no longer teach predestination. Well, some do, but relatively few of us. It's also the reason we allow for such division of views among the membership. Whatever the issue du jour, Presbyterians will likely be divided on it, and with no fear of repercussions or talk of heresy. I think there are several denominations that allow for freedom of conscience and freedom of belief, and would permit not accepting the Bible as inerrant.
Bammamama, thanks for the story. Loved the "won't they be surprised!" theme!
KHC
Potpourri:
A good illustration about following Jesus' voice, from a sermon by Mark Roper: Once a friend of mine went swimming in a large lake at dusk. As he was paddling at a leisurely pace about 100 yards offshore, a freak evening fog rolled in across the water. Suddenly he could see nothing: no horizon, no landmarks, no objects or lights on shore. Because the fog diffused all light, he could not even discern which direction the sun was setting.
For thirty minutes my friend splashed around in panic. He would start off in one direction, lose confidence, and turn ninety degrees to the right. Or left--it made no difference which way he turned. He would stop and float, trying to conserve energy, and concentrate on breathing slower. Then he would strike out again, blindly, of course, for he had lost all orientation. He was utterly lost until, finally, he heard voices calling from shore and was able to guide himself by the sounds. -
There is some evidence that the "Good Shepherd" figure in Jewish tradition was associated with the Messiah. So, even before he says "The Father and I are one," Jesus has in essence proclaimed himself Messiah and stirred up the Temple authorities.
Speaking of Blake's poem, there is a lovely setting of "The Lamb" by John Rutter. I believe it's a part of his "Mass of the Children." It's a part of the "Agnus Dei" section of that work.
Grace & Peace, Ken in WV
NDHillbilly,
Your problem is my problem with this. This is decision theology. It is not about the pre-existing grace and love of God (which is what Good Shepherd Sunday should be about.)
In this text, Jesus is talking to the religious authorities who are trying to trick him and kill him (they try to have him stoned in the next few verses.) To anyone else, Jesus would have said that God has made a choice for us first -- but he wants these people to think about it more.
I think that the problem we're finding is with the lectionary choice here. This is supposed to be "good shepherd" Sunday -- a day about the peace and Goodness of God's love (not a day of decisions, which might be appropriate antoher day.)
Seems like the lectionary people just grabbed a text that mentions sheep and shepherds, but it is really more like one of those where he calls them a "brood of vipers" (I know that's in Matthew).
It's not an appropriate text. And once I get over that, I think I'll be able to come up with a sermon. jw in tx
KHC - I know this space is supposed to be for discussion of the appointed lesson, but your comments about Scripture intrigue me: "...always reforming, and so we move into new understandings of the Scripture when the Spirit of God calls us there."
So, help me understand something. How do you really know if it's the Spirit of God calling you there? If one does not accept that all Scripture is inspired by God and inerrant, how do you know what IS and what ISN'T? And how can you be sure? Even more so, how can YOU be sure of YOUR salvation? Seems to me such a position lends itself to an awful lot of uncertainty, something Satan would have a wonderful time exploiting.
PD in CA
PD of CA
"all Scripture is inspired by God and inerrant" I personally would think that you realize that quite a few pastors are not following that premise. If I was to follow that, then I (and my ancestors) have sinned. "Slaves be kind to your masters" means the whole of African Americans in the USA are sinning, so I guess none of us are going to heaven.
The last was not sent by KHC but by an anonymous writer
anonymous
I'm at a loss how to describe it any more clearly - The Scripture is authoritative, meaning it is the basis for my understanding of God. Yet the Spirit continues to reveal God's involvement with us, and new revelations are not only possible, they are expected. Just as I am able to reconcile God in the OT with God in the NT as the same God with a new message, so I am able to understand that God can continue to bring new messages post-1st century. My criteria for believing whether it's the work of the Spirit or my personal preferences is simple: if it shows the love of God, it is most likely of God. If it somehow depletes God or God's people, it is not of God. Sometimes we're wrong in our assessments, but the Spirit is a pretty good guide, I think.
OK. I have veered us off-text long enough, and I apologize profusely to everyone. I now encourage us to return to the text and the discussion of Jesus/voice/sheep/hearing/not my sheep/eternal life/snatching/not snatching........
KHC
Laura in TX,
what you believe does make perfect sense:
We are to live by what WORDS Christ spoke: John 13:35 and John 6:63, and NOT just by his name, in order to not be decieved. Matthew 24:4-5.
So everyone everywhere who believes in Love actually believes in Christ, just as all xtians who beleive in Love also believe in Buddha and Moses and Gandhi and etc!
Universal Love
Can someone with better Greek skills than I tell me whether verse 26 has any ambiguity? Could it be "You do not belong to my sheep because you do not hear my voice"? I'm not trying to make the text say something it doesn't, I just want to be clear about what it actually does say! As I recall my Johannine lit course (almost 10 years ago now), that tended to be the slant much of John's telling of the stories tended to take: there was a clear us/them, but those who were part of the "them" were there by their own choice/stubbornness/hardeness of heart.
Heather in Sharon
Earlier (vs. 16) Jesus said, "I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold." It's not as though we human beings can easily identify who belongs to Jesus. And it's not up to the rest of us to decide which groups of sheep are acceptable, who is hearing and following Jesus' voice. The point is, if we hear and if we follow, we belong, no matter what.
Maybe somebody from another religion may hear Jesus' voice but not recognize it as such. The contrast is between those who hear Jesus' voice and follow, and those who take up stones to kill him, who actively reject him. This is not talking about those who faithfully and respectfully follow another religion and are concerned with the truth. Jesus is not tied to our religion. Jesus is free to speak to anyone he chooses, in whatever way he chooses.
Let's talk about something else. DGinNYC
The real question is not who's in and who's out, but where is Jesus leading us and are we willing to follow? Those are the most difficult questions to wrestle with because they demand a personal response.
DGinNYC
Thanks to DG in NYC for getting at what I was trying to say earlier--
For me this text has already been a real comfort personally this week. My father has been very sick for months, I'm getting ready (**supposed** to be getting ready) for a new appointment in June, and I've been nearly obsessed with immature imaginary conversations with the couple of parishioners who have not accepted me or my stab at leadership in this place, conversations that finally set the record straight, once and for all.
Finally last night as I lay in bed, frustrated with myself for all the stupid things I do under stress, I remembered that I can indeed hear Jesus' voice, and at the risk of sounding sappy, it's a sweet voice. And the word that no one, not even the Council of Idiots in my own head, can snatch me away from his care, felt like such a gift, a relief. There is indeed somebody bigger than me, someone else who justifies me so I don't have to. All that's necessary is for me to hear his voice and do my best to follow it.
Don't know quite how to preach from this without being so self-revelatory, but that's what's working in my head right now. Maybe the sermon will head toward helping folks discover or think about how they hear the voice of the Good Shepherd. (As someone said, this really isn't the right text for that, but it is in there.)
Please forgive my self-revelation in your midst!
Laura in TX
Okay, I'm a lay person preparing a sermon for a small church in Australia, oh and I'm 25, so go easy on me. With that qualification out of the way...
What makes someone a disciple if not their response to hearing Jesus' call? Are all people disciples? Clearly not. Jesus says "I have told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name testify to me; but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me." (sorry for the extended quote)
Whomever sees and hears God when they hear and see Jesus belong to the fold. However, I would hazard a guess that each of us on a Christian journey knows that to walk with Jesus is not to say that we will always walk in righteousness, never fall, fail or choose to deny Jesus.
God's grace thankfully allows that the 'gate' will never be closed, but I have experienced times when, even in my 'Christian-ness', I fail to hear Jesus' voice.
It is tough, but when we love things that stand in opposition to the God we meet in Jesus we are not hearing Jesus call. Not that we can't or won't, but we certainly aren't.
Ezekiel's prophecy calls to account a people who have lost sight of God's sovereignty over their lives. Similarly, Jesus challenges us to hear his voice and believe that his works witness to the glory of God.
Gee, that was longer than I meant it to be. Thanks for some good leads.
PAN
Laura in TX - actually, the self-revelation might be good for your congregation. You don't have to get down to the nitty-gritty, but to acknowledge that there ARE stresses that are real and that not EVERY appointment is akin to seraphs flying around singing "holy holy holy" and that you cope by listening to Jesus - this could be healing for you and your congregation. You'll have to spend some serious time in prayer so you don't come across as pointing fingers, but rather acknowledging that there are hurts. Listening to Jesus' voice keeps us ALL focused on the big picture.
Speaking as one who's "been there"
Sally in GA
I'm a new reader to this site, but I noticed the conversation about one of the first entries, the one on 4/19, 10:06:03 AM, which begins "What is it about 'Good Shepherd Sunday' that wins the hearts ..."
FYI - I recognize that as the "Images for Preaching" section in the worship publication, SUndays and Seasons, by Ausburg Fortress. I always like to look there each week (but I didn't post it).
Thanks to everyone for their intriguing ideas. --A Lutheran friend
Anybody run into the concept that Shepherds were at the bottom of ancient society? Assumed to be thieves, they were not even allowed to testify in the courts of the time, so suspect were their motives and ethics. Jesus usually spoke in such a way as to give his listeners spiritual whiplash - no fond and fuzzy images of shepherds and sheep for them!!
KHC - would love to communicate more with you in another venue than this - you are exactly where I am .
KCS!
Dear Friends,
This text is clearly about belonging to Jesus. Not about NOT belonging. Let those who know the Good Shepherd's voice vote with their feet and lovingly, sincerely and humbly invite others to join. None of us are in any position to speculate, prognosticate or salivate over someone else's decision to not follow.
Fool For Christ
I am with KHC in calling everyone back to the text at hand also. Theological differences will not likely to resolved here.
Sometimes, we posted an opposite viewpoint on the matter, such as "Universal Love, I disagree with 'all xtians who beleive in Love also believe in Buddha and Moses and Gandhi and etc!' because of '...'" was just a way to go "on the record" to inform other readers that "not all of us DPSers are in unison on this". But beyond that, let's refrained from pursuing these tangents more than necessary.
We are here to examine the text, and to connect the text to the people we minister to (in our own diversed and different context). So, let's see what else can we gleam from the text.
Heather in Sharon: you opened up a can of worm there in v.26. Because of your question, I dug a bit deeper in the grammar there (for I am not preaching the lectionary this week), and what I found is the sentence structure suggested that the cause of their unbelief was that they are outside of His flock. So, if you take a more "inerrant" view of the text, then it's not "You do not belong to my sheep because you do not hear my voice", but "You do not hear my voice because you do not belong to my sheep". But if you take a "big-picture" view of the text, then you could make a case for it based on the historical context of the text. I was wrong in my earlier comments on v.25-26 on Monday (now I see the issue of election/predestination lurking underneath there, but this could be my own theological preferrence.)
Coho, Midway City.
I don't think this passage speaks to the traditional 'us-them' ideology. I hear this scripture as referring to those who have decided to not follow ('the non-sheep') and the example is given of the everlasting life ('the sheep').
If one has the free-will to chose, it is mournful, but there are those who, when presented with the decision, will choose not to follow Christ. I am not specifically speaking of all non-Christians, just those who, after consideration, do not choose Christ. But how does one still try to reach out to those who have made this choice?
I hear in verses 25-30 a Jesus almost pleading with those questioning him. Jesus makes a compassionate case by explaining the promises given to 'the sheep' rather than condemning 'the non-sheep'. No condemnation, just compassion. A great example for us as encounter the present day 'non-sheep'.
John in IL
In response to Coho's earlier question concerning what to do if you see someone else's sheep endangered, one might want to look at Deut. 22:1ff.
Of course, if we want to take all of Deuteronomy literally, then we need to deal with 21:18.
West Texas Presbyterian
i'm looking for details/facts about shepherds and shepherding and can't really find what i'm looking for. anyone know of some good resources? i think knowing more about the profession would help me understand these texts better. i think it's intriguing that we love the good shepherd imagery so much even though we don't (most of us) really know a lot about sheep and the lot!
To the not ID'd poster looking for more info on shepherds: One of my favorite books on Psalm 23 is "A Shepherd looks at the 23rd Psalm" by W. Philip Keller, who worked for a number of years at that profession. He specifically ties his experiences to Psalm 23, but preachers might find valuable insight for this text as well. I think it's still in print. Check your local Christian bookstores.
As to the matter of "us vs. them," I think such an approach to this text throws it all out of context. The truth is, those who weren't responding to the Messiah's voice were the very ones who SHOULD have been - the religious leaders of the Messiah's (and God's) own people. In other words, some of those who should have recognized Jesus' voice weren't. In this context, Jesus' self-identification as the Good Shepherd may carry with it subtle references to Ezekiel 34, where God condemns those who are supposed to be shepherds of God's people, who are not doing their job, and then says, in v.11-12: 11 "For thus says the Lord GOD: I myself will search for my sheep, and will seek them out. 12 As shepherds seek out their flocks when they are among their scattered sheep, so I will seek out my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places to which they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness."
One aspect of shepherding that Keller discusses is the stubbornness of sheep, and the shepherd's need to sometimes be severe with some sheep in order to save them from their self-destructive wilfulness. But the severity grows from the shepherd's great love for the sheep. In the same way, I don't think Jesus' severity here is intended to divide the world into us vs. them - I think it's intended to call back those whom God desires to have in God's flock, but who have refused to hear the Shepherd's voice. This text isn't supposed to be warm and fuzzy -it's a warning to us who claim to be a part of the flock - are we acting as if we're listening to the shepherd? Or are we acting like stubborn, wilful, foolish strays? Ken in WV
P.S. - The quote from Ezekiel 34 is from the NRSV. Ken in WV
Already the Trinity begins to unfold, the indwelling love of the Father and the Son, and their mutual indwelling through the Holy Spirit within us. The whole reading echos with love and the divine embrace of his children. The story begins with the creation fulfilled in the Cross, and draws us into a new life as a shepherd calls his sheep.
tom in ga
You can really hear the dichotomy of the discussion as you hear the difficulty with the universality of John's Gospel but a text that seems to be elective and selective. I think it's always interesting to listen to "election" theology where God elects people to be saved. I too wonder if maybe the key to the text has to do with Shepherds, sheep, and faith. Shepherds in Jesus time were not thought of as the epidomy of piety in society. And, Jesus uses an Old Testament image of the caretaker shepherd. A friend of mine who grew up on a farm that raised sheep reminded me once that sheep smell and when you bend over, one of them will certainly butt you and knock you over. I think we begin to understand the text when we struggle with the image Jesus protrays of himself as the shepherd and we as the stinking rebelous sheep. The difference between the sheep in the "sheepgate" and those outside the sheepgate is faith (ie. "hear my voice"). It's probably not an "us" verses "them" understanding, but that the Shepherd would love to have them in the flock and all they have to do is listen. In my systematic theology I understand that it is the Holy Spirit who gives the gift of faith so the listening becomes important. I don't think John nor Jesus has a problem with "election" theology here. Rather, I think both John and Jesus are being universal. I think Jesus is again inviting the Pharisees into the flock as he did so many times. Yet, they would not listen. Lynn in Blair
It is good to remember that us/them thing going on in John. I'm not sure we can ever forget that point of view, whatever we are reading there.
That being said, the "sin" in John, as has been pointed out by numerous commentaries, is not a moral/immoral sin, but the sin of not recognizing the Lord in Jesus Christ. For my part, I think those are on the right track when, like Coho, they look to the original Greek (which Coho has so graciously done) and translate it "You do not hear my voice because you do not belong to my sheep". That puts the burden of where the fold separates on the sheep NOT on the shepherd.
That is how this fits into the us/them Johannine theme.
Oops. Didn't mean to be anonymous -- the last posting was from mm in pa
I once heard that shepherds tend to walk behind sheep. As a result, they find themselves walking through sheep dung. Jesus then becomes the once who walks with us through the muck in our lives. He doesn't stand above us, but right in the middle of the mess we make. Emmanuel - God with us.
Can anyone who knows about sheep verify this characteristic of shepherds?
Thanks! Rev. Steph in MD
I am concentrating on hearing the shepherd's voice. Like someone earlier, I too am saying goodbye to a congregation. I want to tell them not only that God loves them and that we all need to listen to the shepherd's voice, but that they have the opportunity to help others learn to hear his voice too. Here's part of what I'm going to say:
"...I tell you this so that you know that you have taught me the lesson of being loved. What’s more - you have tremendous power to teach the lesson of being loved to each and every person who walks through that door. As a matter of fact - you have the power to teach even those who don’t come here - those who are too sick or too weak or too lonely or too poor to walk through those doors. You have the power to teach all of them that they are loved.
"And let me tell you a little secret - when people learn the lesson of being loved by you they begin to learn the lesson of being loved by God. When you love them, they feel an inkling of the love of the Father. When you call their name, they begin to hear the voice of the shepherd. As you continue to love them, they get better at recognizing the shepherd’s voice....
"...I will pray that you are strengthened and blessed - and that you remember the tremendous power you have to teach the world about the love of God by simply being yourselves and loving each little lamb you meet - those in the flock and those wandering around straining to hear the shepherd’s voice."
Beth in CA
I am going to take a different approach to this passage and look at it from the vantage point of the Jews gathered around Jesus. It is the festival of the Dedication, the remembrance of when the Maccabees overthrew the Greeks. Judas Maccabee would have been a messiah to the people, the one who saved them from their oppression. Now it is the Romans, and the people are again waiting for a messiah to save them from oppression. Because they are listening for marching orders of a particular kind (to establish their kingdom through force) they have not been able to hear Jesus proclaim that his kingdom is established in grace and love. The kingdoms of this earth pass away, but life in the kingdom of God is eternal and its citizens have life everlasting.
Our temptation is still to look to Jesus to be the kind of messiah who forces others to be like us, rather than the messiah who works in us so that we may be like him.
OLAS
I am a Lutheran pastor in New Jersey. My middle school-aged son brought the following letter home: "Dear Parents, My office was informed this morning that two attempted child luring incidents occurred in (OUR)Township this morning. At approximately 8:00 a.m. a student (from our school) was approached by a man in a black pickup truck at the (identified) bus stop in the (neighborhood) area. The student ignored the man and the pickup truck drove away. At 8:10 a.m. the township police reported that an elementary student who attends school in the (neighboring town) reported being followed by a black pickup truck on (identified route near identified fast food). This student approached a nearby adult to report the incident and as he did so, the pickup drove off. The driver of the pickup truck is described as a white male between 30 and 50 yrears old. The police are investigating. I will share with you any further information that I receive. Once again, incidents like this remind us to speak regularly with our children about the potential dangers of talking to strangers. In addition, please ask your children to report such incidents immediately to the school administration. Sincerely, Name, Superintendent of Schools." I thought this might serve as a useful illustration. I will certainly use it. Every parent in our town is worried about their children being snatched. Parents are recalling scary incidents when their children got lost at the mall. Who do you trust? We will be receiving new members this week in our church, two adults by Baptism, one child by Baptism, and about 25 total. So, I will be talking about hearing and responding to the Shepherd's voice, the joy of belonging, the experience, which is quite palpable this Sunday, of receiving a gift of finding one's self in a secure place in a scary world. This is Easter joy, to have an Easter life, and not even death can snatch us away from Jesus' strong, nail-scarred, victorious hand. After all, now we KNOW who Jesus is! (But we don't talk to strangers.) Pastor Pat
Oh me, oh my!
I'm really sorry for the sheep we care for. If we, the shepherds are in so much doubt as to how God tends His sheep, if we are so unsure of His perfect love, if we are still arguing about "us" and "them," if we separate ourselves as "universalists" and whatever the opposite is, if we call witnessing "proselytizing" and simply don't get it, poor, poor sheep!!!
I think I'll just cry on Sunday instead of preaching.
Baffled, VA
I think it's an honor to come to this forum and share ideas, concerns, thoughts and doubts. I'll not be crying Sunday but I'll be giving thanks for all the sisters and brothers in Christ I know who are doing their best to hear the voice of their shepherd......and then attempt to share that with people in their own setting.
another imperfect pastor
The more I think about Sunday's sermon, the more I am sure I will be preaching about the magical moment when sinful, lost people (which is all of us without a voice to guide us, without a Shepherd who will lay down his life for the sheep)hear the voice, recognize it as trustworthy and come into eternal life. Think of Saul becoming Paul, as the voice called him. The people with him heard the VOICE, but saw nobody. The transformation began then. I still struggle to listen more attentively to the Voice. When I preach, I try to be an echo of the Voice. We call what everybody does their Vocation. It's what they are called out to do, and as Luther talked about vocation, you could be a shoemaker, parent, or whatever, to the glory of God. Sometimes, we want to put our fingers in our ears and sing, "La, la, la, I'm not listening, I don't hear a word you say," but I'm sure that God is talking to us all the time. "The Holy Spirit calls, gathers and enlightens the whole Christian Church on earth and keeps it united to Jesus Christ in the one true faith." (Luther's catechism, Article 3, Apostles' Creed) And think of those passages where God's Word accomplishes its purpose, unfailingly, never returning to God empty. The Kingdom's coming. It's already Easter. Pastor Pat, NJ Lutheran
I agree with Another Imperfect Pastor. It would be lovely if all clergy people had all the answers and never had anything but clarity on all issues. But we don't. This DPS forum gives us the opportunity to admit we don't know it all, that we could use some new direction, and that sometimes we are as full of doubt about some things as our parishoners. A seminary degree does not guarantee knowledge and surety, it symbolizes our desire to be open to new and sometimes surprising revelations and to allow our congregations to learn something, too. I don't always agree with what I read, but it makes me think and it makes me take stock of my own beliefs about what the Scripture text is saying. I am very thankful for my DPS family.
By the way, my prayers continue for Tammy in TX and her daughter Kelly and her entire family.
I have enjoyed all your comments. I am a lay chaplain who has the honor of preaching the sermon in a senior care facility.
I too have trouble with us/them as I believe all are saved by the blood of the lamb. I will stress that we hear the shepherd's voice and others haven't heard it yet.
I enjoyed the vision of the long corridor with people joining them from behind closed doors.
I had an experience once when I was maxed out on nitro as I was having heart pain. I went to the valley in Psalm 23, it was so peaceful there. The paramedics kept calling me back but I didn't want to come as I was so at peace. I was sucked back into my body. I still feel the peace and comfort of my experience in the valley if only for a short time.
PHK
I have been reading "Beyond Belief" by Elaine Pagels. SHe is the author/editor of "The Gnostic Gospels" that came out about 20 years ago.
This work focuses on the Gospel of Thomas specifically as it is related to the Gospel of John. She puts the two works in basically the same era. She asserts that the Johanine Community was familiar with the Thomas Community and their message, if not the Gospel of Thomas itself.
SOme of you may recall that the Gospel of Thomas was found in tact with the Nag Hammani writings in 1945. One of the premises of the Thomas Gospel was that Jesus taught his disciples that they were children of God, directly related to the Father, and if they were open to God's empowerment, they could be "like Jesus"--full of power and might and do the things of God that Jesus was doing-- even greater things.
The issue for John is the centrality of Jesus-- the only begotten Son of the Father (excuse the masculine language). For Thomas, Jesus came to show the Way. For John, Jesus was the Way. Thus, John's focus on the "I am" language of Jesus.
Pagel's writings can change slant applied to John. I don't agree with everything she says, and I'm not willing to sacrifice the centrality of Jesus, but she does make me look on the early "heretics" with a bit more kindness. Some of the things they assert, are things that I have come to believe through my studies of the Four-fold Gospels.
West Texas Presbyterian
Cattle are herded from behind. Sheep are led. If they are herded from behind they will make every effort to get behind the shepherd. They want to know where they are going is safe and need to see what happens to the shepherd. No, the shepherd does not trod through the dung. PH in OH
I loved all the "heretics" in the early church. In software engineering, we called that "debugging". Without the people of that trial-and-error process, how would we know that what we have today are truly field-tested?
With the recent reconciliation between the US and the USSR, some scientific exchanges between NASA and the Soviet space agency took place. At one of these exchanges, a Soviet engineer mentioned about a type of rocket's fuel in which the NASA engineers think it's impossible to have. The Soviet side then presented the actual rockets they still have in their storage, to their baffled NASA's counter part.
You see, the approach from the US side was design-oriented. If it's not feasible on paper, it will not be implemented. The Soviet on the other hand, followed a trial-and-error approach. They blew up so many designs in their effort, studied its failure, and refined it to a feasible point.
Similarly, the services of the "heretics" while at the great cost, also strengthen us in the long run. However, even getting such a label would not prevent people from having their robe washed white in the blood of the lamb. I will be looking for Arianius, Tertullian, and the like in heaven and will thank them for having the courage to make us think and refine our understanding of God's revelation...
Incoherent Hope
PH in OH, noting that shepherds lead their flocks, commented, "No, the shepherd does not trod through the dung."
Right. It's the sheepdogs who follow -- nipping at the heels of the sheep. My prof. of Pastoral Theology said that the sheepdog was the best icon/analogy for pastoral ministry. Jesus leads; we follow the sheep nipping their heels.
Blessings, Eric in OH
West Texas Presbyterian and others interested - here is a website to see the 4 Gospels and Thomas side by side.
http://www.utoronto.ca/religion/synopsis/meta-5g.htm
Since the topic of the Gospel of Thomas has come up, I invite all to read the latest Scholarly Smackdown on beliefnet.org. It is a six-part dialogue between Elaine Pagels and Ben Witherington. In the last installment, Witherington raises some important points against recent inclusionary trends of Thomas.
It can be found here:http://beliefnet.org/story/143/story_14376_6.html#ben_040422
I am not an universalist, but I suspect that God might be. My belief is that God uses whatever path we open. That's pretty much God's business. I believe Christ was uniquely God's Child but that Christ's Spirit moves outside the religion of Christianity reaching those who by accident of birth have been found by God through some other path. Unique but not exclusive?
It seems that many treat God like a idiot savant - able to do lots of neat tricks, but not smart enough to engineer a salvation that reaches beyond the cultural religion of Christianity.
I think its possible to reject God, but its not easy.
Its possible that many hear and recognize the Shepherd's voice though their path might not be the Christian religion. It seems Christ was talking about those who were rejecting his teaching more than those who happened to be living out of earshot of the Gospel.
On the other hand, the pressure in our culture to be politically correct is immense. One must use caution not to embrace a belief just so "no one gets hurt or offended." If Jesus died for the sins of humanity, not just the sins of western Europe, then I am sure God has taken their ingorance of the details of the atonement into consideration. If the picture of Jesus leaving the 99 to rescue the one lost sheep is accurate, then perhaps the several billion we refer to as lost got his attention, eh?
Just a thought. I appreciate the freedom to give one's point of view without fear. Its a true gift from all of you.
Stan From Tacoma
bammamma,
Hi, Mystic Christianity, I have that Course now at United seminary...Where you from? Clerically Blonde In west Ohio
Clericaly Blonde in West Ohio I am reading Mystical Christianity by John Sanford on my own. I live in Illinois. I have not had that course to which you refer. I hope it is meaningful.
Shalom
Bammamma
Stan from Tacoma wrote "I am not a universalist, but I suspect God might be" -- THANK YOU! That's a wonderful line, and speaks the truth to me.
~Squeeze
Hello my friends and sooooo sorry I have been out of touch. My daughter is great in the ways that matter one day I may find a way to share some things God has taught me in our journey....
BUT... I am preaching this sunday for the first time in along time and I am excited. I don't ever see scripture in an US vs THEM way. I always read scripture in a "what is God saying to me" way. God's grace is wonderful and mystical and sometimes even frustrating. It is not our job, Pastor or lay person, to determine who is us and who is them. It is our job simply to live As Christ to the world. The hard work is up to the Holy Spirit. A freind once asked me if he was going to Heaven. I told him that I knew with all certainty that I was going to Heaven. I read the Bible and I read that the ONLY way to God is through Christ. But I also told him that I was going to trust that God is far wiser than I am. I told him that I knew that when I went to heaven, it would be just as it was supposed to be. And if God chose to let folks in some other way, I would trust He knows what is best. But I choose to live with the certainty I find in Christ.
SOOOOOOOO... the question I am posing to my congregation this Sunday is "exactly what will it take for you to believe". 10:25 Jesus answered, "I have told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name testify to me;
The disciples were there..they touched him, and yet they still questioned. WE see God's grace every day and yet we let the lousy things in life blind us and make us question. My daughter will not survive her cancer. We will be lucky if she makes it one more year. But that does not mean that God has left her or that God is not hearing our prayers. She is NEVER alone. She is ALWAYS comforted. She worships a lord who not only understands her pain, but suffered it. How can we NOT see God around us?
I will ask the congregation to examine themselves...not worry about everyone else!
Thanks for the continued prayers...God's Grace is everpresent.
Tammy in Texas
Tammy in Texas and Stan in Tacoma, thanks for your posts. It strengthens my thought that when God opens one way, he does not close all other ways. While I have found my purpose in Jesus Christ, others have found it in other places, and if it honors God, it pleases God and God will respond to it with love. My father is the kindest, most Christian man who Never made a profession of faith. He thinks religion is bunk, but he lives by the exact same principles of love and goodness that Christians aspire to. Because he has chosen to live in love rather that profess it, I believe God has accepted him as he is. I believe I'll be seeing my agnostic father in the same heaven I'll be seeing my Church-going, praying, good-hearted, believing mother. They both heard the message to love their neighbor, and they both heeded, but in very different ways. Both belong to God and are claimed by God.
I'm pleased to hear that Kelly continues to be strong and is finding comfort in her faith.
Tammy in Texas and Stan in Tacoma, thanks for your posts. It strengthens my thought that when God opens one way, he does not close all other ways. While I have found my purpose in Jesus Christ, others have found it in other places, and if it honors God, it pleases God and God will respond to it with love. My father is the kindest, most Christian man who Never made a profession of faith. He thinks religion is bunk, but he lives by the exact same principles of love and goodness that Christians aspire to. Because he has chosen to live in love rather that profess it, I believe God has accepted him as he is. I believe I'll be seeing my agnostic father in the same heaven I'll be seeing my Church-going, praying, good-hearted, believing mother. They both heard the message to love their neighbor, and they both heeded, but in very different ways. Both belong to God and are claimed by God.
I'm pleased to hear that Kelly continues to be strong and is finding comfort in her faith.
Tammy in Texas, It was so good to see your post and to know you are back in the pulpit this week. Kelly and you and family are in our prayers. For whatever it is worth I agree with your post. You put it very well. Thanks. laypastor @ Buffalo Wallow. tx.
I'm very bothered about what happened in Iraq recently at the prison that Saddam tortured his own people. Now it appears that some of OUR soldiers continued the abuse... pictures included. What WERE these guys thinking, as if the war wasn't bad enough. I'm trying to preach.... "It's Clear... THIS way!" is my title...
My premise will be along the lines of whoever on this scripture page or the 23rd Psalm about sheep who lead by following the sheep... the image of the shepherd leaving the 99 for the 1 stray is a good analogy I think.
With the soldiers... someone "led" them to places they should not have gone? Temptation? Stupidity? A combination? IT will be hard to preach, but I think we need to mention that "sometimes, SOMETIMES" even the best among us does horrible things...
I don't in any way condone what was done... but I also caught a clip on CNN I think of a Taxi driver who was beaten by some "thugs" while hundreds looked on without helping...
When do WE lead, when should WE follow...
A saying I believe Albert Camus, French author is given credit for this statement about leading and following... I think Christ calls us to do this as well...
Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
~ Albert Camus, French author
Still working things out...
pulpitt in ND
To "Another Imperfect Pastor":
I agree with you. DPS gives us a wonderful opportunity to share thoughts and ideas about God's Word. Please disregard my negative comments. We are all imperfect and learn from each other. I too will rejoice in the Shepherd's love as I preach tomorrow. Have a blessed Sunday.
To Tammy in Texas: Welcome back. Our prayers are with you and Kelly. You and Kelly and your whole family are an inspiration to me!!!
Baffled (at my own imperfections, VA
Pastors,preachers,Lay preachers, and all DPSers, what about going with Paul's statement in Galatians 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ, never the less I live, yet not I, but I live through the Christ within me... I did that by memory and so that might not be exactly quoted right, but it was vitally important to me during my teen years some 50 years ago. I knew God was leading me to learn to hear Christ voice and to allow Christ to lead my heart. The older I get, the more I know that letting christ lead means discovering more unnecessary actions I accidently do. I am no better or worse than all those I see doing evil things, so following Christ must be my major concentration. When I concentrate on Christ, I have less time to use others as scapegoats, pointing out their awful acts to make me better than they. I must follow Christ the good shepherd, and stop trying to be the leader of all the other of Christ's sheep. When I think I am the Good Shepherd, rather than one of the sheep, then I get myself off on a ledge where Jesus has to come and rescue me.
So what is a Christian leader? One who does the will of the One who sent Christ. How do I lead? By doing and being what Christ wants me to be. I am grateful to God for placing me among this group of DPSer sheep.
Shalom
Bammamma
Bammamma....
I love it! I so very much like your definition of a Christian Leader!
TAmmy in Texas
I read the story of an English actor and orator who was honoured with a banquet. During the evening he was requested to give a reading, and he chose Psalm 23. He read it in a way that brought out the beauty of the psalm, with clear enunciation and delicate expression of his art. His friends applauded him. Later in the evening, an aged clergyman was asked to speak. He too quoted Psalm 23. His voice rang with assurance and was vibrant with love. When he concluded, there was no applause, but there was scarcely a dry eye in the room. The actor stepped over to the minister, grasped his hand, and said, "Sir, I know the psalm --but you know the shepherd". As a friend , I would ask you, "How well do we know the Shepherd?"
Canon Ben Burry, Clarksburg, Ontario
I meant to post this here, but accidentally posted in on the psalm discussion. But since I've read and appreciated all your comments, I'll repost--I hope that's not breaking any rules.
revger in sf
This is a late addition, but still may be helpful to those who are very desperate--as I often am.
On Good Friday, I took part in a stations of the cross that wound through the streets of my neighborhood that a local Catholic church puts on every year. As the 75 of us crowded down the main street in the area in which I live, at one point a young man was walking against our tide, and as he passed me, I heard him going "baa, baa, baa" implying we were all just dumb sheep for being followers. Little did he know that his strong rejection of our faith stances that day would actually be something very useful to me just a few weeks later!
revger in SF
It seems to me that the Shepherd-sheep metaphor speaks to the true meaning of the covenant that God has with his people: the strong one cares for those who are weak. It is interesting that Tabitha, Dorcas, means Gazelle, "the affectionate one" and is herself caring for the widows as a shepherd would care for the sheep, and that it is Peter who responds to the suffering of this affectionate one and raises up, in the name of the Good Shepherd, the little lamb who has died. From the Cross (Jesus) to discipleship (Tabitha and Peter) to the glorious Kingdom (the Lamb) God, our Father holds us tenderly in his everlasting covenant that began with Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses.
I am your God and you are my people. I am your Shepherd and you are my sheep.
tom in ga
PS The only problem we must deal with is the issue of inclusion and exclusion. The covenant is offered to all (it is the Father's initiative); those who hear "The Ten Words" "The New Commandment" have identified themselves as sheep. Those who do not hear exclude themselves from God's unconditional grace.
Well, after your many and diverse comments on the text, I have concluded I am no further along in my US and THEM thinking than I was when I started. Since this has been a career-long dilemma for me, I didn't expect it to be resolved this week, but was interested in your thoughts. I got them, and I truly appreciate all of them.
I think I'm going with the "My sheep hear my voice" theme and will speak to this fine group of people about the many ways they have followed where Jesus has called them to go, but he's not done speaking to us yet. He doesn't call after us in order to keep us into some safe penned-in place every minute, but to move along on a journey, with him at the helm. So hold onto your hats, there's still work to be done before this is all over. We have not arrived anywhere because we are believers - the work of following Jesus continues on, so tune up your ears and listen to that still, small voice. It is talking to us, asking us to follow, even today.
Thanks, everyone, for a great week.
KHC
A very very very late thought. Our discussion has lead me to ponder what it means to be One with the Father. Guess that Jesus words that were meant to help us grow in unity actually often divide usl God's blessings to you if you are actually reading this late post! You will need it if you are still searching to hear the voice of our good shepherd! -Scramblin for the savior-
Scamblin,
I always read on Saturday night because the spirit doesn't stop. I often add and change things at the last minute as I am confronted with my own struggle in the journey.
God's peace be with you all, Tammy in texas
Scramblin,
Being one with God means to be in ONE Love, to have ONE Love, to have that Unity of Love for one and all, for those with thom I am unified and with those with whom I am disunited just as God has One Love for his friends and His enemies. Matthew 5:43-48.
So in that one Love, united to that one Love,
I can be united in Love with you even when divided from you: even when divided, I am united: 2 Cor 12:10,
and I can be united in Love when united to you: double unity: Doubly unified: when united, I am also united with Love.
So that in that united Love, we have unity in diversity: we have the unity of Love even when divided or multiplied in any other way: E Pluribus, Unum!,
and in that united Love, we have diversity in unity: all types of unity in the unity of Love: family unity in Love, community unity in Love, city-unity in Love, national unity in Love, unity among nations in Love, international unity in Love: Ex Uno, Pluribi!
As Augustine said:
In essentials, unity in Love. In non-essentials, liberality in Love. In ALL things, Amity/Charity/Love.
Ama-deus