Date: 3/8/2004
Time: 8:13:52 AM
Carolyn Winfrey Gilette wrote a song about this scripture that is quite nice. You can get a copy and a release to use from her at bcgillette@snip.net She is very quick to respond. Nancy- Wi
Date: 3/11/2004
Time: 10:04:06 PM
I think I'll preach about the extravagance of the gift lavished on Jesus. Oh that we might also be lavish in our giving of our gifts to our Savior. Joy in IL
Date: 3/11/2004
Time: 10:23:19 PM
There is a song with a folk song type of sound, really easy to sing called,something like "Said Judas to Mary" It is in the New Century Hymnal and would be an easy one to sing or have two people sing. It is designed to be sung back and forth with women and men or one man and one woman. Joy in IL
Date: 3/20/2004
Time: 7:39:38 AM
I'm responding to all the folks who responded to my query last week ... I'm posting HERE because it's Saturday and I want to make sure you all have a better chance of seeing THIS post.
Thank you, thank you, thank you - for your cogent and insightful advice about the church merger. I love the John 10 quote: perfect for when we get to the point of having joint worship. Of those I can recall off-hand:
KHC - the encouragement of success in a church near you that merged was right on target for my apprehensions. Michelle - I like the twist on the prodigal, though I decided to go with Jn 4, after all. And the one whose name is escaping me right now - with the John 10 quote.
For everyone who offered support, prayers, and un-patented advice, THANK YOU again.
-Sally in GA
Date: 3/20/2004
Time: 9:59:18 AM
Martha served, Lazarus was eating with Jesus, and Mary washed His feet with perfume. This gracious family was embracing Jesus even more after He raised Lazarus from the dead. Overall, it was a picture of relationship with Jesus and of exaltation of Jesus too. (I sometime wonder if we tend to be way too casual, buddy buddy with Jesus; or estrange ourselves from Him too much with our exaltation).
But Judas has his mind on the poor. (John obviously hated the guy and didn't let go of any chance to take shot at him thoughout his gospel). Many of us today also has our mind on the poor, and substitute the poor for Jesus. Instead of seeing the poor as Jesus like Mother Teresa, we see the poor instead of Jesus. Unfortunately, we also have many Judas who serve in Christian Relief Organization today, one who help themselves of what in the purse. Many times, it started not because of selfish greed. Most of the time, we get started by thinking, "this is a waste of resources, it could be use better over here..." then we start manipulating the system to divert funds into the "more important" projects. Then from this self-directing attitude (instead of value god's direction), we took control of where things should go. Eventually, that control corrupted ourselves.
Integrity is hard for us human to walk in (don't think so? Take a look at the pop quiz on "Financial Ethical decision-making in the ministry" at http://www.indwes.edu/Tuesday/ethical.decisions.htm at see... The problem is that even if we think that we are ethical, someone else would be willing to dig up more dirt to throw at us ;-( Someone had said that there are two visible premature exits for pastors: one is sex, the other one is money. May God save us from both.
Back to the scene of washing foot. Judas thought it was a waste! But that exactly what worship is about. Worship is holy waste. For we should not manipulate worship for fellowship, patriotic, or evangelism effects. Many saints walking in the ordinary life today among us, and onlookers would sneer, "What a waste (of talents, of life, etc.)" Are we call to be a waste culture? After all, if our Master wasted His life on the cross for us, perhaps we should start wasting our life in following Him. (Truly, what would God gain out of this redemptive transaction?) For once, we need to learn to give up our utilitarian mind set (always want to get something out, to see some result), and contemplate the holy waste aspect of God.
Yes God (sigh) I was supposed to use the subjective "I" instead of "we". For it is me you need to deal with. I am lousy in financial management, I need to get better so that it will not be the cause of downfall down the road. I need to learn to worship you more in wasting my life for you.
Boy, I am sure sound melancholy today.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 3/21/2004
Time: 8:31:09 AM
April 19th is both Holocaust Remembrance Day and our celebration of Earth Day, and the lectionary textx for the week don't seem appropriate. Does anybody have ideas on better texts to use, or on how to work within the lectionary for that week?
Thanks.
California Preachin'
Date: 3/21/2004
Time: 2:23:10 PM
Coho states the poor opinion John had of Judas. I agree. The other Gospels do not pin this just on Judas, but on all the disciples -- the whining about the cost of the perfume "wasted" on Jesus was a shared mumble.
Also, Coho talks about wasted lives, etc. This is just another example of God's upside down economy. What seems wonderful to us is dust to God; what seems trash to us is potential for glory in God's mind.
KHC
Date: 3/21/2004
Time: 2:52:55 PM
I understand that anointing was a priestly function. Not one ususally done by a woman. Incidently, I obtained the fragrance and it is a very musky oder. I was going to open it during the service but I believe that it would be too strong. I may focus on the relationship of the women in the passage, although after reading the DeVinci Code book I will have to be a bit careful! Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/21/2004
Time: 3:01:19 PM
I do not want to change the subject of this discussion, but I am very interested in hearing the opinion of United Methodists and others on the verdict in the Karen Dammann Trial in Washington State this past week. I Invite you to go to the DISCUSSION section of the web site and reply to my message UMC TRIAL IN WASHINGTON.
Nebraska Preacher Dude
Date: 3/21/2004
Time: 3:03:12 PM
Having just returned from the what is often seen as "waste", the desert. I wonder if waste is not Judas term rather than Christ's. The aroma filled the room, the act is priestly, the reverence is on the knees. Perhaps the "waste" was in the want of those things that were of culture. I too could simplify my life. In the desert nothing is wasted, nor is it in the places that seem to have abundance.. I believe that worship is a complex mix of all of the things that you mentioned, evangelism. When I was in Cuba, the music was loud, very loud, we sang to God but the songs poured out into the street sending and evangelistic call. Sorry for this goofy unorganized post but then again, it is Sunday afternoon. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/21/2004
Time: 3:05:36 PM
Having just returned from the what is often seen as "waste", the desert. I wonder if waste is not Judas term rather than Christ's. The aroma filled the room, the act is priestly, the reverence is on the knees. Perhaps the "waste" was in the want of those things that were of culture. I too could simplify my life. In the desert nothing is wasted, nor is it in the places that seem to have abundance..
I believe that worship is a complex mix of all of the things that you mentioned, starting with praise and thanksgiving, but including teaching, outreach,evangelism to name a few. When I was in Cuba, the music was loud, very loud, we sang to God but the songs poured out into the street sending and evangelistic call. Sorry for this goofy unorganized post but then again, it is Sunday afternoon. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 4:49:11 AM
Sally in GA- Three years ago, last time these readings came up, I was in the midst of an amalgamation. These readings made for a wonderful comment on the new thing God was doing in our amalgamated congregation. And if my current parish was just a few weeks futher along in our 'visioning' I could use those ideas again. But, alas. If you're interested, I can email you the text. Let me know. Parish.of.belmont"at"sympatico.ca
nay-oh-mee
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 4:57:04 AM
Hmm- toot my own horn much? What I meant to say was that the READINGS were a timely comment on things happening in my congregation- and my reflection on them was a flawed and weak attempt to make that as clear to the congregation as it was to me... But we all do what we can.
Nay-oh-mee
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 5:50:15 AM
i think i will write about how Mary appreciated Jesus while he was alive, and how we should all appreciate one another whilst we can, and then link that in to how we appreciate the Lord by serving him in the here and now.
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 6:14:51 AM
Anonymous poster, I couldn't agree more with your comment about appreciating people while we still have them, serving Jesus now. One of my gripes with the current trend in religion is that all we care about is salvation and what comes after this life. My personal hobbyhorse is that we are here now to serve now, to love Jesus because he's Jesus, not because of where we want to get for eternity. I don't like the carrot-on-a-stick theology that seems so prevalent today. This, by the way, is the main (but only one of many) reasons I despise the Praise Songs of the modern day. There's hardly a hint of anything beyond "God 'n Me, I'm saved, I'm happy" in them.
We all need to be shown on occasion that we are loved just for who we are. The disciples, to this point, had done little to honor Jesus, although they probably gave pretty good lip service about their devotion. Mary of Bethany, on the other hand, stepped up and SHOWED Jesus her devotion in the only way an honorable woman of that day could.
Isn't it interesting that some have chosen to see that this is Mary Magdalene? Matthew and Mark don't give any name at all, and John pretty much zeroes in on Mary of Bethany. I wonder how Mary M. ever got placed into the story? Is it a tradition I don't know about? Just wondering.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 7:04:32 AM
Judas misunderstands Mary's extravagant act of anointing Jesus' feet with a costly perfume. Jesus recognizes the true significance of her beautiful expression of love and commitment as an anticipation of his burial.
Having not yet rid ourselves of the sharp stench of Lazarus's death (the background of today's gospel), we now find ourselves sitting in his home filled with the "fragrance of the perfume" of Christ's upcoming death.
Anticipation is written all over the texts for this day; something is about to happen, which will reorder all previously known priorities. "I am about to do a new thing...do you perceive it?" says Isaiah. Can't you feel it? It's almost palpable!
"You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me," anticipates Jesus. Judas, as reported by John, "is about to betray him."
Our first reading and psalm are rife with future tense: "I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert. The wild animals will honor me." "Those who sowed with tears will reap with songs of joy. Those who go out weeping...will come again with joy."
Our culture does not condition us to savor anticipation. Our gift has been, rather, to bring about immediate success, to seek results. We're good at that! Yet Paul, who by his own account has been an overachiever of the right bloodline, turns these priorities on their head. "Yet whatever gains I have, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ."
Paul, too, has begun to find his strength in anticipation. Having found "surpassing value" in the knowledge of Christ Jesus his Lord, he now "presses on" and "strains forward" to what lies ahead. We, in the assembly, are called to join him in anticipating—in pressing on "toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus."
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 7:04:59 AM
The author of John's gospel contrasts two very different responses to Jesus by his followers. Judas is portrayed as a self-centred, bitter thief. In this story, he sees only monetary value. What's more, he is either unwilling or unable to appreciate the significance of the moment. This gospel predicts that there will be many who see bu not understand (Jn 1.11, 6.36, 9.39). In a heavily patriarchal culture, Mary is a most unlikely candidate as a model of true discipleship. But that is how she is portrayed. Mary understands who Jesus is and the significance of what is happening to him. Mary understands, believes, and acts.
Mary's act is extravagant and beautiful. "A pound of nard" is no bottle of cheap scent from a discount shop, but a luxury item worth nearly a year's average wage, according to Judas. The act is also beautiful in the sensuality and intimacy of the scene John portrays: the table of food, the company of friends, the effusion of scent throughout the room, and the locks of Mary's hair caressing Jesus' feet.
Mary gave herself to what she knows and believes about Jesus and also to what she has experienced in his presence. It was Jesus who raised her brother Lazarus from the dead. Like John the Baptizer at the opening of this gospel, Mary sees and testifies in her act of love that Jesus is "the chosen one" (Jn 1.34). Mary ministers to Jesus in a way that mirrors the ways he has ministered to her and her loved ones, but also to what he will do for all in his extravagant, self-giving death and resurrection.
How might we respond to the extravagant, self-giving love of Jesus? In what ways today might we minister to Jesus? In what ways may our actions fill the air, fill the world, with the fragrance of God's love?
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 7:51:08 AM
Just some Monday musings.... Isn't Judas' question a good one for disciples? Why WASN'T the perfume sold and used for the poor? He's got it, that we should give to the poor (one of Jesus' main messages), but the only thing he doesn't get is the death of Jesus. The waste is only acceptable if it is for a burial, and Judas hasn't made the leap yet although he will be the one to make it happen (not theologically speaking, of course).
Excuse my Monday brain but just wanted to get some things rolling. Peace, Beth in GA
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 8:11:49 AM
Joy in IL Thank you for the suggestion of "Said Judas to Mary" I just played through it and love it. My husband and I will be singing it Sunday morning. The last two verses are my favorites. Bonnie in MO
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 8:16:27 AM
I am truely interested in "anointing" and all that implies. I have visited some sites on the web. I am interested in how you all understand being anointed. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 8:23:35 AM
Hooser, I once wrote on a bulletin, that I felt Christian's were some of the most selfish people in the world, because they were so focused on what "they get". Meaning eternal life. Just as you described the carrot on the stick... Maybe that is the humanity in us. We are suppose to love God and want to live with him forever. Mostly I hear I want to see my mother, brother, sister etc. Valid yes! but... what about the heavenly Ones. Sort of off course here. But maybe not. It does say something about putting family before attending worship. Family Christian events are different than family reunions are they not? sorry to ramble here. Extravagance in our culture is often thought of as things or time. I would like to see people put extravagant effort into coming to worship. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 9:11:45 AM
Some more observations: 300 denarii is about $25,000 USD today (A year's salary per NIV, Wow! What a waste for sure!)
John portrayed Mary's action without tears or kissing his feet as other author. Also, her action made her famous enough that in the previous chapter 11:2, Mary was described as the person who did this to Jesus.
to Nancy, WI on "anointed Jesus": the word here is "aleipho", the "the mundane and common word for anoint, pour on, smear oil or ointment on head or body, for health, healing, or even embalming." This is not "chrio", the "the sacred and religious word for anointing" (which usually done with oil and not perfume). I don't know if this help or not.
Coho, Midway City
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 9:53:30 AM
I'm thinking about doing something focusing on the extravagance here. The congregation where I serve complains about spending too much money even on communion wine since we switched to plastic cups that hold more than the older glasses. Not to mention the fact that, whenever we want to do ministry that means spending money, it's a big argument.
Mary's extravagance in worship is important, not only with the financial aspect of it. Very few Pennsylvania Lutherans are expressive about their faith, in OR out of worship. I'd love to find a way to motivate them to evangelistic extravagance!
PB in PA
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 10:33:11 AM
KyHoosierCat, Thank you for your comments on "carrot on a stick" theology. I thought you might find this helpful in your musings... the same sentiment appears in a hymn in the UMC Hymnal. If I think of it I'll send it. With regard to this text, I do wonder why Jesus would not have said, "your tears are more cherished an ointment, sell the nard and cry for others as well" Or something like that... enjoy.
I carry a torch in one hand And a bucket of water in the other: With these things I am going to set fire to Heaven And put out the flames of Hell So that no one worships God for fear of Hell or greed of Heaven.
Rabia (Eighth century Sufi mystic poet)
Cabindweller
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 11:00:08 AM
Cabindweller,
Thanks! I love it! While I'm not UM, I do own several editions of the UM Hymnbooks. Can't find that particular hymn, but it sounds like a great one to me!!
KHC
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 11:25:36 AM
Cabinweller: Can't find the hymn in UMC. What is the first line or title. Thanks Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 1:06:24 PM
Joy in IL Thanks for the hymn suggestion. It's great and I plan to use it. By any chance are you a CTS grad? REVJAW
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 1:39:49 PM
Odd bits that I hope to weave together somehow . . .
Nard as an ointment was used for perfume, beauty treatments, and calming nerves
Judas wanted to sell the nard for 300 denarius (a year's wages) but settled(?) for selling out Jesus for 30 pieces of silver (about 5 months' wages)
The party is to thank Jesus for bringing Lazarus back to life. In the verses that follow in this chapter, there are the words "he who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it unto eternal life." While John has Jesus talking about a grain of wheat falling into the earth, the synoptics instead have Jesus say "for what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? or what can a man give in return for his life?"
We always have the poor, and people who die always stay dead -- yet Lazarus didn't stay dead, because the "always" excuse has been broken. What other "always" excuses do we need to break in order to be faithful?
OLAS
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 2:18:12 PM
This is such a sensual encounter of Mary with Jesus, anointing his feet and then wiping them with her hair as though she wishe to participate in the extravagant self-donation, of union between God and man. There is something so very life giving, and Judas comes across so sterile, so lifeless in his response to the generosity of faith.
tom in ga
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 5:00:09 PM
(1 Contrast the paradox of Jesus raising his friend from death in Chapter 11 with this "anointing" of his feet in preparation for walking the road to the Passover, as the Lamb of God, and his death on the cross.
(2) word study of "anointing", involving the "poverty" King becoming the "King of Kings", who is crowned with a "crown of thorns". This word study also involves the word "messiah" ("Christ").
(3) Paul Tillich's reflections of "Holy Waste", and the aesthetic (ecstasy) vs the pragmatic, practical, and reason, has a great deal to offer this post-modern age with "worship wars", and personal holiness, vs the practics of social holiness (caring for the poor, etc.).
(4) The feet that walk the Glory Road of total ecstasy of the heart commitment (in ultimate concern), in spite of regard for self (as in self-abandonment) for the sake of the Covenant, bring to mind the early martyrs, to Cranmer, Ridley,and ?, who were England's "Candles in the Wind", to the contemporary martyrs of modern times such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Luther King, Jr., who abandoned self-concern for the sake of the Kingdom of God.
(5) The ecstasy of such heart-felt ultimate commitment may also be illustrated in tackling, blocking, and running a football with self-abandonment for the sake of the team. I believe Coach Paul Bear Bryant expected this kind of aesthetic, heart-felt, commitment in how his players were called to play with 150% of their being, as they tackled, blocked, and ran with the football, in a team effort...in abandonment of self-interest and/or concern for their body.
(6) The ecstasy with which Mary entered into "Holy Waste", revealed she heard and understood the road Jesus had to walk, as the Paschal Lamb self-sacrificed himself in total, gift-giving love, and surrender upon the cross.
(7) 23 Psalm has both "walk through the valley of the shadow of death" and "anointing" in it.
PaideiaSCO reflections on the mt top in north GA
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 5:24:40 PM
I have been mulling something, how did Martha, Lazarus and Mary serve Jesus? Martha served and complained, Lazarus just ate and Mary worshiped him, as we have already said, extravagantly. Blessings, Toni
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 5:36:10 PM
Nay-oh-mee:
Yes, I'd love to read it!
Revsallyo@aol.com
Sally in GA
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 5:54:12 PM
v. 6 - we learn that Judas is a thief and he was accustomed to skimming off the common purse.
Hmmm... before tapping into my judgmental side and pointing fingers, I must first look at where it is that I, myself, try to skim off the community, and displace my feelings of guilt onto some theoretical ministry, such as "the poor" (rather vaguely defined, when you think of it - which poor, where, and how would we give money) When really it's myself I wish to feed.
The theology of preservation over the theology of abundance. Worry over staying financially viable, worry over the flat-out refusal of congregants to do anything to reach out to the community. Is my desire for new souls to Christ REALLY care for their souls, or is it a product of feeling the pressures of a dying church long in what I call "survival mode?" An unhealthy church declines, or at the very least stays static. Healthy churches increase.
Once in awhile we've got to spend a year's salary to lavish on Christ - and wipe his feet with our hair. (recall that hair, in those days, was a woman's glory). Maybe NOW is the time to spend every last cent we have on Christ.
Sally in GA
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 6:27:08 PM
What we see here are how people relate to Jesus. We have Martha, who is an example of those faithful workers in the church. We have Lazarus who sits at the table and eats with Jesus. How many of us are in denominations who sit and eat with Jesus on a weekly basis? Then we have Mary, who worships Jesus in her own way. We also have the Judases in our congregations who are always whining and complaining about spending money. Is this scene not a picture of the typical church? Who are we in this picture? We could invite members of the congregation to think about where they fit in/ who they relate to. PH in OH
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 6:43:01 PM
KHC and Nancy-Wi,
I found the hymn... it's #470 My God, I love thee. The first, third and fourth are the most directly related. 1) My God, I love thee, not because I hope for heaven thereby, nor yet because, if I love not, I must forever die... 3) Then why, O blessed Jesus Christ, should I not love thee well? Not for the sake of winning heaven, nor of escaping hell. 4)Not with the hope of gaining aught, not seeking a reward, but as thyself hast loved me, O everlasting Lord.
Very beautiful, very pure. A good baseline for Lent. I wish I could love without alterior motives... Maybe that's what Mary did? Or maybe her alterior motives matched Jesus' so they were OK?
Cabindweller
Date: 3/22/2004
Time: 8:50:02 PM
Hmmm. "Ulterior Motives" I think I could work with this!
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 4:19:31 AM
Here is a great resource. This web site has thousands of plays, monologues, and dialogs based on scripture. I used one for the prodigal son last Sunday and it was received quite well.
www.thewestcoast.net/bobsnook.com
PH in OH
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 5:28:24 AM
KHC Here is an opener for your them of what is wonderful to us is dust to God. A man who had lived a particularly good life was supposedly given the opportunity to take something with him from this life to the next. He carefull packed a suitcase with gold bars. When he got to, heaven God inspected the luggage. Upon seeing the gold bars he said,"So, you brought pavement." jrbnrnc
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 5:31:08 AM
i am struck by the similarity of this reading and last Sunday. Now, Mary is the prodigal who wastes her substance on a "dead man"; and Judas is th elder brother hoarding the money, suggesting (prudently) that it be used for the poor - after all they will still be with us after Jesus is dead and gone!!!
tom in ga
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 5:48:25 AM
jrbnrnc, thanks for the laugh. Appreciated it.
Cabindweller, thanks for the Hymn number. It's even a familiar tune! Wow! Finally there is proof that I'm not the only one with this idea of loving Jesus just because he's Jesus and not putting our emphasis on what we get out of it in the end. Or worrying about what we'll end up with in the end.
Appreciate all of you!
KHC
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 6:31:21 AM
Feet are depicted in the Scriptures as powerful things. Enemies are put under foot, for example. Anointing had many uses in the OT, including the belief that anointing brought some kind of power to the anointee, and the Spirit of God would lead him (usually male, I guess) to do whatever he was called to do. In the NT, people would fall at Jesus' feet, not just as a formal greeting, but as a recognition of his enormous power and dignity.
Mary, recognizing something remarkable in her friend, honored him by falling at his feet with an anointing of oil, sending him on his way to do the work he was called to do. Did she know what was to come? Probably not, but she knew she loved this Jesus who had unmistakable compassion and power enough to give her brother back to her.
She had towels in the house, or a dress hem she could have used to dry his feet, but they were not what she wanted to use. She gave Jesus everything she had to give that was important to her - her home, her hospitality, her devotion, her expensive perfume (and thus an entire year's salary -and we think tithing is tough!), her hands, right down to the hair on her head. She used her "crowning glory" to wipe the powerful feet of the one who would first wear a mocking crown, but would then receive his Crown of Glory.
KHC
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 6:35:09 AM
Oops. Maybe I should carefully read what's already been posted before I try. Much has already been said. Sorry.
KHC
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 8:18:50 AM
jrbnrnc - thanks for reminding me of the pavement joke! maybe those things we deem to be important,ie. money and stuff, aren't nearly as important to God as the intangibles - compassion...
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 8:19:32 AM
tom in ga - interesting analogy to the prodigal! revjaw
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 8:20:10 AM
Does anyone else see this as being about getting our priorities straight? revjaw
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 8:52:11 AM
There is one possible theme:
Faith (Mary) Verses Prudence (Judas)
So many parishes prudently go about the business of the church - seeking to balance the bottom line, always careful. Faith is just what it is spontanious (?), risky, free, moved by the heart and not by the head.
We Christians are so rational and brainy, that the heart gets lost often. Mary has fallen in love with Jesus, she has physical contact with him, wiping his feet with her hair, breathing in the rich sweet scent of the perfume, touching him, loving him, and we focus on the rational, important stuff, like money!
tom in ga
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 8:58:22 AM
Thanks for the hymn number. I am in the extravant focus so far. what is extravant in culture now? The more I think about it the more I believe it is time. We try to save it, we try to fit more things into any given period of it. On Sunday morning, "its time" that seems to keep people from worship... People say well that is my time to sleep late, or I just spent and hour here teaching sunday school so I gave God my hour. This is the only time my children can visit me so I have to stay home to visit with them. Or My visitor can only be here on Sunday and they don't go to church, so to see more of them I must stay home. Just a bit of musing. If we extravagantly worship, is it not using the very thing that is the most expensive for us? I am always amazed at the devotion some people have for their service club. In fact, to be honest, sometimes it ticks me off! I am a Rotarian and perfect attendence is stressed. You can make up at another club. If you miss, and I will have to look this up, three or four meeting in a row or your attendence drops below 50% You can be and in some clubs kicked out. food for thought. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 9:02:21 AM
I'm sure some have said this in other ways already, but the use of this scripture bothers me. I don't think that Christians need any more incouragement to leave behind "the poor" in favor of lavishing attention on their "sprituality" or their worship expreience or their sanctuaries.
What Jesus says to Judas strikes me as being completely contrary to his entire ministry. The pharisees were religious people who sepnt all their effort on worship and ignored the people starving around their temple.
I was wondering, could Jesus be defending the pure intention of Mary's action and accusing Judas's ill intented accusation??
Martin Luther King Jr. wrote that for a Christian "the means must be as pure as the ends" and I think Mark Twain (?) said that "there is nothing more evil than doing the right thing for the wrong reasons." Just a thought. jw in tx
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 9:39:42 AM
A qoute that comes (I Think) from Robert Farrar Capon;
"If we could be saved by bookkeeping,then we would have been saved by Moses and not Jesus"
I understand that to mean that we are not saved by fulfilling the requiremeents of the law, but by grace. Mary gets this and loves and worships extravangantly.
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 9:57:42 AM
Hey everyone! This scripture and the Isaiah companion are still about waste; streams in the desert, nard perfume used "incorrectly."
We have to be careful here. I agree with jw in tx that we risk the danger of focussing on the moment, on the emotional, the extravagent...as long as it is focussing on us. Marva Dawn in her wonderful book, "A Royal 'Waste' of Time" talks about worship being on the wrong focus. We see it as a time for us, for entertainment, to attract people to God. She says, page 11, "Of course, people iwll be attracted when we worship well, but if we make such appeal the focus of worship, then God will not longer be."
When we make "how" something is wasted as the focus, then we miss what is happening here. God is doing something new (the exiles sent to a new place, Jesus to take on the sins of the world). It takes some "wasteful" behavior. It has to, to expand the reach and to reach out.
We have to make the focus on what God is doing, even with such people as us, with what we have and what we can give. God's bounty will make up for our shortcomings (God can outspend anyone with time, talent and treasure).
So don't get trapped in Judas' argument. That argument that says, I know what is best for the time talent or treasure that we have. You have heard the opposite arguments:
We will always have the poor, and they aren't doing anything for themselves but looking for a hand-out, so let's put air conditioning in the sanctuary for those three really uncomfortable weeks. OR
If we just didn't "waste" our money on sanctuaries - demoninatinal meetings, etc., we would have more money for the "real" work of the church.
When the we haven't been wasting our time with God to give focus and intent for the new things happening, the new offering opportunities that are already present, and dried up for the lack.
Doug in Erie
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 10:44:27 AM
I am intrigued by the wording of verse 8. It says "You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me" instead of "You WILL always have the poor with you, but you WILL not always have me." I wonder if Jesus is trying to tell Judas that he has had the opportunity to spend money on the poor all this time, but has not kept the mission and image of Jesus with him when he was not in Jesus' presence? Saying "You do not always have me" means something different to me than "You WILL not always have me." It indicates that Judas forgets all about Jesus when he is not around. And the poor -- they are and were there always and everywhere, yet this has not been of utmost importance to Judas until now -- until someone other than he is spending money on something other than what Jesus has suggested. He wasn't thinking of the poor at that moment, nor was he thinking of the poor when he skimmed a bit off the top of the treasury previously. Judas more likely desires the nard to be sold so that the church treasury is large enough to rationalize pocketing a little for his services. I think we read that last verse incorrectly. Scholars? Please weigh in on the tense for me. Pastor Janel in ND
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 11:28:53 AM
I too will approach th prodigal theme; only, I think Martha is the older sibling. I think Judas might be the far country where only those who are expected are invited. The theme is @ those who know the price of everything, and the value of nothing. MrBill in MI
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 11:40:43 AM
Pastor Janel...
exete, you possess, literally or figuratively, present active indicative.
For you always have poor WITH you, you do not always have me. I think, as I look at this now, the big difference is the word "with." (of course, it would be understood as partof the second phrase as a compound sentence?) If that is the case, then it is a pure statement of current status and future status. The poor and Jesus are with him, now. But Jesus will not always be with him. Where is your focus?, Jesus may be saying. Be with me, now.
Doug in Erie
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 12:45:33 PM
Date: 3/22/2004 Time: 5:58:03 AM
Comments I Hadn't checked in this month. I have been doing a series called "At the foot of the Cross-through the peoples eyes" I Began with the Thieves,mob,passers by, pharissees,scribes; Secondly, the Roman Soldiers casting lots; This Sunday, The Women-got into Diakoneo with that; Next Sunday, "A Centurian's Story" and Palm Sunday, Joseph's Gift,the Tomb; my mom is coming to visit for Easter, "A tale of Two Marys'" then- ending at the empty tomb...
Seminary is good. HARD! Paul's Prison Epistle's are good. I cant wait for Dr Park's Course Mystic Christians.
I hope everyone has been having a good month. God Bless you all
-clerically Blonde in West Ohio, Wilmington District. (see you at Conference if your from here, My mom is missing her's as lay delegate to visit mine...WV Conference)
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 1:42:12 PM
Doug in Erie, I'm not sure where my focus is -- that's a darn good question!!! :) I just found that last verse so different when I read it this time. I always take that as God trying to tell me something about it, but I can't always figure out what that something might be. I'll have to keep working on that one. Pastor Janel in ND
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 1:42:17 PM
Thought that perhaps these quotes from H.A. William's "The True Wilderness" might be helpful in preparation:
"We all have experience of two types of feeling. There is the feeling which unites us to our world and makes us rejoice in it - an experience of love, of acceptance, of communion. And there is the other kind of feeling which separates us from our world and makes us hate it - an experience of fear, exile, discord.
The joy which one finds in his work and which transforms the tears and sweat of it into happiness and delight - that joy is God.
The sense of belonging to the natural world, the exhilarating certainty that all things are ours whether things in heaven or things on the earth - that sense of belonging is God. The superabundance which leads us naturally and inevitably to give, not as a matter of duty nor in a spirit of patronage, but because we cannot forbear - that superabundance is God. The compelling conviction that in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, in spite of all the suffering we may have to witness or undergo, the universe is on our side, and works not for our destruction but for our fulfillment - that compelling conviction is God.
In experiences of this sort, which occur to all of us whether or not we ar technically religious, it is as though we were receiving something, as though we were reaching forth to embrace a richness greater than ourselves. It is in such receiving that we are most alive, most ourselves, most capable of great achievement and high endeavor.
Saint Augustine said that Christ’s command to love God is not obeyed it it is obeyed as a command."
tom in ga
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 2:29:47 PM
I am often amazed at how well the scriptural texts for the Sundays in the lectionary compliment each other. The Isaiah text is talking to Israel in exile - an exile they have perhaps even grown accustomed to and accepted. And God tells them, "I'm going to bring you out of exile to the promised land". And they might think - "what on earth for? Why do we have to go through all that again - we'll probably just find ourselves in exile once again." But God says to them - "Hold on, I'm doing a new thing - we're not just going through the same old same old. I've got a purpose and a vision - all things will become new again and all of creation is going to join in praise of me."
How does this relate to this text? In all kinds of ways. Lazarus' death and Jesus' death did/will not result in the same old same old - but of new possibility. That being lavish and extravagant are just as much about the kingdom of God as being prudent and wise. That a woman will display the kind of outpouring of extravagant love as what Jesus will do and what he will expect the disciples to do for others.
Even in the same old routines God calls us to do again and again, sometimes we encounter something new - that God works newly even in the predictable.
Tigger in MN
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 2:30:42 PM
I am often amazed at how well the scriptural texts for the Sundays in the lectionary compliment each other. The Isaiah text is talking to Israel in exile - an exile they have perhaps even grown accustomed to and accepted. And God tells them, "I'm going to bring you out of exile to the promised land". And they might think - "what on earth for? Why do we have to go through all that again - we'll probably just find ourselves in exile once again." But God says to them - "Hold on, I'm doing a new thing - we're not just going through the same old same old. I've got a purpose and a vision - all things will become new again and all of creation is going to join in praise of me."
How does this relate to this text? In all kinds of ways. Lazarus' death and Jesus' death did/will not result in the same old same old - but of new possibility. That being lavish and extravagant are just as much about the kingdom of God as being prudent and wise. That a woman will display the kind of outpouring of extravagant love as what Jesus will do and what he will expect the disciples to do for others.
Even in the same old routines God calls us to do again and again, sometimes we encounter something new - that God works newly even in the predictable.
Tigger in MN
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 3:42:26 PM
Pastor Janel in ND,
When I was reading your (first) post this week, I thought it would be great if we could point out that Judas was distancing himself from Jesus when he acted against Jesus' teaching, i.e., you don't always have me. It would add an interesting twist, but the scholarly reply, pointing out the future tense, seems to make that invalid. Fiddlesticks.
On another note, I've always read verse 7 as Mary's anticipation of Jesus' burial. Today, something else occurred to me...
Mary bought the nard so that she might keep it for the day of Jesus' burial. However, Jesus just raised Lazarus from the dead. Is it possible that Mary sees the miraculous restoration of life through Jesus, and decides she does not need to keep the nard, because she thinks Jesus won't have to be buried, because he has power over life and death? Is it possible that she uses it now (in thanksgiving for raising Lazarus?) because she doesn't think she will need it for his burial? Also, she uses the whole pound (two cups if similar in weight to water), is it because she is confident she will never need it for its previously intended purpose?
I don't know, but it's a thought.
Michelle
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 5:24:41 PM
Michelle,
That's an interesting option you see there in v.7 "Jesus said, 'Leave her alone. She bought it so that she might keep it for the day of my burial..." I always see it figuratively since it's so hard to imagine that anyone would actually 'got it' when it come to Jesus' role. No wonder the gnostic tradition believed that only Mary (Magdalene, to be more exact) were the true disciple of Jesus (and I haven't even read Da Vinci Code yet...)
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 5:28:22 PM
Devinci Code is an interesting read. I am sure someone in your congregations will be asking about it. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 8:33:15 PM
I have benefited from everyone's reflections to date. Thank you! Thought I should participate and give back ... hopefully without being redundant. Here are a few mere musings.
Jesus was clearly a marked man at this point in John and I think it is pretty impressive that Mary et al. are willing to associate with Him. I am more impressed with Mary going even beyond merely associating but identifying herself so definitively with Jesus via the fragrance of the perfume/oil. Am I willing to let my worship and the object of my worship be my identity? And what does that look like through out the week? Am I willing to be marked by my worship?
I wonder if Mary thought her act of worship was extravagant? I imagine she simply thought it was a natural outpouring in response to what Jesus was to her. If we seek to be extravagant in our worship, is there an element of works righteousness involved?
It seems to me there is a time to be extravagant in our worship and a time to be extravagant in our dealings with those less fortunate. Knowing when and in what way to be extravagant must come by way of the Spirit.
Musings from Canada
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 10:31:19 PM
The thing in both this and the epistle is the love that these folks have for Jesus, because of what he's done for them. Mary got her brother back because of him. Paul found a truth that turned the world upside down and turned hate into love. If it's going to be distinct from the Jesus-is-my-boyfriend variety, real praise and adoration must be rooted in something that matters, a word one has heard or forgiveness received. Judas maybe hadn't let himself be touched like that.
I found an excerpt of Oscar Wilde's "The Ballad of Reading Gaol," in "Bread and Wine: Readings for Lent and Easter," p. 3. It is a better fit with other versions of the nard story, and it takes a guilt tack, but the broken heart is still working on me:
"...And thus we rust Life's iron chain Degraded and alone: And some men curse, and some men weep, And some men make no moan: But God's eternal Laws are kind And break the heart of stone.
And every human heart that breaks, In prison-cell or yard, Is as that broken box that gave Its treasure to the Lord, And filled the unclean leper's house With the scent of costliest nard.
Ah! happy those whose hearts can break And peace of pardon win! How else may man make straight his plan And cleanse his soul from Sin? How else but through a broken heart May Lord Christ enter in?"
Laura in TX
Date: 3/23/2004
Time: 10:34:13 PM
Henri Nouwen writes beautifully about the Prodigal Son. He says that we are called to not just become aware of having both the two children within us, and come home to the graciousness of "the father." But, being home, we are to more and more become like the compassionate, gracious "father." Perhaps Mary became more and more like the "father" of the parable in her extravagant and generous love. She spent time listening to Jesus - maybe a form of prayer. She was "home." She was graced.
Also, I think we need to be very careful that we do not equate the extravagance that was spent on Jesus, then, with the extravagance that we could spend on the church, today. It would be self-serving for churches to equate themselves with Jesus.
Brent in Pincher
Date: 3/24/2004
Time: 4:45:55 AM
Mary "got it"! She knew Jesus had the power over death, but yet she prepared him for burial. Judas did not "get it", though he was with Jesus in human form regularly. Did his own agenda interfere with God's agenda?
Roger in Pa.
Date: 3/24/2004
Time: 8:16:44 AM
Musings from Canada asks,
Am I willing to let my worship and the object of my worship be my identity? And what does that look like through out the week? Am I willing to be marked by my worship?
What we see going on with Mary and Jesus is a very personal encounter, though publically enacted. It is a moment of contemplative prayer, the eros reaching toward completion in her savior, the moment of divine union that comes only in the secret place of the heart, it is a moment when giving becomes receiving, and there is a sense of one-ness or total peace. Over time this experience will change our lives.
In the Episcopal Church, we do things always so decently and in order that we forget about the need of the soul to fly to God. Beside, speaking directly to our Lord's coming passion, death, and burial, this reading places prayer prior to good works (of any kind) suggesting that it is only out of the fullness of God that we can do anything. It reminds me of Maundy Thursday, when we must receive before we can give, for if we remain empty there will be nothing to offer.
tom in ga
Date: 3/24/2004
Time: 8:59:52 AM
I have not submitted anything for quite a long time. To all who contributed about Worship...Thanks! What does it really mean to worship? Is that a once a week thing? Is that a life style of extravagantly giving praise to the Lord? Is that a life style in which our daily choices are based on an extravagant out pouring of love? Just some questions. LP in CO
Date: 3/24/2004
Time: 11:15:43 AM
Isn't it interesting that the ONLY one who is critical of Mary's extravagance is Judas--the one who ultimately betrays Jesus by handing him over to the Roman authorities? Wonder what that says about those Christians who criticize extravagance in worship!
Date: 3/24/2004
Time: 11:43:16 AM
To the anonymous poster speaking of Judas being the only one who protests - according to John, anyway. John had no love for Judas. The other gospel accounts (Matt and Mk) have ALL the disciples grumbling about the extravagance and how the money could have been used.
I realize the lection is in John this time, and not a compilation of all the accounts, but I felt the need to point that out. Judas gets a really bad rap in John.
Anonymous
Date: 3/24/2004
Time: 12:48:46 PM
I'm willing to defend the legitimacy of Judas' question (even if the gospel writer is willing to smear his motives and character). I think Jesus' response points to a polarity in the life of the church: BOTH beauty in worship AND caring for the poor are important. If you tilt to one side or the other, somehow your faith life is off balance. If you pour all your money into making worship a rich and beautiful experience, and neglect the poor, you're doing it wrong. Ditto if you become a sterile social agency.
I also thought about what happened with the perfume; probably Mary got most of her gift back, stuck in her hair. Somehow what we think we're giving to Jesus comes back to us, and also is shared with people around us (fragrance).
I was just struck by a sudden image: Lazarus is among those at the dinner party, the living and the (recently) dead feasting together. And isn't this forum a kind of feast for the living and dead? (but not in a creepy, Dawn-of-the-Dead way) Theologians, both living and dead, get to be in conversation here. I guess that won't help anyone's preaching, but I just thought it was cool.
LF
Date: 3/24/2004
Time: 12:55:00 PM
My sermon is a simple one-
I am asking 'why do we worship?'
For some, it is to understand right and wrong- to get the answers. Judas is a good example in this passage (notice only John, our author, judges).
For some, it is to give thanks for new life. Lazarus is here for that.
For others, it is service. The church works for the kingdom. Martha seems to be a good example here too.
For others, worship is being in the presence of God. Mary fulfills this role beautifully.
For God, I think worship is simply being- the I AM of God. Jesus is in relation to all who are present- teaching Judas, raising Lazarus, being served by Martha, being annointed by Mary... allowing all to be with him and he to be with all. Each coming in their need, each recieving what they seek.
TB in MN
Date: 3/24/2004
Time: 1:41:10 PM
LF - that has been the balance the Salvation Army has tried to maintain since its foundation. Mission and worship, in equal doses. And I think our various denominations do a pretty good job of keeping us aware of the need for that balance. They have big-pocket ministries they fund while producing great worship materials. We're not as good at keeping the balance when it gets down to the local church level because ministry and mission often seem so overwhelming to us. We don't think we have much to offer.
If only we could understand that whatever we have on hand is something Jesus can use - Mary happened to have a pound of spikenard around. We may have a store of something Jesus could use from our time and talent cupboard, but we don't pull it out and give it to him because we just don't feel we should, or because somebody will sniff at us in disapproval. Well, when Mary risked it, the room was full of a wonderful scent - mostly composed of Jesus' approval and appreciation. Sniff THAT, Judas!
KHC
Date: 3/24/2004
Time: 9:19:49 PM
Doug:
I picked up on the "here and now" vs future, too. We seldom realize what we have right now, and there's not much we can do about the future--and shouldn't worry about it. Also, when I wake up tomorrow, today's future, I will be in the here and now.
Mark
(occasional lurker)
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 5:48:37 AM
OK ... here's my little dificulty in applying the "extravagance" and "worship" and "service" things to my church.
They've never had a theology that showed a belief in abundance. In the main sanctuary, the hot water has never even been hooked up. There's no indication that they ever intended to use hot water. The light plugs are few and far between. Every piece of furniture in the sanctuary has a plaque of someone's name on it (I know this is common practice, but until this point, I'd never seen it used to this degree and it, frankly, was off-putting to me). I cannot preach without seeing the plaque of "NH" on the pulpit because he built it.
I also think of their belief that they "can't afford" missions and ministry. They see apportionments as a tax and are embittered about it.
When I suggested we invite more people to this big "fundraiser" they hold (called a Tater Bash), they said, "we don't have a health-dept-approved kitchen." I wondered, then, how all these other litle churches do THEIR fundraisers in the SAME TYPE of kitchen.
When I suggested a Summer children's program, they said, "we can't afford the utilities." That was after they said, "we don't have any children."
We collected shoes for poor children (THAT type of thing, to be perfectly fair, gets a great deal of response), and we put them on the altar table and all around - with hte soup we also collected (Souper Sole Sunday) and someone took a picture of it. The first comment when we passed the picture around was, "Don't we have a policy about what can go on the altar?"
I suggested we provide some snacks for the standardized testing at the elementary school. Responses included, "Why can't their own mothers give them snacks?" and "Well, Fulton County gives them breakfast."
So ... how would I preach this without wagging my finger in their faces.
Nay-Oh-Mee sent me a great meditation on this - "Mary responds to the reality of death that has been staring them in the face."
My big question is: can we stare death in the face and pronounce and proclaim fragrant victory? Usually, we're too realistic for that.
Sally in GA
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 5:50:35 AM
and it's that "realism" that accelerates death.
Sally
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 5:51:05 AM
Maybe I just need to go to a sales training class so I can sell my ideas better.
Sally
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 6:32:15 AM
Just an unscholarly bit of musing. I know that most commentators don't agree, but I have always taken an imaginative, poetic license with the story... I noticed that Mel Gibson had Mary Magdaline reaching out to touch the feet of Jesus at her first encounter with Him. The Passion portrays her as the woman of John 8, a spurious passage, but one very telling of the character of the Christ, and His love for sinners, His unconventional dealings with women. In fact, there is an interesting theme of women of questionable character who are included in the story of the Lord. You go back to Rahab, Tamar, Bathsheba, Naomi... all included in His lineage. But also including the persistent rumor of His illigtimet birth. Again, it is not a popular interpretation, but Beranrd of Clarveaux used it for a herminutical jumping off place, that just possibly, Mary of Bethany and Mary Magdaline were one and the same person. The thing I find really intriguing about this possiblilty is that if that is true you could very well have the little known and unapprecitated story of the Prodigal DAUGHTER's return. Consider the possibilty that after the death of their father Martha stays home to look after sickly brother, Lazarus. Someone has to earn a living. Magdala had a reputation as a city filled with vice and corruption. What do we know from the Scriptures? Jesus was a friend of sinners. He was constantly criticized for hanging out with prostitutes and sinners. The story of the annointing and the "hair thing" were to be rembered wherever the gospel was proclaimed. John makes it clear that Mary of Bethany was the one who did the hair thing. In the culture of the day it was way out of line for a woman to let down her hair in public. It was not proper for a good Jew to speak to a woman, not his wife, in public. The disciples were amazed that Jesus was speaking to a woman, and a Samaritan at that, in John 4. Jesus was always going against the grain and especially in regards to the treatment of women and children. I like to imagine that Mary came home as Lazarus was nearing death. Perhaps she could have been caught in the very act of adultery. Somehow, she is saved through her meeting with the Lord. The Synoptic Gospels place the sinful woman's anointing of Jesus in the home of a Pharisee named Simon, ealy in the ministry of Jesus. The annointing of Mary of Bethany occurs during the last weeks of the Lord's life. What if these two annointings were by the same person. One, right after her deliverance from 7 demons and a life of sin. If this were the case then it would appear that Mary has come home and has been reunited with her brother and sister. Isn't that just like Jesus? Then the annointing at Bethany in the home of Simon the leper takes on new significance. It is a remberance of a personal history. A demonstration reenacting a time of weeping and wetting Jesus feet with tears of thanksgiving and love. It is an admission that nothing we possess is more precious to us than the Lord. He is the one who forgives our sins and restores our broken relationships. Just applying a sanctified imagination to the text. TA in MS
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 7:18:01 AM
Who would you rather spend a week with, Judas or Mary?
I have a hard time with waste and extravagance. I don't like it when my kids put too much ketchup on their plates. I don't like it when they pour more milk in their glass than they can drink. I don't like it when people build extravagant houses that need heating or air-conditioning and lots of furnishings. I don't like all the waste on packaging, and vehicles that are bigger than people need. I probably would have flipped had I seen a year's worth of ointment get cracked open. A Judas lives within me.
But, maybe those who know the extravagance of God's love don't need so many extravagant material things.
It is easy to think that God is pretty tight with her love. People talk about the love of God without really believing that God likes them. God has to be paid off by the death of Jesus to love us. They talk about a God of perfect justice. God can't love us without some blood sacrifice. The mathematics of grace don't fit with a God of perfect justice. They may think God would just as soon throw us in hell, but reluctantly "saves" us when we pass the test. Guilt and fear are still alive and well in the Christian Church.
Maybe the continual message of Jesus was that God's love is very, very great. It is extravagant. And people like me may have a hard time with that, because I too want justice and love to be carefully measured out and not wasted.
Brent in Pincher
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 7:56:07 AM
TA in MS,
While I'm all for being creative, especially if it will allow us to identify more personally with an event or character, I have a little more trouble with your musings (though I know they are just musings).
First, the woman in the Synoptics is clearly named as a sinner and the event, though it was in Bethany, took place at Simon's, the house of a Pharisee. All three agree. That John does not name her so -- in fact that he gives her a name and it is the Mary of Mary & Martha fame -- means that John has a different agenda, and I am not sure it is a fair reading of scripture to change something so pointedly written.
The Lukan version is clearly about forgiveness along with the issues with the poor that Judas and all the disciples bring up in all three Synoptics. To co-opt John's version and make it about a response to forgiveness of her own behavior I think changes the point of the story.
What Mary does here is thoughtless (i.e., without thought) and selfless -- it is a moment of pure goodness done without thought out of love and gratitude to Jesus. After all, he has just brought her brother back from the dead ... at a cost to himself that she already recognizes. She also recognizes that Lazarus is only the beginning. She does "get it" as many have posted already.
I think to take that totally selfless act, done without thought but out of sheer emotion and woven in such intimacy, and blend it with another Mary from another time and place with a different agenda, is unfair to this Mary. Why make them the same person?
Perhaps it is because it is easier sometimes to see myself doing things in grateful response to God's gifts to me -- forgiveness, creation, etc. But the times in my life that I've done something out of the sheer overwhelming emotion of the moment, a moment of pure goodness, a moment of pure worship -- are few and precious. There is something exquisite in Mary's act, in John's telling, that shines in a way that is not repeated in the other gospels.
mm in pa
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 8:01:56 AM
By the way, an interesting book, written before the DiVinci Codes, is Mary of Magdala -- I believe that's the title. It's an interesting novel that projects who Mary might have been and why there was such a strong connection between her and Jesus. I cannot remember how this particular story plays in the book, or even if it does, but it was an interesting read. It has a Forrest Gump-ish feel to it, that Mary seemed to be at any important event with any important figure mentioned in all the gospels, but there is a plausibility ... with the total understanding that it is a novel, not history.
mm again
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 8:19:52 AM
C. S. Lewis once wrote something to the effect....that "the significance of Mary's anointing became clear to me (him) one day....that the box that was broken over the Holy Feet was one's heart. And that as long as the contents stayed inside, they were more like sewage than perfume."
My sermon speaks about breaking open one's heart before the Lord.....Thanks to Lora in Texas for that poem. It may work itself into my sermon.
Does anyone know of any good clean joke about brokenness? I am looking for a lead in story.
Jude in Wash
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 8:38:37 AM
To mm in pa, Thanks for your thoughts. It really was a beautiful thing she did. I guess one reason I lean towards the idea of one woman and two annointings is that as I researched it, several of the commentators were adament that this could not have been the same woman, since, "Jesus would not allow a known sinner to take a leading role in His ministry." i have not read any of the DeVinci Code, and I am not arguing for any inappropriate relationship. It just irks me that scholars right off the possibility of a sinner being restored and released to minister. That's all our story! It is interesting that magdaline first appears in the Lukan narrative introduced by name in Ch 8. The fact that she is more commonly referred to through her association with Lazarus is understandable. How do we remember our friends, by there failures, or their family? I know one can't be dogmatic, but how many people have you ever seen wipe someone's feet with their hair? Thanks for your thoughts. TA in MS
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 8:40:41 AM
Sally in GA asks:
So ... how would I preach this without wagging my finger in their faces?
Come at the story from the side of Judas what does he 'think' about this action of Mary's; what is going on inside of him to draw out such a reaction? At the very end of the homily embrace Mary. Had Judas embraced Mary he may have been made whole.
tom in ga
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 8:42:35 AM
Sally,
I can sure relate to your struggles! The Women's Association in this church is down to about 4 members, all past the age of 75. They still want to continue their missions, which I applaud. So, I offered them an opportunity to raise $500 or more by selling new Church Cook Books. Now mind you, $500 is more than they have ever had in their treasury before. Their work input would be minimal: I offered to collect recipes - old and new - that people around here love, do the typing, running off, collating and binding of 100 of these books at NO COST to them. It would be 100% profit, if they would just be the ones to offer the books for sale to people in the church, or at their annual pie booth. If they didn't sell them all, there was no money lost to them, and they could give a cookbook to New Members as a Welcome gift. They turned me down flat, saying it would require too much work to sell them, and besides, the church had produced a cookbook in 1971 that everyone still used. Well, except the people who joined after 1971......
I know I'm sounding prideful here, and I don't like that, but I felt my gift offer was extravagant, and it was rejected on the spot. That hurt. Now I have to decide if I will be making any offers in the future when I know they struggle to finance their work.
Just call me whiney........
KHC
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 8:42:38 AM
To Brent in Pincher - Just one woefully inadequate word: BEAUTIFUL! LB in MN
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 8:50:23 AM
The question of ministering to the poor:
"Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor?" (He said this not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief; he kept the common purse and used to steal what was put into it.) John 12:5-6
The issue here has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is a good thing to care for the poor; it has to do with Judas' bad faith. He is stealing money from the treasury (bag); place 300 more denarii in the bag and Judas will reach even deeper.
How do we deal with bad faith within our congregations? People who double-minded, or who have motives for doing things that are not clear or seen. Judas is a hireling and not a shepherd. His comment sounds so correct and right that we are all standing up and taking note, and not hearing what is hidden. Satan works that way ... making the right suggestions for the wrong reason. Judas wishes to deny Mary her devotion because he doesn't have any!
tom in ga
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 8:55:58 AM
Brent in Pitcher,
Your post reminds me of the ideas some around here have: We are all headed for hell. That, they apparently believe, is the course we are born to follow. But then Jesus intervenes and saves the day. If you latch onto him, he sweeps you up and carries you on a course to heaven. If you don't, you remain on the road to hell.
It's an argument we have fairly regularly. I don't buy it that God works that way. I think God's full intent is to give LIFE, to offer abundant grace to every single human being at every single turn. Israel sure learned that. When the prophets were warning of death and judgment and destruction, God was setting the place and the time for Jesus to enter the world. Then the prophets were able to talk about that instead. Hope never runs out where God is. Amazing grace is too wonderful to be understood. It can only be thankfully received.
KHC
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 9:03:36 AM
tom in ga,
Judas had devotion to Jesus, all right. But it was the "what's in it for me/us" devotion. He wanted Jesus to be a militant rebel and lead the Zealots in their fight against Rome. (There are sources that would place not only Judas and Simon the Zealot, but also James the son of Alphaeus and Thaddaeus/Jude as Zealots). If Jesus didn't fit the bill, he was dispensable.
Mary had devotion for Jesus, but it was the "I want nothing in return" devotion.
KHC
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 9:12:08 AM
Sally,
I'd approach your congregation just as Jesus approached everyone in this story- with love. Jesus does not judge Judas but does try to teach him. "The poor you will always have with you..." is not a cynical rejoiner but a statement of encouragment and fact ("You are right, Judas," Jesus is saying. "You do have a ministry to the poor! And, right now, you also have love from me."). We tend to beat up on Judas because we know how the story ends. I feel Jesus went to the cross loving his brother and holding out hope for him as only the Savior could.
It is far easier to point out the faults and tell stories about our members bad points than it is to remember the love and commitment they have made to the church.
It is something akin to coming home from a camping trip- no one every comes home saying that the sun was shining, the lake warm and the trip a smashing success... we talk about the bugs, the burned food on the campfire, and the rain because that stuff is far more interesting and fun to talk about. With pastors, we whine and moan about our goofy people and their stupid, stupid ways.
Consider for a moment the effort with which "NH" made that pulpit that you are now given the honor of preaching from. If it is indeed hand made, imagine the effort that the person went through- picking the wood, fashioning it, imagining its design, polishing its finish. Imagine the pride they might feel in knowing that their pastor will preach God's Word from the pulpit that they made. Could it even be that they made it not to honor themselves but had hope that the words spoken from it might honor God?
TB in MN
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 9:14:25 AM
KHC,
It is amazing how our orientation can affect our vision. You are absolutely correct about Judas. He was looking for something different and thus could not see who was truly before him. How often are my views of the world or others incorrect! Reality is not always what it seems to be. Bad things can be good for us, and good things can be bad for us. (what a strange world we live in). Judas was holding on to his ego, unable to surrender himself to the reality before him, still trying to make deals, still being the Zealot he was, refusing to get caught in the game that just wasn't his cup of tea. How many of us come to worship Sunday after Sunday stil holding on to our egos and unwilling to surrender ourselves to Him who died and rose again. It is for this reason most of my congregation thinks of Easter as a "promise for eternal life" instead of seeing in the events of Holy and Easter the movement of God toward us, bringing us from the darkness of our own destruction and death to abundant living. Mary know in heart all of this ahead of time.
tom in ga
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 9:36:49 AM
Jude in Wash,
How can there be a good joke about brokenness?
I am reminded of the man who said he complained about not having shoes, until he met a man who had no feet.
It's not a joke, but it might lead into a theme of brokeness.
Michelle
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 10:32:34 AM
KHC: Approch those ladies again. Asking them about what they feel would be too much work. Ask them if they mind if you recruit a few younger ladies to help them. If this is UMW group get the purpose out. Ask them if God is done working through them. I would keep at them a bit more, God is calls us to be persistant. Maybe if you can pick out a specific mission that might get the younger ones interested. With missions in over 100 countries that money is badly needed. I would contine to try to ignite them. I told my congregation that if they thought they were too old to do anything any more that it was hogwash! There response is hogwash! As you can tell it really makes me upset when vision is myoptic or worse turned to the problems of self always. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 10:35:59 AM
A clergy woman pointed out to me that this verse is again about love.
The wasteland showed Jesus loved God more than self The hen and chicks shows that God loves us. The prodical sons were looking for love. and now in preparation for the greatest love of all, Mary shows her awesome love for Jesus.
I am mulling this in relationship to extravagant worship.. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 10:47:00 AM
PH in OH - I couldn't get your link to open - Dratz!
No one has mentioned the placement of this story in the gospel of John. As I see it, this is basically a passage telling of the closing of Jesus' public ministry. Then, the anointing (by Mary - but WHICH Mary is debatable)was the anointment before death. I'm still not sure where I'm going with the text, but I think there's something to say about God's desire that we worship. Worship nurtures relationship, and without relationship, all the committee meetings and do-goodings of the church merely noisy gongs and clanging cymbals.
IowaStarr
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 10:47:03 AM
Lf- thanks for the chuckle. Never thought of the feast that way. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 10:57:15 AM
Sally, They sound like they are in Lazarus's tomb... I hope you can be their Jesus and resurrect them! My prayer for your sanity! Nancy-Wi P.s and I was complaining because mine are a bit slow in getting around to giving and pledging for the new sound system. Lord forgive me!
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 11:06:25 AM
Here's a joke about giving of yourself, that speaks to our far too frequent stinginess.
The story is told of a woman who accompanied her husband to the doctor’s office. After his checkup, the doctor called the wife into his office alone. He said: “Your husband is suffering from a very serious disease, combined with some horrible stress in his life. If you want your husband to live, here is what you must do: Each morning fix him a healthy breakfast. Be pleasant and make sure he is in a good mood. Pack him a nutritious lunch so he doesn’t go out and buy junk food at noon. Have an especially nutritious and appealing supper for him when he comes home from work. Don’t bother him with little details of your own problems. It will only make his stress worse. Make love often, and satisfy his every whim. If you do this for the next year, I think your husband will regain his health completely.” On the way home the husband turned to his wife and asked her, “What did the doctor say?” She looked straight ahead and said, “You are going to die.”
Our congregation was considering putting in an elevator. The richest man in town (but not a good giver) said, "Why do this, the congregation will not be here in ten years." My response is that if we don't do something about our entrance, we are only hastening our demise. It got voted down.
JRW in OH
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 11:36:36 AM
This is a link form the bruderhof community that will take you to a portion of Thomas A' Kempis' "The Royal Road"
http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/RoyalRoad.htm?source=DailyDig
this says things about denying self and forgetting our ego better than I can
revgilmer in texarkana
p.s. while you are there, subscribe to their daily dig-well worth it!
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 11:48:02 AM
Sally, you asked how can you approach the subject of extravagence in a congregation that has no extravagence. You said, "without wagging my finger." Sometimes, fingers need to be wagged!
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 11:52:18 AM
A couple of quotes from Philip Yancey.
"When I say the words 'evangelical Christian' what comes to mind? In reply, mostly I hear political descriptions: of strident pro-life activists, or gay-rights opponents, or proposals for censoring the Internet. I hear references to the Moral Majority... not once - not once - have I heard a description redolent of grace. Apparently that is not the aroma Christians give off in the world."
"We live in an atmosphere choked with the fumes of ungrace. Grace comes from outside, as a gift and not an achievement. How easily it vanishes from our dog-eat-dog, survival-of-the-fittest, look-out-for-number-one world.... Every institution, it seems, runs on ungrace and its insistence that we earn our way."
I wonder how I, and the church I serve, smells?
Brent in Pincher
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 11:55:15 AM
Try this picture of Mary.....
She blew $25000 on Jesus. But more than that..... She lowered herself to be position of being a rag to wipe his feet.
I mean, it’s not like she washed his hair. It was his FEET.
Feet that walked dirt roads in sandals. Dirt roads that were traveled by sheep, goats, and cattle.
And there she was, wiping those feet with her own hair. She made herself into a common wash rag for him.
You get the impression that she thought Jesus was of much greater value than she was.
.... That he was of much greater value than anything in the world.
She loved him.
Do we love him that much? Do we see him as that valuable?
GC in IL
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 11:59:09 AM
KHC: You wrote, "I felt my gift offer was extravagant, and it was rejected on the spot." It was an extravagant offer, true, and it was rejected on the spot, true. I wonder how many people in this world have rejected God's extravagant offer? But God keeps after them. Maybe you should, too.
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 12:03:23 PM
I found a joke that relates to Judas' criticism of Mary's act (or at least being critical)
While traveling separately through the countryside late one afternoon, a Hindu, a Rabbi, and a Critic were caught in the same area by a terrific thunderstorm. They sought shelter at a nearby farmhouse. "That storm will be raging for hours," the farmer told them. "You'd better stay here for the night. The problem is, there's only enough for two of you. One of you will have to sleep in the barn."
"I'll be the one," said the Hindu. "A little hardship is nothing to me." He went out to the barn. A few minutes later there was a knock at the door. He was the Hindu. "I'm sorry," he told the others, "but there is a cow in the barn. According to my religion, cows are sacred and one must not intrude into their space."
"Don't worry," said the Rabbi. "Make yourself comfortable here. I'll go sleep in the barn." He went out to the barn. A few minutes later, there was a knock at the door. It was the Rabbi.
"I hate to be a bother," he said, "but there is a pig in the barn. In my religion, pigs are considered unclean. I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing my sleeping quarters with a pig."
"Oh, all right," said the Critic. "I'll go sleep in the barn." He went out to the barn. A few minutes later, there was a knock at the door. It was the cow and the pig.
Jude in Wash
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 12:09:14 PM
What a wonderful interchange on this site! How does one get connected to this conversation?
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 12:09:42 PM
What a wonderful interchange on this site! How does one get connected to this conversation? Please reply to hfumcpastor@yahoo.com
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 12:10:16 PM
What a wonderful interchange on this site! How does one get connected to this conversation? Please reply to hfumcpastor@yahoo.com
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 12:10:17 PM
What a wonderful interchange on this site! How does one get connected to this conversation? Please reply to hfumcpastor@yahoo.com
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 1:10:22 PM
Do any of you recall a website from contributors either last year or the year before who refered to a sermon entitled "have you broken a vase lately?"
I've been trying to find it and I am sure I found it here--anyways, I can't seem to get the right ".url" so was hoping one of you might be able to point me in the right direction--it was a powerful message.
Pastor in BC (Canada, eh!)
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 1:35:27 PM
TA in MS,
Thanks for not biting my head off! I reread my post a couple of hours later and fear that I may have come off sounding angry and harsh. Didn't mean to -- thanks for not reading it that way.
I'm sorry that your commentators have such a high bar placed on sinners and women (especially if found in the same person) in Jesus' ministry -- I'm afraid my reaction might be to use that particular commentator's work as a doorstop.
I, too, would be irked by scholars that write off the possibility of a sinner being restored and called into viable and valuable ministry. It IS all of our story, I completely agree.
I guess my plea was to not see John's Mary as the one and only Mary (and therefore the Magdalene)-- that there could not be more than one who was drawn to Jesus. There are strong, but precious few enough women who made it into the gospels. Creativity aside, there is no reason to assume the two are one and the same.
Again, thanks for hearing my post in the manner in which it was intended, a dialogue, as opposed to how I feared it may have sounded. mm in pa
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 2:06:14 PM
Every time this scripture comes up I chuckle. I must share this story with you as I think it might prove a good illustration to someone else. While in seminary during a preaching class, I witnessed someone acting out this scripture. She sang a song from "Jesus Christ Superstar" as she anointed Jesus' feet. What I chuckle about is that at the most important moment where Mary anoints Jesus' feet with the expensive Nard, this seminarian pulls out an atomizer and gives the room a spritz. I howled with laughter!
There is a message there, but I just can't wrap my mind around it. Hope one of you can.
RB in PA
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 2:24:16 PM
this is the web address for the hymn in the first posting http://www.firstpresby.org/pastorscolumnMar03.htm Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 2:32:40 PM
Ph in Ohio, I couldn't get the link to open either. can you repostt it? To anyone who wants to join all you do is type in your contribution and submit it. On most browsers you have to reload to see your post. I do belong to the site for which you pay a nominal fee. Clik on member login for details. Nancy-Wi.
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 2:33:08 PM
Abraham Heschel in his little book "Man's Quest for God" speaks of the Jewish concept of "Kavanah" ... "to direct the heart. It is attentiveness to God, an act of appreciation of bleing able to be in the presence of God.." "It is inner devotion." "Jewish tradition insists that no performance is complete without the participation of the heart. It asks for kavanah, for inner participation, not only for external action."
Jean-Pierre De Caussade in "Abandonment to Divine Providence" says " Jesus does not demand great deeds. All he wants is self-surrender and gratitude ..." "We must completely forget ourselves, so that we regard ourselves as an object which has been sold and over wheich we no longer have any rights. We find all our joy in fulfilling God's pleasure - his happiness, his glory and the fact that he is our great and only delight."
I may have alread said the following elsewhere, but we say it again. Judas could not share in Mary's delight and her humble self-donation; he could only find something critical to say. He could not affirm her gift, it was unimportant, as all women were thought to be. In the midst of her gift, he has a better idea, one that comes to late. It is only after she pours the perfume and wipes his feet with her hair that Judas opens his mouth to find her gift at fault. "Why didn't you sell the perfume and give the money to the poor?" No acknowledgement of her supreme offering in the face of our Lord's sacrifice.
tom in ga
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 3:11:17 PM
I am looking at the text this week as an examination of our denial of death. The details of rich and poor and cost of the perfume etc. are the context but not the main point. Jesus has been talking about his death (and does so again within this passage) but most of the disciples pass it off. Mary gives the perfume she was saving for his burial. She honors him while he is still alive accepts the reality of his coming death and that is what Jesus honors.
I will be looking at some stuff from Hospice about and noting that a belief in resurrection need not be a denial of physical death and that we can be about honoring the person while they are still alive
Steve in Wyoming
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 7:16:33 PM
I went out and bought some spikenard today for an illustration for my sermon. However, when I got home and looked at the label more closely, it said it contained olive oil and fragrance. I hope the fragrance comes from the spikenard plant. However, now I'm wondering if what Mary used was similarly compounded. Scripture says she used "pure nard." Is pure nard different from spikenard?
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 7:17:18 PM
I'm reminded of those funerals we all have... loved ones say, "She always said she didn't want any flowers at her funeral...'If they can't give them to me when I'm alive' I don't want them at my funeral.'"
Perhaps that's Jesus's reasoning... "The poor will always be with you... Mary has done an extravagant thing... chances are the money would not reach the poor... there are many baskets for gifts.
Would Judas have felt differently if Mary had "wasted it on him"?
Several years ago, musicians by the name of Avery and Marsh wrote a piece which captures the essence of this perspective. The words go like this:
There are lots of lonely people, lots of strange, peculiar people, who need all the love that anyone can give.
We've been told: "Don't speak to strangers and the ones who aren't approved of, but perhaps we have forgot how Jesus lived. . .
There are lots and lots of people who are hard to get along with, who demand and hate and tear down every one.
But we're not to be their judges, not their wardens, nor their masters, we're supposed to be their servants like God's Son. . .
We are parents, we are children, and we're living here together, but the way we treat each other is bizarre.
We must learn to see each other with the eyes of understanding, as the hungry, needing people that we are. . .
Love them now. Don't wait till they're gone away. Love them now, while they're around.
Touch them, hold them, laugh and cry with them,. Show them, tell them, don't deny with them. Honor them, give birth and die with them now. Love them now, before they're just a guilt memory. Love them now, Love them now.
Still, this passage bothers me for Jesus comes off sounding as though he is being selfish here... not a "Christlike" quality we have been led to exemplify in our lives.
Strangely, I am drawn to this passage, perhaps because it shows that Jesus is more like us than I used to think... perhaps he WAS like us... selfish, wanting the finer things for ourselves and our families... still I wonder.
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 7:17:27 PM
Sorry, I forgot this discussion site does not ID contributers. The question re spikenard is from me, Dan in AK.
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 7:17:34 PM
Sorry, I forgot this discussion site does not ID contributers. The question re spikenard is from me, Dan in AK.
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 7:38:48 PM
Seeing with the eyes of Christ...
I Had an interesting experience, (you probably can't use it THIS Sunday. But I think it's worth "filin'" for another time.) You be the judge...
Last Sunday following worship, my son Brandon and I went out for lunch. We drove to Arby's by Target. We don't usually go that Arby's… it's not the closest one to our home. Still, we stopped in. And things DIDN'T look good from the beginning. First, a worker behind the counter was handing a cup to a patron adding, "Sorry, I forgot your drink!" Then, another came up with an order for another patron stating, "Sorry about the wait!"…
Still, before we were able to put our order in a man in his mid-sixties or so approached the counter. "Uh Miss, could I speak to your manager!" Another man walked by me picked up his order and almost bumped into me with his tray and said to the man, "Good luck!" "Just a minute sir, she’s really busy!" "That's ok, I will wait!" he said.
I tried to talk my son into going to another restaurant... "Settle!" said my son. So we decided to stay... in spite of the scene.
I watched the man as he waited… patiently… We put in our order… I wanted to see what he was going to say… "She'll be here in a minute said one worker to the man waiting at the counter!" We received our meal in short order and were forced to go find a seat as it would have looked "nosey" to stand around waiting, I mean, I could only fill my pop so many times and sip on it before suspicion gave me away.
Meanwhile my son had taken a seat in a booth on the other side of the room. I walked over and took my seat facing the serving counter. 2 or 3 more times, a worker would tell the man, "The manager will be with you shortly."
I sat facing him from the other side of the restaurant. Wondering just what he was going to chew out the manager for! "She'll be right here!" said yet another worker at the counter… it must have taken 5 minutes… maybe 10. It seemed like an hour to my "nosey self".
Finally the manager came and I overheard just what a nearby worker said, "Sir, would you mind putting that in writing?"
I still didn't get it! I saw the man leave the restaurant doors, he opened them patiently for his wife… she was using a walker. Out to their car they went. "Lord, I wish I knew what he said!", ...I said to myself. I was almost out of pop… and I got up from my table...and sure enough just then, he returned to the door of the restaurant, his wife headed to the restroom. He stood by the door waiting for her.
"I thought you were going to really give it to the manager?" I said, "You got me curious, ...What did you say to the manager?" I asked... "Oh," he said, "I just told her how much I appreciated them working so hard so that my wife and I could enjoy our meal. I guess I may have chosen a bad time to tell her. It's so easy for people to take the service industry for granted, and I wanted her to know we appreciated it."
I saw a glimpse of the Savior Sunday at an Arby’s restaurant... last Sunday afternoon.
I hope you see as he saw too!
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 7:45:01 PM
Nancy-Wi, it's probably too late for me, but how do you "get" the fragrance? Sounds like a good idea to unleash it on the congregation... get some of our senses involved in worship... DGinNYC
Date: 3/25/2004
Time: 8:02:53 PM
Part of me wonders?
Maybe Jesus had bad feet odor... STINKY feet? Thus the "smelly perfume"... 12 oz. worth! A waste? I think not! ;?)
Just a thought...
with grins,
pulpitt in nd
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 1:39:59 AM
Just wanted to say that I found this site a few months ago and you are all so helpful hope to post something soon
Rev247-sydney
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 5:18:55 AM
mm in pa, No problem. Thanks for your thoughts. I really do enjoy the exchange of ideas, especially when I get the perspective of women preachers. That's a rarity in my tradition, and sorely needed when dealing with a passage that has a woman in the central role. I have two daughters who have been called to ministry, but they have so few opportunities to exercise their gifts. Lately I have been struggling with how to help the poor without doing them a disservice by fostering a climate of entitlement and dependency. The Bible says, "If you don't work, you don't eat." and yet we are to give extravagantly, lavishly, hilariously, to the least of these as unto the Lord. Any thoughts? TA in MS
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 5:50:06 AM
Regarding the question about the spikenard:
Nard is the Hebrew name for the spikenard plant from which the ointment comes. Its roots are the part with the fragrance. Grows in the Himalayan mts. Was used as a medicine and a perfume by Hindus. The Greek word "pistikos" probably means "genuine" or "unadulterated", hence the term "pure nard". (Westminster Dictionary of the Bible)
I would guess most times the nard, being as expensive as it was, would be mixed with the olive oil for most uses. Mary, on the other hand, apparently believed Jesus was worth the real stuff and poured it liberally, full strength.
KHC
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 6:02:43 AM
The Avery and Marsh song got me feeling guilty. There's an employee of this church who is the most unreliable person I know. Late for chuch (and he's the organist), doesn't show up for practices with vocalists, shows up unprepared when guest-directing a community choir, forgets to bring his music with him.... and that's just THIS week. Talking to him does no good. He doesn't change a thing. There is nobody out there to replace him, so letting him go will serve no one. And he needs the money badly.
I'm at my wit's end with him, and then you have to go and give me the words to the Avery and Marsh song about reaching out in Christ. Thanks a heap for bringing God's word into my dungeon of gloom.
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 6:28:23 AM
Just a couple aspects that have not been mentioned, yet: 1) At my usual text study this past week, a colleague said that there were only two uses for spikenard - anointing for burial, and anointing a bride for her wedding. Did Mary "waste" her wedding spices on Jesus?
and 2) Had Mary bought the spikenard for her brother's funeral? If not, why did she not use it? Remember when Jesus came, but Lazarus had been dead for four days - "He has already begun to stink of death"
NewPastorInWisconsin
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 6:56:16 AM
Pulpitt in ND -
As a serving and fast-food veteran, I TRULY appreciate your story. How seldom we got thanked other than perfunctorily! How frequently customers became impatient with us because of our "many distractions!" And how very frequently we got impatient with customers because they wouldn't order on time, or changed their mind (did you know that the wait staff is held accountable for those - every change of mind must be verified and signed by a manager, and with only 3-5 seconds to greet a newly seated party, standing there while someone can't make up their mind is frustrating).
Tip your servers generously - and leave a business card and a little inspirational card (found in any Christian book store). It'll make their day!!!
-Sally in GA
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 7:00:28 AM
RB in PA -
Hmmm.... Mary as the "Spray Lady" at the cosmetics counter in a department store!
Or, perhaps the antithesis to the Spray Lday.
Sally in GA
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 7:07:09 AM
I'd said it as a joke just a few minutes ago, but I'm thinking it actually is a good lead-in.
We've all been "assaulted" by odors - whether it's by the Spray Lady, or someone's perfume that's gone bad, or over-doused perfume, or even an air freshener that gives us a headache...
Yet, here's a fragrant perfume filling the room - and Judas takes offense.
It gave him a headache, not a literal headache, but the metaphorical headache. The kind of headache that some call a "pain in the neck" (or less clean veresions of the same). Her lavishness thwarted his agenda.
We get mad, too, when our agendas are thwarted - regardless of how noble our "cause" I often refer to things as "a headache," like right now, TurboTax is a "headache" for me because I can't seem to correct the problem that will let me print it out. It's a big headache.
In the church, the big headache for me is that the congregants aren't interested in my agenda (despite my sincere desire to do God's work).
Sally in GA
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 9:50:41 AM
Thanks Sally,
I told the "guy" he made my day, and I KNOW he made theirs.
Continuiing the message with you all,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 10:51:14 AM
Sally you'll be glad to know I tip my servers a minimum of 50% for just bringing us the food and beverage, and 100% of the bill for doing anything beyond that.
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 10:53:06 AM
Thanks, KHC, for the clarification on the nard. The spikenard that I bought was $6.00 for 1/4 oz. And that's the cut version! Of course, you have to understand that just about everything is more expensive in Alaska, but, nonetheless, that works out to $384.00 a pint (which is what one version of the Bible says she used)! Except, as you point out, she used the pure stuff--probably 3-4x as much. By the way, the 2002 average annual wage in the US was $33,252.09. That's a lot of money to "waste" annointing somebody's feet! Dan in AK
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 11:02:19 AM
From: Oklahoma Irishman To: DPSers
In KJV, Verse 8, Jesus says,"Against the day of my burying hath she [Mary] done this." He is saying, "She has annointed me for burial." Mary did not know she was annointing him for burial. She was showing her gratitude to Jesus for restoring Lazarus to her family. Lazarus was sitting at the head of the table over there.
Most of us do not know the importance of what we do.The little deed we do or word we utter can have lasting impact. In fact, people who presume to govern what the future holds are fools, because it is God who holds the future.
My grandchildren were here with their mother this week. One morning the children [all four of them] wanted breakfast. "What do you want?" "M & Ms and ice cream!" I gave them M & Ms and ice cream. My daughter awoke an hour later and fussed at me about the counter-cultural cuisine. "What if they grow up thinking it is OK for people to eat M & Ms and ice cream for breakfast?" I said, "Tell 'em to come to Oklahoma!"
When it comes to Jesus, there is always a bigger picture. Thinking outside the boundries is a plus. This is one of St. John's themes throughout his gospel. Remember, in the garden in Bethany, Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life . . . ." Here, Jesus says, "Me ye have not always." [KJV]
Another way to say this same thing: Could it be that the best we do to honor Christ is really preparing him for burial, since we do not know the outcome of what we say or do. Final crises, judgements, are not in our hands. I'm in homily freefall right now. Keep the faith!
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 11:02:56 AM
From: Oklahoma Irishman To: DPSers
In KJV, Verse 8, Jesus says,"Against the day of my burying hath she [Mary] done this." He is saying, "She has annointed me for burial." Mary did not know she was annointing him for burial. She was showing her gratitude to Jesus for restoring Lazarus to her family. Lazarus was sitting at the head of the table over there.
Most of us do not know the importance of what we do.The little deed we do or word we utter can have lasting impact. In fact, people who presume to govern what the future holds are fools, because it is God who holds the future.
My grandchildren were here with their mother this week. One morning the children [all four of them] wanted breakfast. "What do you want?" "M & Ms and ice cream!" I gave them M & Ms and ice cream. My daughter awoke an hour later and fussed at me about the counter-cultural cuisine. "What if they grow up thinking it is OK for people to eat M & Ms and ice cream for breakfast?" I said, "Tell 'em to come to Oklahoma!"
When it comes to Jesus, there is always a bigger picture. Thinking outside the boundries is a plus. This is one of St. John's themes throughout his gospel. Remember, in the garden in Bethany, Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life . . . ." Here, Jesus says, "Me ye have not always." [KJV]
Another way to say this same thing: Could it be that the best we do to honor Christ is really preparing him for burial, since we do not know the outcome of what we say or do. Final crises, judgements, are not in our hands. I'm in homily freefall right now. Keep the faith!
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 11:35:02 AM
I'm often extravagent. With criticism. With attitute of superiority. With dramatic responses to others' thoughts. With self-indulgence. What I'm rarely extravagent in are the qualities that mark my life as a Christian.
"All to Jesus I surrender, all to him I freely give. I will ever love and trust him In his presence daily live. I surrender all, I surrender all. All to thee, my precious Savior, I surrender all."
J.W. VanDeVenter, author, 1896
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 11:39:16 AM
Dear "Newpastor and Nancy in Wisconsin", I've read the DaVinci Code and am challenged wonderfully in my traditional understandings of Mary of Bethany/Magdela. Further, I'm now reading "The Woman with the Alabaster Jar" by Starbird (a Roman Catholic scholar) and I believe it might have been one of Brown's references for DaVinci code. What is proposed is heresy, of course but then I'm drawn to heresy because it stretches me and breaks open my own jar in which I contain God. The concept is that Mary IS married to Jesus - that the nard WAS an acknowledgement of their sacred marriage and part of the myth that the bridegroom would be sacrificed. If this is true, the impact on my interpretations and therefore, preaching of this text changes dramatically.
From a feminist perspective, Judas' criticism (and the same from the other disciples in the synoptic texts) is classic for that time and still today. Men and our society are uncomfortable with intimacy - and this was a VERY intimate act of love done in public. What is it that underlies our fears of giving and receiving deep love from God or humans?? Why do we revert to thinking instead of opening our hearts (thanks to many who have addressed this already in prior postings)? In our vulnerability to God or another, we admit we don't have all the answers, aren't able to fix everything, can't get someone else to comply with our wishes/visions/needs. WE are the poor who are in this world always - poor for our lack of giving extravagant, trusting love (as Mary) and poor for our stingy receiving (Judas). WE are also the poorer for NOT acknowleging the divinity in those whom we love, those with whom we live and those whom we serve as pastors. Better stop before I complete my sermon here.
Offered in heretical ("independent thinking") love, Susan in CA
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 2:30:21 PM
I got the nard through the internet when I bought my alabaster jar. I think I still have the name in a retreat box of stuff.
However, this nard really smells, it is very musky and at a retreat several people reacted badly to it. I don't think I would unleash it until after the offering. :-> lol. It is also very sensual. I am putting the jar on the communion table.
Great posts from all, lots of stuff to mull over. I may try to corrolate our new sound with the fragrance... each are helpful to relating to Christ. For many they think good sound is an extravagance.
I am interested in any suggestion you may have about adding a second service or any advice about starting a hispanic service. I welcome books but personal stuff including failures often have great value. revncarmichael@yahoo.com Nancy-Wi.
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 2:36:39 PM
The First Sunday After Easter (April 18th) is also Holocaust Remebrance Day, as well as the Sunday before Earth Day. The lectionary texts for that day don't seem particularly appropriate for these occasions. Does anybody have ideas on alternative scriptures to use, or perhaps on ways to use the lectionary texts in a sensitive manner with these "holidays" in mind?
Grace and peace, California Preachin'
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 3:44:42 PM
I've been "listening" in on these wonderful lectionary discussions for months -- find them very helpful and often provocative.
I have a practical suggestion for Nancy in WI re the fragrance: I'm a college chaplain and find that students really respond to multi-sensory worship. I plan to place incense sticks (a mixture of sandalwood, clove and musk to mimic some of the ingredients in spikenard) in holders strategically around the chapel to "fill the house with the fragrance of the perfume" CV in Michigan
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 6:42:28 PM
thought re: Scripture - as we encounter and recognize the One who is the ultimate source of our extravagant grace, wonderful gift, our response should share that with others
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 7:18:49 PM
For those planning to use fragrances--
In my experience, some people with asthma cannot tolerate strong fragrances. Please give notice before unleashing the strong fragrance in the room. Some might also have allergies.
Some of my parishoners have told me that they need to sit where fresh air enters the room when a crowd is present just because of the various perfumes people wear.
Just thought you might like to be aware of the possibilities.
Michelle
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 7:56:25 PM
what does the textual variant in Greek mean,
tetaraken
(a's are eta's, not alpha's)
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 10:52:27 PM
tetaraken: 3rd person singular perfect active indicative verb of tareo
tarasa: 3rd person singular aorist active subjunctive verb of the same word tareo
So, from what my limited Greek, it meant that the majority receptus text said that Mary "kept" the perfume for Jesus's burial, while the scholarly-deemed-accurate-text said that she "may have kept" the perfume for that purpose.
Which interpretation are you going to lean on? (Was Mary intentionally keep the perfume for Jesus burial?) Thanks for raising this interesting detail.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 11:04:08 PM
Calif Preachin, I realize that John's text using for fear of the Jews is a stickler on a Holacaust Remembrance Sunday, but maybe in some ways it strikes at the heart of the matter. I wonder how much of the "fear of the Jews" is that which always leads to persecution of the Jews. There would be in the text some possibility of using Jesus showing his wounds as a sermon. Many Holocaust survivors had wounds and even numbers carved into their skin as a reminder of all that had happened. Out of Jesus wounds came our peace and salvation. We can only hope that the reminders of the Holocaust will also be part of the world's salvation from tyrants and those who pick on people different than them. Just a few thoughts early. Joy in IL
Date: 3/26/2004
Time: 11:10:39 PM
Rev. JAW, I am a CTS grad. TB, you seem to be saying something similiar to someone that I read in a commentary, only it said, Martha serves, Lazarus shares (at the meal) and Mary worships. Loved the quote from CS Lewis from one of you. It occurs to me that in this text also there is the picture of Jesus teaching us how to graciously receive. We can more easily give lavishly than we can receive graciously. Just think how hard it is for you to receive a gift without thinking about what you will do to "get even." Do we give to the Poor who are always with us, while looking down our noses at those who are just "takers?" Is gracious receiving also the problem we have of receiving the grace of God? Joy in IL
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 1:12:05 AM
I'm going to show a clip of a film called babette's feast - about who woman who spends all her money on a really extravangant meal for some visitors
Rev Ev in UK
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 5:15:07 AM
Coho,
Thank you for the Greek help.
I was mostly wondering where the "she bought it" comes from.
I think maybe she had kept it for his burial, but now believed she would no longer need it for that purpose. He had power over life and death, he had just demonstrated that with Lazarus. Her anointing may have been both thanksgiving, and belief that he would not die (even though Jesus knew he would).
R
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 6:56:56 AM
R,
You are right, only the RSV and NRSV version have "She bought it" idea. Sometimes the translator decided to smooth out the reading of the text. In this case, I think they might have gone too far and introduced extra ideas into the text. I guess that's why we have multiple versions of the Bible to cross reference this stuff...
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 7:23:46 AM
Why would anybody have a full pound of pure nard sitting around the house? Were they in the business of selling nard for burials, and might even mix it with oil when it was time to use it? Might Lazarus have been anointed with just a light anointing of nard-in-oil like everyone else? When Jesus came,it was no longer business as usual, but concern about nard income went by the wayside.
Nothing to support these musings, I know, but it just strikes me odd that Mary had bought this nard. Maybe she bought it from a trader as business inventory?????
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 7:43:45 AM
Maybe the poor are simply those who do not recognize who Jesus is and the great love he has for all... Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 8:46:51 AM
Does anybody else remember that perfume - "Evening In Paris" - that came in the dark blue bottle and was brought out every Christmas? I bought that for my mom for many years - it probably stunk up the house but I only remember the feeling of buying my mother something extravagent. I think this reading is some of the same - the nard wasn't the important thing, nor was the smell or the price. The gift was in the buying in the wish to give something you believe to be of great value to someone you loved. L in MN
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 10:17:30 AM
L in Mn: I too as a child bought the "eveing in Paris" in the beautiful blue bottle.. As a child it had a dear price. We would always sneak into our parents bedroom to see if mom "needed" more..she always did. Just a few years ago when I brought this up, she smiled and said, yes, she knew that we did and each occasion she would carefully pour the stuff down the drain so it appeared like she need more. She said,it really smelled bad, but our hearts were always in the right place. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 11:32:11 AM
The thing that strikes me about the perfume stories is the love of the mother, too, who allowed the gift to happen. Pure nard may have been more useful to Jesus than Evening in Paris was to our mothers, but it shared the quality of being a little over the top. Yet Jesus knew how extremely important it was to allow Mary to make that gift, just like a mama who makes room for her children to give her more perfume.
Laura in TX
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 12:26:19 PM
Rev Ev: Babette does not cook the feast for some "visitors" .. she cooks it for a dying religious group that assembled to remember the 100th bithday of their founder. Where he had preached grace, they had hung on to bitterness and stinginess. And Babette the outsider, the foreigner, the servant, gave all of her unexpected windfall (enough to take her back home and set up in style and spend it on a dinner they didn't even want to eat because they thot it sinful. Only the other outsider (the military gentleman) could recognize the extravagance and artistry of this meal. In the end though, love and extravagance and generosity, through the medium of food, worked its magic.
Rev.chef
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 2:45:11 PM
Rev Ev and Rev Chef,
>I'm going to show a clip of a film called >babette's feast - about who woman who spends all >her money on a really extravangant meal for some >visitors
>Rev Ev in UK
I've see the Film Babette's Feast a couple of times, which clip are you thinking of showing? It's late, but, it's only Saturday afternoon, perhaps I could find it at the video store prior to worship in the AM.
Thanks,
Pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 3:31:19 PM
It's late on Saturday and I didn't think of this until now, but perhaps in three years it will be of help to someone. Mary knows that Jesus is going to die and she is having a pre-death funeral.
A few years ago there was a young mother who was a member of a neighboring church who was near the end of her life because she had incurable cancer. Everyone including her knew that her death would come soon. People came by to visit with her, to console her husband, to watch over her child, and they kept watch because they wanted her to know how much they loved her right up until the end. But to everyone’s surprise, especially hers, she didn’t die as soon as was expected. She lingered on, week after week, always wondering if each week would be her last.
Finally someone decided that since she was still alive and well enough to get out of the house and go to church, they would go ahead and have her funeral while she was still able to hear all the good things they would say about her. So they did. They brought flowers and played music and preached and prayed and most of all, they told each other and her how much they loved her, and how much her love had meant to them. Not long after that she died. It was a living funeral, and a beautiful experience.
JKS
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 4:13:47 PM
When I read the John text, three things come to mind: Mary in an act of reverence kneeled at the feet of Jesus, protrate in His presence in an act of worship. This could not have been and was not an easy act. But this action tells us somethings about Mary's understanding of worship, and somethings we should emulate as a worshipping people.
1) Mary in defied cost. The oil she used was costly, approximately 25,000USD today! This is truly a great and large amount that she used, but in her worship of Christ, it was priceless. How much are we prepared to spend in our worship of Christ? Is there a cost factor in our worship of Jesus? Do we always measure everything when it comes to God and His Church in terms of money?
2) Mary defied beauty. As she poured the oil, she could have used towels, or anything else. But giving totally of herself, she used her hair. The hair of a woman was her beauty. The hair of a woman tells her strength. But it was this, her beauty that she used in worship. Her beauty was of no importance in her worship of Christ. Do we value and treasure the things that make us beautiful and allow that to hinder our worship of Christ?
3) Mary defied opposition. To be in favor with Christ is to lose favor to the world. Judas chided and rebuked Mary because of her action. This did not cause Mary to shudder, she continued at the prompting of Jesus. When we worship God, there will be opposition be it from friends or even from persons who are considered "Church Goers" or in the "inner circles" of the church. But we must always remember that our worship is not to man, but to God. Family will oppose, but we must worship not for our Glory or to man's glory, but to the Glory of God.
Just some ramblings! SHALOM!
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 5:14:24 PM
Laura in Tx. very nice summary of the Evening in Paris. Thanks Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 5:17:01 PM
Joy in IL,
Thanks so much for the ideas for Holocaust Remebrance! I had been concerned about shying away from the lectionary text, as we do need to face the texts in our scriptures that have unfortunately encouraged anti-Jewishness and anti-Semitism. Perhaps by looking at the text in a different way, as you had suggested, will be more powerful than using a more innocuous text. I am thinking of finding a good Psalm or using one of the creation stories in Genesis to go with Earth Day.
Peace and grace, California Preachin'
Date: 3/27/2004
Time: 5:19:31 PM
The background is:
God loves the rich and the poor. Matthew 5:43-48
Sinners love the rich and hate the poor. Matthew 6:24.
Hatred is the spirit of thieving and of stealing AND MURDER AND BETRAYAL.
Judas hated himself as poor and so was already spiritually stealing Love from himself and from others in his heart. Romans 13:8-10.
This sin of hatred for himself as poor and as a loser combined with his correct Love for being rich and for himself as a gainer or winner is what then drove Judas to be be rich and to gain in order to lvoe himself:
and to keep on loving himself, he wd have to get more and more rich, gain more and more riches and riches: he then becomes greedy.
The Love of money combined with hatred for being poor is a root of all evil! 1 timothy 6:5-10.
So when Judas, in his Hate for being poor and in his hate for wasters and for the unprofitable and for being dirty and for a bunch of other words as in Romans 8:35-39 and 2 Corin 12:9-10, saw Mary wasting costly and expensive perfume on the DIRTY FEET of Jesus,
it was as John wrote in verse 6:
(He said this not because he LOVED OR cared about the poor, but because he HATED HIMSELF AS POOR AND SO WD DO ANYTHING, EVEN STEAL ANYTHING TO SELL IT FOR MONEY TO GET RICH IN ORDER TO LOVE HIMSELF AND BE LOVED BY OTHERS AND SO was a SPIRITUAL thief AND A PHYSICAL THIEF;
he kept the common purse and used to, WAS LAREADY IN THE HABIT OF stealING what was put into it!!!!!!!!!)
And Jesus who knew that hIs real problem was the sin of hate for himself as poor and as etc AND knowing that Judas was chosen for a certain purpose of betraying him simply said in effect:
Judas, you can't have the rich without the poor nor the poor without the rich: poor and rich are relative terms: poor is less rich than rich: so even if you were rich but you were less rich a richer person, ypu would still be poor as compared to the richer person.
Ditto for vice versa: the rich are less poor than the poor: so when the first poor man is less poor than another man who is more poor, the first poor man might as well be and is rich! So the sin of Hate for being poor is why we have more poor on poor crime: any poor person less poor than me is rich: so if I hate being poor, I will steal from any other poor man who is less poor than me to get money or to get property to sell for money so I can get rich to lvoe myself!
So love yourself as rich and as poor so you wd be able to love all other rich and poor people as yourslef,
and so you'd be able to also me as yourself when you are poor because you will have lost me, and when you are less rich because I