Date: 3/8/2004
Time: 7:12:40 AM
When I preach this I will have been gone one week. I am going to remind the congregation of the image of the Hen and chicks, Using the picture that someone posted here, remind them of the shadow that shelters all, and then I am following it with the forgiveness that is the problem for the brother. Too often when someone returns to church, it seems like it take the community a while to forgive, and to move on and love them into the congregation. When we celebrate one in community we celebrate all. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/8/2004
Time: 10:13:48 PM
I think I'll preach this on March 14. I'm baptizing someone on the 21st, and I want to use the 14th's Isaiah 55 passage (Come to the water) that week. Am I walking into a lamentable situation? Think it'll go allright? Indecisive on a Monday - kbc in sc
Date: 3/9/2004
Time: 10:33:22 AM
Luke devotes this chapter to three parables on the theme of lost and found: the lost sheep, the lost coin, and finally the beautiful tale of a son "who was lost and has been found" (Lk 15.32).
This third parable is often called the story of the prodigal son. Perhaps another title of the story might be the prodigal father. A son who rejects his family and wastes family fortune is not news. Neither is an elder son who lives out of his resentment. However, a father who is willing to risk his prestige, his honour, and a great portion of his wealth in loving a son enough to let him go and welcome him home again - this is news. It's good news if this is a story about the nature of God.
In handing over the younger son's portion of the inheritance, the father allows himself to be metaphorically killed. The younger son lives as if his father were dead. The fatted calf killed at the son's return would only have been killed for a visiting notable or the wedding of one of the family's children. Both occasions are crucial ways to confirm prestige in the community. That father gives this up. Perhaps the most striking element of this story for Jesus' original hearers would have been the ludicrous notion of a father running to meet his son. Men of wealth and position never ran in public and certainly never ran to someone in a less honourable position than themselves. The father counts it all as worth nothing compared to welcoming home his "lost" son.
What is the new world that the father invokes in thse lavish acts of love? Who are we in this world of welcome? What celebrations would our worship services be if we knew ourselves to be as outrageously and extravagantly loved as the younger son? What might our communities and the world be if we could welcome the outcasts, those whom society counts as lost, as extravagantly?
Date: 3/9/2004
Time: 10:35:08 AM
Jesus tells a story about a son who discovers his father's love only when he walks away from it. But the father's grace is also a crisis for an older brother, who thought that by his obedience he had earned a place in the father's home.
Date: 3/10/2004
Time: 9:27:32 AM
I'm getting an early start for once!
My sermon title is "What About Me?" I'll begin by remembering my sons when they were small. Anytime one of them was praised, the other would say, "What about me?" It was so hard for each of them to see the other rewarded in any way. As they got older, "What about me?" became a family joke, but the truth of it remains.
The brother who stayed home has a bad case of "What about me?" And who can blame him. He's worked hard, been loyal, done all the right things. It reminds me of many many conversations in Sunday School through the years about death bed conversions and how unfair it seems that "those people" will go to heaven with "us."
Well the trick of this passage is to realize that we probably aren't the son who stayed home. No matter how we've tried, we too have failed to earn our father's love. "What about me?" Your father has a party planned for you, too.
Well, those are the early thoughts. Now I get to see where they go.
Pam in San Bernardino
Date: 3/10/2004
Time: 12:58:32 PM
I am the prodigal returned. For many years I lived out of state, only returning for Christmas (and not always that.) When I did come home, my Gram would change all her plans to be with me. My sister, on the other hand, was there -- week in and week out. She helped Gram with her shopping, cleaned her house, and did all those little things that family do for each other. And I received glory. For what?? Just becasue I dropped back into her life for a few days? Well, after fifteen years of being broken I finally returned home with my tail between my legs, and my head hanging. They had a party, just as the prodigal father for his wayward son. And all I felt was guilt. That is, until I talked with my sister about the entire situation. Much to my amazement, she too was happy I returned. And she never resented the times Gram honored me and ignored her. Would I have been so gracious? I'm not sure. But through her love and acceptance I was able to come home, heal, and thrive. I'm not sure if I'll be able to preach this story, but it will be in my heart no matter what sermon finally comes out.
Thanks to you all for always sharing. I am ever grateful for your open hearts and honesty. C2 in WS
Date: 3/11/2004
Time: 11:30:26 AM
This parable is better titled, "the merciful father" rather than "the prodigal son."
Both sons were rebels. One openly rebelled by leaving; the other rebelled in his heart by staying and working. Both sons thought they could merit grace.
But the father shows great mercy and love to both sons, regardless of their rebelliousness. Point: If an earthly father could be so loving and accepting, how much more your Heavenly Father?
Luther in IA
Date: 3/12/2004
Time: 8:34:57 AM
The problem with famous passages is that both the preachers and the hearers so easily brushed it aside and won't let the text speak to our hearts.
v.1-3 set the context for the Prodigal Son parable; in this context there is no doubt that Jesus was referring to the older son as the Pharisee and the Scribe. In that spirit, perhaps it's not a stretch for us to identify with the religious leaders and the religious people; because that is who we really are today. If anyone are upset about it, let's point out to them this is part of the "manure" we learned from the previous text in Like 13.
With the context set like that, I would like to focus on just the punch line at the and, where the father responded to the older son: "Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. But we had to celebrate and rejoice, because this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found."
First, the status of the older son was confirmed. Jesus called them "Son of the Father." Sometimes we unfairly judged that because religious people are rigid, that they don't really belong to God. Some goes as far as condemning the Jewish for not understanding the grace of God through Jesus. Even the Pharisees and the Scribes grumbled against Jesus, He was gracious is his dealing with them. Somewhere else Jesus gave them a harsh sermon of seven woes, but not in this occasion. He went as far as confirming that "you are always with me", present tense. He saw their hearts of zeal for God. (Side note: it's not the Pharisees who killed Jesus, it's the Sadducee. We know of at least two Pharisees dissenting in the mob trial, Nicodemus and Joseph Arimathea; later on it's the Pharisee who argued against the Sadducee on the resurrection in Acts, and set Paul on a hung jury...) They may be misguided, but no one can accusing them of not passionate about God.
Second, they are under-privileged. They didn't know that "all that is the Father's is also theirs". Earlier, the resentment was not having even a young goat to party with friends, and the accusation was "you have never given me". Yet, but in the mind of the father, he couldn't give what had ALREADY been given to the older son. Could this be the case when we developed our theology in a way that we were boxing God out?
Third, the remedy was rather simple. The father not only invited the older son to celebrate and rejoice but also stressed, "it is necessary" (active indicative verb there). Rejoice is the inward state, and celebration is the outward expression. My wife complaints about my somber seriousness all the time. When was the last time I celebrating joyfully? When it comes to Lent, are we also equally seriously somber without any joy? Perhaps, if I celebrate enough, the younger son wouldn't see the family as boring and wanted to leave in the first place.
However, the cause for the celebration is not to keep the younger son. The cause was the occasion for the return of the prodigal son itself. The older son may be with the Father but he missed the Father's heart. He would rather celebrate (same Gk. word) with his friends rather with his own brother; rather rejoicing in the ordinary than the extraordinary. Today, we would probably spend more to celebrate fellowship rather salvation. Am I missing such occasion as well? Will I be able to see the work of God and not complaining on the details of dirty carpet, messy parking lots, and other mundane thing?
Father God, it is so easy to work the field, and obey your commandments, be prudent, and still miss your heart of the matter. Help me to see the same way you see, and love the same way you love.
Coho, Midway City
Date: 3/12/2004
Time: 10:13:18 AM
Coho;
I am so glad that you share your wisdom and your heart with us here. WWhat you said reminds of somethng I once heard David Buttrick (professor of Homiletics at Vanderbilt and author fo the book "Homiletics")say about this parable- that everyone has been forgiven and yet no one has really repented
grace and peace;
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 3/14/2004
Time: 10:17:47 AM
When I went to college, my parents did not interfere with my life there. Frankly, I didn't think about them too much in an average month. I was doing my own thing there at college. Phone calls were reserved for truly important things. When I went home on spring break, winter break, etc. my mother always had my favorite meal cooking as I walked in the door, there were fresh sheets on my bed in my spotless room, and my own fresh towels in the bathroom. She bought my favorite drinks and a fresh box of my favorite breakfast food was on the shelf. She had a neat pile of local newspaper articles she thought might be of interest to me stacked on my desk. Dad got tickets to my favorite dinner-and-show theatre and reservations to some event they knew I would love, and we all went together. She and Dad made sure I felt welcomed. They did this for all 4 of their children every time we came back from any extended time away. You should have seen the effort they put into Christmas and Thanksgiving after we were all grown up! I would have felt awful if I had decided to take this family time to go to Florida with my pals or to just go hang out with my hometown friends. A child of any age coming home from anywhere is a reason for a parent to rejoice and to put on the dog, as we say in my neck of the woods.
Date: 3/14/2004
Time: 8:00:30 PM
Hi, I will be in the pew again Sunday. I need to hear this story of the son who returns home after messing up. I have done the same. Deep down I think I believe God has forgiven me, but deep down inside there also lurks a nagging feeling that I just can't quite get back "home" to God. Sarah McLachlan's recent song "Fallen" finishes with the line "And there doesn't seem a way to be redeemed." That is exactly how I feel! I suppose many of my pewsitting friends feel the same - if only we could do something to earn our forgiveness, we suppose. You know we can't, so maybe if you hold before us the image of "the waiting Father" something will finally click in our thick heads. And be sure to remind us that some of our elder bothers and sisters will not be pleased that there is a way for us to be redeemed. So it has always been.
Fallen - Sarah McLachlan
Heaven Bend to take my hand And lead me through the fire Be the long awaited answer To a long and painful fight Truth be told I tried my best But somewhere long the way I got caught up in all there was to offer But the cost was so much more than I could bear
Though I've tried I've fallen I have sunk so low I messed up Better I should know So don't come round here and Tell me I told you so
We all begin out with good intent When love is raw and young We believe that we can change ourselves The past can be undone But we carry on our back the burdens time always reveals In the lonely light of morning In the wound that would not heal It's the bitter taste of losing everything I've held so dear
Though I've tried I've fallen I have sunk so low I messed up Better I should know So don't come round here and Tell me I told you so
Heaven bend to take my hand I've nowhere left to turn I'm lost to these I thought were friends To everyone I know Oh they turn their heads embarrassed Pretend that they don't see That it's one wrong step one slip before you know it And there doesn't seem a way to be redeemed
Though I've tried I've fallen I have sunk so low I messed up Better I should know So don't come round here and Tell me I told you so I messed up Better I should know So don't come round here and Tell me I told you so
Thanks for preaching
pewsitter
Date: 3/14/2004
Time: 8:49:26 PM
Dear All-
In preparation for preaching on this famous parable, I am compelled to return to Robert Farrar Capon for the interpretation that so surprised and enlightened me when I first discovered him 10 years ago (many years too late!)
I heartily recommend Capon to anyone who dares to look at the Gospels from an often unconventional but always faithful vantage point. He is an Episcopal priest who writes is very entertaining, as well as challenging and provocative. I don't always agree with his take on things but he ALWAYS persuades me to think outside the box and challenge my preconceptions.
I saw him referenced for last weeks parable and I'm glad I'm not the only one to find him helpful.
In addition to dozens of others which I am slowly making my way through, Capon has written three books specifically on the parables in the 80's: The Parables of Grace, The Parables of the Kingdom, and the arables of Judgement. But they have recently been combined into one book called- Kingdom, Grace, Judgement: pradox, Outrage, and Vindication in the Parables of Jesus.
I have taught classes on the parables and preached on them several times over the years and people are always intrigued by his ideas - they teach and preach well, also by inviting people to consider different takes on such well-known stories.
While I would caution against adopting Capon's theology exclusively - especially when there are so many relevant and faithful interpretations available, for anyone who is not familiar with him, he's definitely worth a look.
Anyone have any other favorite parable resources they'd be willing to share...?
Chris in Limbo
Date: 3/14/2004
Time: 9:38:59 PM
We know this parable as one of the best-loved stories in the Bible, and it is, to be sure, truly heartwarming. Who doesn't like a good story about a family reunited? It's a universal phenomenon, and movies are made and books are written with derivations of this very theme!
BTW: I disagree about whoever said in "Homiletics' that no one repented. The son did! The son came back - remember "repent" is to turn around. It's just that the way he came at it wasn't as noble as feeling guilty about all the bad he'd done, but rather because he'd lost everything and had nowhere else to go.
Still -- I'm initially more drawn to the first two verses: the part about the Pharisees and scribes criticizing Jesus for eating with sinners and tax collectors. Jesus uses this parable to illustrate that fathers (good ones, anyway) want to eat with their children who return home. Yet, I'm thinking about the Pharisees & scribes.
It makes me ponder all the people we criticize for hanging out with the wrong crowd. It reminds me of being in high school and being afraid of getting too chummy with anyone nerdier than I. It reminds me of being the one who someone else is afraid to associate with lest they, too, be considered to have those traits they don't like in me.
Sally in GA
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 5:15:25 AM
When I was in grade school, we were members of a congregation in a very conservative denomination and a very conservative town. We were taught not to sit at table with anyone not of our specific denomination. We were taught not to pray with anyone not of our specific denomination. The people at the other significantly-sized church were taught the same. We were taught this on Sunday, and we all ignored it the rest of the week. The small size of the town meant we could not avoid one another, and, as I remember my father saying, "Jesus ate with the tax collectors, and I'm not supposed to pray with my own family because they don't go to this church? That's just not right."
Michelle
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 6:56:40 AM
This son didn't sin in the usual sense of the word - theft, blasphemy, etc. What he did was walk away from his father, believing he could make it on his own, which is a sin of pride, even arrogance. (Isn't that the starting point of most sin? We figure we're too clever to be found out). When reality set in and his pride got a good hard kick in the pants, he moved back. The biggest lesson he learned while on his own was that without his father he was nothing. This reminds me of Jesus' words we use at Communion - apart from me you can do nothing.
What I notice about this son is that he returned to his father BEFORE he had sunk into sin in the overt sense. Before he stole in order to eat, before he slaughtered one of those unclean pigs, he went home and faced the music with Dad, got the slate clean and started over. There is always another chance before we teeter off the edge. Thank you, God!
The Weekend magazine that comes with my Sunday paper had an article about soldiers whose faith has been deepened by the bad things that are happening on the battlefields. I guess that's nothing new, but it's when we're at lowest ebb that we know we are no good on our own. We need God.
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 6:57:04 AM
Chris in Limbo,
You made me take down my copy of THE RETURN OF THE PRODIGAL SON by Henri Nouwen, a meditation on Rembrandt's painting. Great gospel. jrbnrnc
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 7:48:15 AM
I'm going to be preaching at another congregation (same denom) - this particular congregation is closing the doors of its church, which I know must be a very sad time for them. They are merging with the congregation I serve (if all goes right), and I've been planning to preach a sermon I often use, in various permutations, as a "first sermon" of going to a new congregation. It's aobut the woman at the well and called "Can We Gather at the River," and talks aobut the woman's empowerment and Jesus' overstepping the bounds of a proper Jew in at least 5 different ways, to talk about living water.
So ... with that said, I'm thinking that this pericope also applies, though it's one I'd be more inclined to preach to the existing congregation, and about their accepting people unlike themselves in some way. But I'm churning over the idea of preaching this from the "empowerment" standpoint:
The son returning home. The sinner, the tax collector, returning home. Eating not just at the family table, but being the guest of honor at a banquet. I'd have to be careful not to communicate that they're somehow sinners returning to "home," the existing congregation. That's NOT what I want to communicate.
But something along the lines of "welcome to your new home." Does that ring a bell with anyone? Appropriate exegesis? For a change, I'd welcome advice.
Sally
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 8:19:31 AM
My reading on the Prodigal Son story: Parable by Jesus, based on Luke’s 3 pronged understanding of history: The father (Abba?) caring for the household according to cultural norms: Youngest son has idea, he wants his own. A Description of life, away from home Comes back with idea as to how to survive. Father welcomes him back, but older son is appalled at the reaction of father, and refuses to participate in party. The father says, “son, I know of your faithfulness, but we are celebrating the return of your brother, can’t you come and celebrate?”
Shalom
Bammamma
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 8:20:49 AM
Sally,
I wouldn't use this Luke 15 parable for the closing church - even if I succeed in sheding a new understanding on it, it will be just way too hard to break through the existing stratification regarding this parable and how it used to be understood.
If John 4 works for you previously in the same situation, why risk losing?
Coho, Midway City
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 8:56:51 AM
The returning son has NOT repented. He has squandered his portion of the inheritance and realizes that he's in no better a position than the pigs he's feeding so he figures he'll go to his father's place as a servant, they get treated better than he is now. He's still out for himself, still concerned about his own skin, getting food into his own belly. He hasn't repented! Right from the beginning of the story he's only concerned for himself and continues to be right to the end. I don't think the point of the story has anything to do with the son's waste or his return but of the father's forgiveness and welcome with open arms and the gracious love that's totally undeserved.
Somebody mentioned Father Capon, and I've got a quote from him about the other brother:
"In Jesus' parables he normally uses images of separation (such as outer darkness) but in one parable he uses present images for hell, and that is the parable of the prodigal son. At the end of the parable Jesus brings on the older brother; Mr. Responsibility, Mr. Complainer, Mr. Grouch, Mr. Resentment for anyone he ever met. But where is he when he starts complaining? He is at the party, right outside the house in the courtyard. And that is where he is standing when the father goes out to plead with him. They are in the midst of the party. The father is the Christ figure in the parable. This is nothing other than the descent of Christ into hell. The older brother is in hell already. He is in the hell of his own bookkeeping, when the father in the parable has cancelled all bookkeeping on everyone."
Shalom
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 11:37:11 AM
Sally, How 'bout "Welcome to your TRUE home"? The one who returns is not the same one who departed, nor is the home the same, or going to stay the same as the family who is abiding is transformed.
MrBill in MI
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 11:46:50 AM
Someone asked for more parable resources. Kenneth Bailey's Poet & Peasant and Through Peasant Eyes (Eerdmans, reprinted 1999) is a wonderful cultural/sociologial study of Luke's parables, and has a great section on Luke 15. Enjoy!
RevPiper in Alaska
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 12:10:04 PM
Does anyone find anything pertinent about this being Laetare, also known as "Mothering Sunday" in Great Britain, in regards to the sermon?
Nigel
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 12:10:12 PM
Does anyone find anything pertinent about this being Laetare, also known as "Mothering Sunday" in Great Britain, in regards to the sermon?
Nigel
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 12:10:16 PM
Does anyone find anything pertinent about this being Laetare, also known as "Mothering Sunday" in Great Britain, in regards to the sermon?
Nigel
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 12:21:38 PM
Sorry all, I have no idea why my browser loaded my message 3 times.
Nigel
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 12:29:21 PM
The fourth, or middle, Sunday of Lent, so called from the first words of the Introit at Mass, "Laetare Jerusalem" -- "Rejoice, O Jerusalem". Mothering Sunday, in allusion to the Epistle, which indicates our right to be called the sons of God as the source of all our joy, and also because formerly the faithful used to make their offerings in the cathedral or mother-church on this day. This latter name is still kept up in some remote parts of England, though the reason for it has ceased to exist.
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 12:41:52 PM
Sally, you are joining new people with your congregation. Why not just make it a joyous celebration of welcome? They ARE home, because they are in the Lord's House!
I can't really see a parallel between this and the Prodigal son, except this: that boy didn't get to just sit around and feast on the fatted calf the rest of his life. He had work to do! The older brother didn't get to mope around all year because things weren't the way he wanted them. He had work to do! Together, they got it done, to the honor of their loving father. New members or long-term members, forever faithful members or back after a long absence, they are all on the father's needed workers list. So, let's get crackin'!
KHC
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 12:54:29 PM
Sally, a little more... if you are "merging", then it is two equal groups. Otherwise, one group is "taking over" another, which is probably not the climate you want to live with. No mother hens collecting her chicks under her wings here! I wish you all the best in this. It has worked remarkably successfully in a church near here - and they are ready to merge with yet another church very soon. Same denomination, but with each of the 3 churches with its own traditions and gifts to offer - all have been added to the mix because long ago they gave up the idea that this was "their church" and they were in charge. Good for them!
KHC
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 2:52:06 PM
Hey there --
I've been doing a lot of OT preaching lately and haven't kept up as well on the gospel conversations.
One of the most amazing pieces of this story to me is not about either of the sons (though I surely do relate to the older one that stayed home and I'm sure that isn't a good thing) -- but it is the father.
While he was still off, his father saw him and ran to him and surrounded him with his arms and compassion. His father never took his eyes of the road. Never gave up on his son. Always waiting. Always with open arms. There is nothing in either life or in death that can separate us from the love of God ...
mm in pa
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 3:11:48 PM
To C2 in WS and the anonymous poster who both identified with the prodigal. This parable is a powerful story because it speaks to the one who has wandered away from God, lost everything, and yet finds God still willing to welcome him home. It also speaks powerfully to the ones God has led away from their places of comfort because there is the reassurance that Home is always there. Like many of my generation, I went off to college, got married, got a job, and never moved back to my hometown. Can I identify with the prodigal son? Not really. Oh, I'm homesick for my parents and my brothers and their families often enough and I look forward to the times my family and I can go home and be surrounded by the love there. The difference is that going home gives me the strength to go out again. It reminds me that my family is a part of me and that I carry them in my heart. Unlike the prodigal who threw everything away, I find that I have everything with me. That's one of the great things about family. It's one of the great things about grace too. It doesn't weaken. It's always there. I have to touch base with that HOME as well so it can remind me that I belong to someplace special, to SOMEONE special, and that He will be waiting to welcome me Home when my work is through and my journey's over. May God bless all of you. Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 3:55:37 PM
Hi Friends,
Out of commision for a while. Back to gain strength and wisedom from your thoughts. Daughter had a horrible scare in ICU for a week but is doing GREAT right now. May get a full 3 weeks in school. Praise God. She will turn 16 on the 27th and it is a great thing to celebrate. Just wanted to check in with you all and tell you that God's grace is abundant in scary places and I am excited to be reviewing this text with you.
Tammy in Texas
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 5:19:10 PM
Tammy - glad your daughter's better. We've missed you.
KHC, Coho, and Mr. Bill: thank you all for the advice! I decided to 86 the idea of this pericope, and it would twist a well-known interpretation of the parable. It's just that the new-to-us congregation is more "give testimony" about former drinkin' days, guitars and amplifiers, and the congregation I serve now is more "been in church my whole life and never did anything all that bad."
KHC - The blend won't actually happen until the end of June. But we're starting it bit by bit right now. My CURRENT congregation seems to want the blend, and it seems the other congregation does, too. I do have a hard time seeing (or hearing, I guess) the music situation. The CUMC folks, when we've had get-togethers with other UMC's for worship, often won't go to ROUMC because their music is "too loud." So far, I'm being pecked to death by ducks: people have come to ask me what to do with things like the copy machine and the phone tree machine, and where the new archive room will be. I'm like, "let's not put the cart before the horse!" *sigh* who was it who called me into this weird profession, anywhay?
Sally
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 7:37:54 PM
It always causes me to sit up and take notice, when someone makes a comment and Jesus says, "You know that reminds me of a story...."
Perhaps this is one time that re-telling the story might be just as effective. Perhaps through the eyes of someone who doesn't get heard much. Could be through the eyes of the Pig Herder, seeing this guy eating his slop.
Hearing this story differently might be how I have to go about it. I am so used to hearing it that I forget to listen (as I believe someone else has also said).
RevJohn in Juneau
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 7:41:00 PM
Thinking out loud again... as we struggle to say something "New" about this text, perhaps we just say the Old once again. I have noticed that Grace, just plain Grace, can preach pretty well. And in this world of pointkeepers, it is good to point out that we have a Point-less God. (Thanks Dan Erlander)....
RevJohn in Juneau
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 8:03:12 PM
The book I'm suggesting is not necessarily helpful for this week's parable, but since we are sharing resources (which I think is wonderful-give me tried & true and recommended by those "in the trenches" over just a slick jacket cover any day!)I would like to add another: Hertzog's "Parables as Subversive Speech: Jesus as Pedagogue of the Oppressed."
It's very different from Capon (whom I love - but he admittedly and unapologetically comes at the subject from the perspective of a "financially comfortable, old, white guy" theologian, mainly 'cuz that's what he is...) but gives an important voice to the issue of class and social setting, especially in terms of justice and liberation theology. It focuses on the brilliant work of beloved Brazilian theologian Paulo Freire, and I think it is an essential part of every preacher's library.
JM in IL
Date: 3/15/2004
Time: 11:16:39 PM
Sally, I would imagine that one passage that could preach in the merger situation is John 10.16: "I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd." A church merger can be a foretaste of that time when all of God's children will be united in service to Christ. Doug in IL
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 12:11:17 AM
Always some of my best parishioners would express their anger at the treatment meted out to the younger son. They identified totally with the older boy. And I could never shift them! As far as they were concerned it just wasn't fair. So they gave up altogether on this amazing story. I used to treat this as a forgiveness story but not any more. For me it is a "completion" story. The shepherd's flock was not complete until all hundred were back together (some shepherds might have settled for the reasonable odds of losing one out of a hundred - that's not bad going!). Then the woman with her ten drachmae, ten tiny coins. The other 9 were incomplete without that final one. There was an aching gap there. And finally this dysfunctional family with a dysfunctional father and two dysfunctional sons and not a wise woman in sight to help them muddle through. The father had purity of heart though: he willed one thing: the completion of the family. Not that he got it by the end of the story. One straying chick is no sooner under the hen's wing than another shoots off out the other side. You could call it Israel's whole history; or Jesus whole ministry; of the Creator's desire for all of Creation to be gathered unto its destined fulness, no bruised reed broken, no guttering tiny flame snuffed out and so on. With such a "wholeness" interpretation, you can lay aside problems of worthiness, unworthiness, and forgiveness. There's always something bigger waiting to reveal itself. (signed) Curious George
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 2:01:51 AM
As a couple 'posters' have indicated, I think the anchor point of this parable is the Father figure. In each of the lost and found stories, the focus is on the shepherd who searches for his lost sheep, the woman who turns her house upsidedown to find a coin, and the Father who loves both his sons. The focus is on the action of God towards us. It is God's grace that is central. Whether we are the son who is a waster, or the son who goes off in a huff, it is the Father who throws his arms around the returning son and kisses him. . .it is the Father who pleads with his other son to come in and join the celebration. Thank you for the many valuable insights. I am also finding it hard to let the text speak to me in fresh ways. I particularly identify with the second son. . .a perfectionist bent on proving myself to God and earning his love. It's a definite dead end trail. Nouwen's book is a gem. A Canadian in Scotland.
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 6:12:58 AM
I'm always struck by the words of this week's psalm and its description of the benefits of confession. I was beginning to associate that with the younger son, having changed direction, now moving on the road toward the father, rather than away. The point, though, about whether he's actually repented is a great one--what I'm seeing is that even if it's just self-interest that gets us to change direction, by God's grace that can be enough.
I'm teaching an Inquirer's Class, running through the basics of Wesleyan theology. This story is such a good example of the workings of grace. Those of us who have struggled with addiction of one sort or another know that we often only turn around because of the intensity of our pain, the mess we get ourselves into. But then the grace of God works on us some more and transforms even our repentance. That's how addicts end up saying they're grateful for what drove them to God. I think it's ok that the younger son was headed home because of his empty stomach; it at least put him in the right place to be available to his father. God can take even our lamest stab at willingness, and if we'll keep being willing, grace will indeed make us new creations.
Laura in TX
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 6:51:09 AM
This son was probably considered a "throw-away" by his society's standards. He had wished his father dead (by his bold request for what his father would have left him upon death), and dismissed everything his father had taught him: the Levitical laws about clean vs. unclean, and honoring one's parents; also what the Proverbs had taught about laziness, greed, keeping company with the wrong crowd, etc.
As a response to this treatment, the father completely throws away all expected Eastern decorum, running (RUNNING!!!) to his son, forgetting what has transpired before and grabs his child in a hard embrace, puts the heirloom jewels in his hands and brings him into the house. When the lad deserved a lecture worthy of Ward Cleaver, he got nothing but unrestrained and pure love. The father was willing to endure whatever others might say about his conduct. It didn't matter to him that his son had buried him before he was dead and had danced with pigs. He loved this lad with a love that only a real father - or mother - can know. It actually feels more like a grandparent's love, since there is no judgment, only love.
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 7:22:14 AM
I have a mom's quote book that I got for Christmas, and the quote for this week is, "An ounce of mother is worth a pound of clergy." It's a Spanish Proverb, apparently.
Yes, I know it's a father in the story, but I was thinking about the Pharisees and the rules and all that not being able to compare with a parent's love for a child...it's as simple as that. I started to get all complicated with this sermon, but I think that God is calling me to preach the very simple message that none of us hear enough...that GOD LOVES US BEST. Peace, Beth in GA
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 8:00:14 AM
Sally;
Just a thought on what you're going through- those darn ducks are not only "putting the horse before the cart", they're also "putting the coarse before the heart."
Maybe the same could be said about the older brother in this parable.
On another matter- I have heard of an interpretation where Jesus is the Prodigal, perhaps by Karl Barth- is nayone familiar with this? Like the rest of you, I am looking for new ways to come at this very familiar story.
Oh, and if you don't have a copy of Nouwen's "Return of the Prodigal Son" you need to get one!
Praise God it's still early in the week!
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 8:01:38 AM
The story is usually described as being about the prodigal son and is often given as an example of repentance, it is actually a story of how God forgives and heals the unrepentant sinner. This story is Jesus' answer to the Pharisees who ask why he welcomes tax collectors or other unrepentant sinners, and even eats with them. Jesus portrays the prodigal as the greatest possible sinner. He committed what to the Jews was the worst possible crime, to treat the father of the family as if her were dead. It was inconceivable for any Jew to ask for his father's inheritance while his father was still healthy (let alone spend that inheritance in a Gentile, pagan land). In all of Middle Eastern literature from ancient times to the present, there is no case of any son, older or younger, asking for his inheritance from a father who is still in good health aside from this story.
This story is sometimes read as if the prodigal had a change of heart while in the "far country," and planned to ask his father to make him a "hired servant" as a gesture of repentance. Scripture scholarship, however, indicates that the prodigal's motive at this point is more likely self-interest. Although the words of his prepared speech sound like repentance, he composes them after observing that he would get a lot more to eat if he were back in his father's house. The ruined and desperate son heads home not because he is repentant but because he is starving. The story never suggests that he has had a change of heart; only a change of diet. He is still the same schlemiel of a son who comes scuffing up the road to the homestead. The son regrets that he has lost all the money he got from his father, but it is unlikely that he has yet repented of breaking his father's heart.
Another indication of the prodigal's lack of repentance is found in a phrase in the story. While the son "was still a long way off," the father saw him and ran out to greet him. The words "while still a long way off" are not meant to indicate the son's geographic distance from the father, but rather his emotional distance, the son's hardhearted lack of repentance.
The father offers reconciliation to his son before the prodigal has truly repented and without even first asking for a change of heart. Later the father will forgive the elder son before the elder son repents. By arguing with his father in public, the elder son puts a break in the relationship with his father that is nearly as radical as the break between the father and the younger son at the beginning of the parable. Yet the father will love the unrepentant elder brother and promise that, even if he doesn't come to the banquet, "Everything I have is yours."
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 8:59:44 AM
Coho, Midway City nails this passage.
An illustration in reverse may be the movie, "Green Mile". I watched it again last night and noticed how God's grace was limited in the "Christ Figure" on Death Row. (what's his name?) If you ended the film with the healing of the women with a tumor, it would pass for pretty good theology. Not only is God's grace at work in this man to heal but also to feel the ugliness and pain of the world in his own body. The director couldn't bring him/her self, though, to include in God's grace the two people who were also in need of healing: Percy the prison guard who wanted to see horrible deaths and the murderer who killed two little girls for sport.
The whole idea is repelling not only to the director but to the Pharisees as well.
Steve in KS
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 9:08:58 AM
To two anonymous posters who say the son was not repentant/neither son was repentant, but the father forgave and embraced and welcomed anyway, I say thank you. In this church I serve there are too, too many who believe that without repentance there is no chance of forgiveness or return. I say the father will be merciful to whomever he chooses to show mercy, and we might just all be surprised when we take our place in heaven and see who else is there. You should see their faces when I say I'd like to spend some time in heaven with Judas because he fascinates me. They don't think Judas had a prayer of a chance of going heavenward (although he repented!) and now they're getting concerned about me, I think.
KHC
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 10:56:38 AM
KHC Have you heard that the monies (30 pieces of silver) could have been a negotiation between Jesus and he, to give to the Chief priest, so that he would be able to confront them, but for Judas it was too hard for him to take. That others in the early church so disliked Judas for following this directive that they portrayed him as the "betrayer."? As a mother, I have often wondered about Judas's mother, as I have wondered about other (what I call) the scapegoats of society. I'm with you. Thanks for your post.
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 10:58:54 AM
KHC.
The "he" I was refering to was Judas.
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 11:11:08 AM
SOme More early thoughts;
The father is watching, waiting, more than likely he had to spend some time outside of the house doing this (the mission of the church is in the world, not in the church!)
The father doesn't even hear the younger sons canned speech- he is already too busy celebrating-by offering a meal, the son is immediately taken back into the family. The two preceding parables are about things that have the power to return when and only when someone looks for them- the crazy shepherd and the obviously obsessive-compulsive housewife-is one lost sheep as valuable as 99 safe and sound?-is one lost coin worth as much as nine others (after all a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush). We would probably say no.
So let's just satisfy the people who are already in our churches (who wonder why fewer and fewer people are at church and complain when the pastor spends time with someone who is not already a member).
Maybe we need some people who aren't afraid to extend hospitality to those who either return or those who come for the first time. Maybe we need to learn how to really welcome people instead of, "oh, you're here."
Maybe we should eat with sinners-but people would talk. Case in point-there is an Alcoholics Anonymous group that meets here (which is unabashedly Christian).Last year, I put the schedule for the meetings in the bulletin and the newsletter. You would have thought that I had said nasty things about Jesus, God, and motherhood. The attitude was that if anyone Needed AA, they could find it on their own, being that kind of people. I have started meeting with the AA group (and one of the participants in that group has started coming to church and is not the least bit ashamed to say that he's in AA) and no one seems to say anything about it.
I htink we need to move form an attitude of friendliness to the actions of hospitality.
grace and peace;
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 11:28:43 AM
Another possible way to "refresh" this story is by making an unexpected tie to another story. We have two brothers: the older one tied to the land, the other prone to the wide open spaces. The older one is disappointed that his efforts are not more appreciated, while the younger one has the flashier story to tell. The older son complains to the father, and thinks having the younger son gone is not such a bad idea. The two brothers' names? Cain and Abel!
Since the two sons are not named in the parable, these are the names I will give them. I imagine it will be difficult for those long-time members who never left to cling to the self-justification of the older brother/Cain; while having the younger brother/Abel back and living will be a cause to rejoice! And the Father's grace shines even more, because it is still the Father's choice to love them both.
OLAS
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 12:16:50 PM
Barbara Brown-Taylor, in the 3/11/98 Christian Century, really goes with the communal spin revgilmer and others have mentioned, using the context of table fellowship. She paints a picture of Jesus sitting down to eat at the Huddle House (here it would be Luby's) with "an abortion doctor, a child molester, an arms dealer, a garbage collector, a young man with AIDS, a Laotian chicken plucker, a teenage crack addict, and an unmarried woman on welfare with five children by three different fathers." Then the ministerial association comes in for lunch and can hardly eat for how offended they are by Jesus and his company. "Doesn't he know what kind of message he is sending? Who is going to believe he speaks for God if he does not keep better company than that?"
With both brothers, God goes out to meet each one and try to get him to come inside. And I strangely find both brothers inside of me, working against my relationship with both God and the people around me who offend me. Both of those need to be reconciled, and Paul reminds us that God's the one who does it. We just have to agree to come home and join the party.
Laura in TX
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 12:24:09 PM
In the epistle reading in 2 Corinthians, Paul tells the church, "We're Christ's representatives. God uses us to persuade men and women to drop their differences and enter into God's work of making things right between them." (The Message) This is called a ministry of reconciliation. In other words, the church is to be like the loving father in the parable of the wasteful son who saw in his son NOT A SINNER, but a missing child that left a hole in is heart that only this child could fill, instead of being like the pharisees who emphasized the differences in status among members of the community and were put off by Jesus' selection of table guests. Do our churches grieve the loss of those persons in our community who do join us at the communion table? Do we see everyone as family? How big is our welcome circle?
Many years ago a peer told me he loved to use the children's sermon to explain reconciliation: "I usually give all of the kids a penny. Then I ask them if they'd let me give them a quarter for that penny. That's reconciliation! Jesus giving us a quarter (at the cross) for our penny." Again, another peer was engaged in a conversation with some friends. "You are so kind and patient with people," his friends told him, "Where does your sense of grace come from?" "I make mistakes," he replied, "Why shouldn't allow other people to do the same?"
Reconcilation can only happen when the penny in me meets the penny in you. Someone recently said their are only two types of sinners: those who know they sin and those who don't. My sermon title for Sunday is "Table Sharing." Who do you eat with? revdlk in nebraska
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 12:25:45 PM
Hmm, I don't do sermon titles--I can't get them figured out until I'm finished writing, which is always way after the bulletin is printed! But if I DID do sermon titles, I would probably go with, "Come Home and Join the Party."
Laura in TX
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 12:30:12 PM
When I was a little boy. my southern momma told me that "I would get in trouble for telling stories." She meant"lies" of course. But Jesus got in trouble for telling stories, and acting those stories out, like hobnobbing and eating with the wrong kind of people. His opponents considered him to be "lying" about the way God is, and who God is. No problem, with welcoming the stray boy home. Everyone would understand that. But not to punish him! Even throw him a party! Whoa. that'a a lie. God is not like that. God is a God who has to punish people. And, Lord knows, we deserve to be punished.
But Jesus presents a funky view of a God who will not punish. Again, as a child I got started to church late (around 11). But I was prepared for the God I heard about. Because I had seen Captain Kangaroo, and God was like him. Wasn't long, I heard about another side of God. I knew about him, too. He was like Moe of the Three Sttoges. Cross Moe, get him mad, and he would poke you in the eye or bop you on the head. He could punish you and how. And God was said to be like this too. So what do you do? Live on edge with a schizophrenic God?
What if God is like the Captain and Moe, but God made a decision to slap himself (in the cross of Jesus - foolish sounding but Paul called it foolish)? It's not that we goof balls, like Larry and Curly, haven't fouled up the works and made him mad. But what if God said this slapping you is stupid; I'm gonna slap myself once and have done with it. No more punishment. I'm out of the punihsment business.
You mean Jesus said God is out of the punihsment business. Right, and people said tht was a lie. You mean there's no punihsment? Anybody can do anything and there's no punishment. There is a certain punihsment. It's the pigsty, or penthouse, or whatever - it's life away from home, life away from the father. It's this meessed up world and souls in it who will not come home. There's hell her and maybe hell later, but God does'nt have anything to do with that. He's out of the punishing business.
What God will do is welcome you home, throw a party, if you will come back.
But the elder brother thought there ought to be a little punishement meted out. I'm the elder brother. I know a lot of people I think God ought to punish a little. It's hard to accept that the punishment got meted out on the cross.
So, the parable offends. It seems like Jesus is telling a whopper. A dangerous one too. There's got to be more to it than God exhausting his wrath on himself in the cross. If that's all there is too it, people will keep wasting their lives and some of us will keep being mad that God won't kick ther rear-ends.
RH in Alabama
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 12:40:27 PM
revgilmer in Texarkana,
Yup, I heard that interpretation that Jesus was the younger son who went to a distant country (humanity) before in my one of my classes, and since my professor loves Karl Barth, this may have been from KB.
However, in order to make that connection, "and there he squandered his property in dissolute living" in v.13 have to be understood as "there he scattered thoroughly the substance of him living extravagantly" (rough Greek rendering); which could be interpreted as Jesus squandered God grace on us while He was here.
In addition, there will be exegetical difficulties in v.17-19. Even we can make a case for Jesus sinning against the Father since He took on the sin of the world, it very hard to imply that Jesus action as going against the will of the Father in the first place.
Finally, even though the older brother is still the Religious of the days, the "prostitutes" in v.30 will have to be explained as pointing to us: the sinners, or Gentile pagans.
It's doable, but a lot of exegetical acrobatic will need to be done as well as skillful delivery will be needed. And therefore I wouldn't recommend it without any safety net either. Use it in a less than forgiving congregation, or without favorable circumstances and injuries might happen to us.
The Cain/Abel angle from OLAS's post could be just as brilliantly fresh, fitting with the general exegetical context, and not as dangerous if we fail.
With all due respect to bammamma, I think it's extremely dangerous for us to pursue speculative theories outside of the written text.
Coho, Midway City
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 1:49:23 PM
16 MAR 04
I'm familiar enough with our standard defintions of "repentance" (note that it's not re "Penitence") but in the three "finders-keepers" stories in Luke 15, the fact is, the first two "items" especially (coin and sheep) can't do a thing to be found. And this son is interupted--right before he gets to the "earning/pay back" part of his rehearsed speech and the Father reinstates him fully not as slave, but son. Could make the case that the rejoicing takes place and surely includes the rejoicing of this forgiven son who didn't--indeed, COULDN'T--imagine that great deal the father would give. Still, to round it out I surmise that he apprehended or affirmed or "accepted" this wonderful gift, and was a full participant in the father's party. Peter in WI
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 1:50:26 PM
Thank you to everyone who has posted this week. My sermon title is: "which brother are you?" I identify with the older self righteous brother. In real life my brother was an alcholic living on the beach in Hawaii. I stayed home and became a Pastor and yet, my parents loved us just the same.
I was a definite "point - person" and luckily my parents were "point -less."
In honor of that, maybe this weeks sermon will be pointless!
Ed in MN
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 4:12:34 PM
Some years ago my mother and a friend of hers really worked with a woman who came to the church, who was on drugs and alcohol. They managed to help her get her life on track, although she had one relapse. Well, one day my mom was substituting as the church secretary. This lady came in to help with a luncheon the church women were doing. The women in the kitchen told her they had plenty of help(which was a lie) and that she was not needed. Her heart sank. My mom talked to her and said, "You wait around until after the lunch is over. They will be tired and need help with dishes. Go in and ask again and I bet they will welcome your help." Well, the lady went in as my mom suggested. And you know what? That group of Pharisee women lied again and said they had all the help they needed. Here was a prodigal daughter, whom they rejected! How many of our church people are like this? PH in OH
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 4:21:19 PM
bammamamma, no, I hadn't heard that possibility before. What I have heard is that - historically - the chief priest was in cahoots with Rome in the sense of wanting to keep his job. Pilate, or Caesar, could have yanked him out by his jewelled breastplate if things didn't stay calm in Jerusalem. And, Judas was looking for anything but calm in Jerusalem - he wanted a revolution on the streets. So, Jesus stood in the way of both of them, and thus was the plan hatched to rid the world of Jesus.
Anyway, my little aside has nothing to do with this week's text, so I'll close. But thank you for sharing your post. Interesting thought.
KHC
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 4:33:53 PM
To Steve in KC His name is Coffee, John Coffee.
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 5:11:02 PM
C2 in WS - preach it, if you can. Personal stories are always the best. And thank you for pointing out to us the role of other people, Christians, in helping people accept God's forgiveness.
DGinNYC
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 5:53:15 PM
The fatted calf caught my eye. As many posters have said, the father was waiting and waiting for the son to come home and went running to him when he saw him coming. That fatted calf didn't just happen; those animals were reserved for esteemed company. But I believe the father was fattening up that calf because he just knew the younger son would "come to himself" and return home. What a beautiful image of Jesus who waits for us to "come to ourselves" and return home to his grace.
I have been in conversation with numbers of individuals who wasted years on hard living and returned home; I am one of them. I am also in conversation with those who sit in the pews and "always have." They don't like the new parties that are being held these days; i.e. contemporary singing/guitars/possibly drums. If only we could all "come to ourselves" and remember how much Christ gave so we all could dance.
May God's grace be abundant as we seek to bring his word. pbetty in ny
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 7:21:18 PM
I'm working with the title: "Sins of Good and Evil" to locate the distance ALL of us put between ourselves and that Prodigal (i.e., Extravagant) Parent --and each other.
I'm in a Lenten series on the Wesleyan Way of Salvation. 1. Prevenient Protection of a Mother Hen 2. Another Chance with a Gracious Gardener
Now this.... The Porch or the Party?
John Wesley's model of the House of Salvation used the Porch as a place of Prevenient Grace, the Threshold or Doorway as the place of Justifying Grace, and the whole Interior as the place of Sanctifying Grace.
This profligate and patient Parent spent a fair amount of time on the porch, watching for the wayward one, or cajoling the recalcitrant one. The hope was that both of them would come home and enjoy the party going on inside!
As Rev. Karl Kumpf once preached it: Why don't you come on in and let yourself be loved?!
Where did Jesus learn to eat with sinners? His prodigal father taught him! "Christ invites to his table all who love him, who earnestly repent of their sin, and seek to live in charity with their neighbors."
Come, sinners, to the gospel feast! Let every soul be Jesus' guest. You need not one be left behind, For Christ has bid ALL humankind.
YellArose!nTX
Date: 3/16/2004
Time: 7:31:56 PM
Does anyone have the quote from (I think) "Raisin in the Sun" where the compassionate Mama asks her "good" kid to quit harping on the struggling one. She says something like: "Why do you keep talking about how bad he is? When was the last time you cried for that boy?...."
Seems like she models the same parenting style as the Father here -- reconciling the lost one to herself, and giving all her young-uns the ministry of reconciliation.
When the jealous brother complains about "that son of yours," the patient father restores the relationship by replying "this brother of yours...."
Roberta Bondi uses the model of spokes in a wheel to say that in our drawing nearer to God (the hub) we must necessarily also draw nearer to each other. Refusal to love our siblings hinders us from approaching God.
YellArose!nTX
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 3:38:25 AM
Hi,
I have tried to force myself to be creative, as I have thought about preaching from the text of this well-known story about the Father who loved both sons. I may not use this in the sermon but am sharing for consideration the idea of approaching it from the point of view of the “Prostitutes and Pigs.” The wild son spent money on the prostitutes and fed the pigs, so each got something from him. In my mind neither knew him before he came to them, and neither really cared when he left to go home. Do we waste our spiritual, mental and emotional resources on prostitute-like-vices such as beer, cigarettes, and too much sugar? Do we feed the pigs of environmental pollution with gas guzzling vehicles, and wasteful use of natural resources? Are we any different from the wild son?
When I share this with a preacher friend, she replied that “feeding the pigs of environmental pollution” reminded her of something her 5 year old brought home from Head Start. It had to do with a character named "The Energy Hog." The idea is that whenever we leave lights on unnecessarily, etc., we feed The Energy Hog, and he loves it! The idea is to teach kids NOT to feed The Energy Hog.
Leon in NC<><
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 7:20:33 AM
This parable is about the Divine Love of God which does not let us go even after we have squandered our inheritance and find ourselves covered with dirt in a pigsty. It is grace that brings the young man back home "he came to himself."
What stricks me is that the young son was full of willfulness in the beginning - demanding, desiring to be independent, desiring to be free. It is only after his experience does he show signs of willingness - desiring to confession, willing to do anything, even be a hired hand, etc.
The elder son never is able to free himself from willfulness - refusing to come into the party.
The father - is full of willingness - as he waits with tears in his eyes for his son to come home.
What I want to know? Where is the wife and mother in the parable?
tom in ga
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 9:09:02 AM
Who would the wife and mother represent in the parable? The father is God, the prodigal son is the wayward person who returns to find grace, the older brother is the staunch and ever faithful person who works hard to do what is expected and gets huffy when he doesn't feel quite so chosen after all. Where would a wife and mother fit in? Just curious.
KHC
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 9:41:16 AM
Ther is a very funny song in the Gilbert and Sullivan operetta The Mikado sung by the Lord High Executioner "They'll none of them be missed"
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As some day it may happen that a victim must be found, I've got a little list--I've got a little list Of society offenders who might well be underground, And who never would be missed--who never would be missed! There's the pestilential nuisances who write for autographs-- All people who have flabby hands and irritating laughs-- All children who are up in dates, and floor you with 'em flat-- All persons who in shaking hands, shake hands with you like that-- And all third persons who on spoiling tête-à-têtes insist-- They'd none of 'em be missed--they'd none of 'em be missed! CHORUS. He's got 'em on the list--he's got 'em on the list; And they'll none of 'em be missed--they'll none of 'em be miss'd!
There's the banjo serenader, and the others of his race, And the piano-organist--I've got him on the list! And the people who eat peppermint and puff it in your face, They never would be miss'd--they never would be miss'd! Then the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone, All centuries but this, and every country but his own; And the lady from the provinces, who dresses like a guy, And who "doesn't think she dances, but would rather like to try"; And that singular anomaly, the lady novelist-- I don't think she'd be missed--I'm sure she'd not he missed! CHORUS. He's got her on the list--he's got her on the list; And he don't think she'll be missed--he's sure she won't be miss'd!
And that Nisi Prius nuisance, who just now is rather rife, The Judicial humorist--I've got him on the list! All funny fellows, comic men, and clowns of private life-- They'd none of 'em be missed--they'd none of 'em be missed. And apologetic statesmen of a compromising kind, Such as--What d'ye call him--Thing'em-bob, and likewise--Never-mind, And 'St--'st--'st--and What's-his-name, and also You-know-who-- The task of filling up the blanks I'd rather leave to you. But it really doesn't matter whom you put upon the list, For they'd none of 'em be missed--they'd none of 'em be missed! CHORUS. You may put 'em on the list--you may put 'em on the list; And they'll none of 'em be missed--they'll none of 'em be missed!
We all have lists like this, don't we?
In the book "Strange Highways" by Dean Koontz, one of the stories is about a man who has built a new house, and when he is alone, there is a door that only he can see. He goes through, only to find that it leads down into darkness. When he meets the former owner of the house, he recognizes the evil man who tortured p.o.w.s in Vietnam- and the door appears- so he has the man look behind the door and then pushes him down the stairs-and doesn't open the door until the screaming stops. A business associate, who wons the lease on their restaurant comes by, and once again raises the lease to much more than the building is worse-and the door reappears (you can probably guess what happens)
then the main character takes stock and begins to worry-what if he has an argument with his wife- or one of their kids- and the door reappears. So he decides to make a list of those that he would push through that door. It has been years since I've read that story, but the last line is chilling "The list is longer than I thought"
All of which is a very long way of saying that we need to be careful when we judge the pharisees and the elder son (or the church ladies) because we share some of that same darkness. That kind of humorless person is less attractive than the profligate younger son.
Still, maybe we need to cut him some slack-like his father did (does)
One more thought, taken from Nouwen's book "The Return of the Prodigal Son" after we have discovered the parts of us that are the younger and the elder brother, and have accepted the Father's love, then what's next? Nouwen says our final thing to do is to become like the Father (this may speak to me because I turned fifty back in August)"Be yoe compassionate as your heavenly father is compassionate"
grace and peace;
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 10:35:27 AM
KHC asks:
"Where would a wife and mother fit in?"
It is simply a curiousity. Is the waiting father a widow? Are the children without a mother? Is she in the house beseeching God to return her son? (Like the prayers of Monica for her son Augustine). Is the father raising these boys by himself?
Ths parable written in a patriarchal society, has really no interest in the mother, yet I think in her absence or her obsurity she is an important player in this drama.
tom in ga
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 11:47:42 AM
What do we expect?
A marvellous image of expectations: The younger son expects to find "true life" and "freedom" away from home; yet comes to realize that he always will be somebody's servant; on his way home he merely hopes for bread and shelter; how much more does he receive!!! The older son expects security in staying home; safety in staying with the father; he probably also expects to inherit the whole property once his father is gone, "it's gonne be all mine!" Later, when the younger son returns, he expects "fairness"; he probably senses that it won't be all his after all; again: how much more he receives! His new fear is: I will have to share; whereas the father says, "All that I have is yours." The father seems to expect the younger one to come home, at least he is hoping for it (he is on the lookout). He expects the older son to join the party, the celebration. His expectations for a "homecoming" includes both.
Great message!
Germanpastor in California
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 12:42:32 PM
Others have commented on which brother they relate with, well so will I. I relate with the younger brother, as I am a recovering alcoholic and drug addict. I relate to the utter despair the younger brother must have felt. The wonders and joys of God's grace are seen in this parable and my life as my sobriety date just happened to be the 22nd anniversary of my baptism. I get chills every time I think about that... and I remember those words which were spoken over me, "child of God, you have been marked with the sign of the cross and sealed by the Holy Spirit forever."
Some people like to talk about the second step of AA in terms of Came... Came to... Came to believe... I am think of changing this a little to, Came... Came to... Came to know... I will relate this to both of the brothers.
The younger brother (YB) in verse 14 "Began to be in need" the Greek is "ustereisphai" it also means "to come short of sufficiency" The YB came to a place in his life, which was painful; full of disgrace and shame. Everything in the story up to verse 14 brought him to this place, the place he had came to be living in... a Jew, living in a pig sty and wanting to eat that which he was feeding the pigs. He was worse off than the pigs.
In verse 17, YB, "Came to himself" we might say that he came to his senses or the such, but he realized that living in his father's house, even as a slave, was better than living in the place he was. (I would rather be the doorman in the house of the Lord than to dwell in the house of the wicked) Whether, "I will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son; treat me like one of your hired hands." is repentance or self interest is not important, what is, is that the YB came to himself and in doing so decided to go back to his father.
In verse 22 the YB came to know his father, came to know his love, mercy, and grace. To know the heart of his father and how dear the YB is to his heart. In verse 22, we come to know our heavenly Father and the awesomeness of his grace.
Now the Older Brother's (OB) story mirrors the story of the YB, slightly changed of course. Verse 25, "Now his elder son was in the field; and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing." The OB came and approached the house and everything else in the story comes with him. His staying and working. His being obedient. His brother's leaving and all that it entailed. The father's love and grace and his resentment towards this love and grace. All of this baggage came with the OB as he approached the place life had brought him to.
In verse 28 the OB "Came to" came to a place of anger, resentment and defiance of the father's love and grace. Self-justification is running rampant: it's not fair!!!
In verse 31, the OB also comes to know his father, in a way he has never before known. "Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours." Here the OB knows (finds out) that everything that is the Father's is his. This must be shocking because, for it was the YB not the OB that treated his father as dead. The OB comes to know that his father's house truly is his home and the Father tries to welcome him there.
I have always pictured Jesus telling this parable as a joke in which everyone thought they knew the punch line. For what are you to do with a disobedient son who is a drunk and carouses with prostitutes: a son who is stubborn and rebellious? Deut. 21:20-21 "They shall say to the elders of his town, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard." [21] Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid." The punch line to the story should be: "They stone him" but instead its kill the fatted calf, go get robe and ring. Who changed the story? Thanks be to our awesome God.
Grace and Peace, Badlands Paul
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 1:08:01 PM
This reminds me of a conversation I had a while back with an Islamic Palestinian woman. We spoke of our respective religions. I asked her what Islam taught about forgiveness. She said that the Qur'an said that when we turn toward Allah, he walks toward us. When we walk toward Allah, he runs toward us. When we run toward Allah, he flies toward us.
I am unable to find the citation for this, but I love the image of God who requires only the slightest movement on our part to come to us with his forgiveness.
Lurker Beth in California
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 1:21:32 PM
Looks like Tammy's been there and done that. Out of ICU. Welcome home. Let's throw a party! You know better than most what the father and the Father feels like.
Joe (here because I've been asked to preach this Sunday, and I'm not a preacher!!)
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 2:06:37 PM
Someone was asking about a speech given by “Mama” in Lorraine Hansberry’s “Raisin in the Sun”. This is a little more of it; “There is always something left to love. And if you ain’t learned that, you ain’t learned nothing. Have you cried for that boy today? I don’t mean for yourself and the family ‘cause we lost the money. I mean for him: what he been through and what it done to him. Child, when do you think is the time to love somebody the most? When they done good and made things easy for everybody? Well then, you ain’t through learning-because that ain't the time at all. It’s when he’s at his lowest and can’t believe in hisself cause the world done whipped him so. When you starts measuring somebody, measure him right, child, measure him right. Make sure you take into account what hills and valley he come through before he got to wherever he is.”
SOmetimes the love of God is so beautiful that it almost hurts to look at it.
grace and peace;
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 2:43:46 PM
I use this discussion board as a resource to help prepare me for teaching my "Sunday" school class (which meets on Wednesday mornings). I get SO many ideas from all of you, and one way or another, they end up being discussed in our class. We had one of our most free-wheeling and invigorating discussions this morning. I wish you all could have heard it.
One class member recounted the story of when her now adult son ran away from home. And how did you greet him when he returned, we asked. We pretty much took up where we left off, she said, and life went on. Well, somebody else said, about the family that was giving a party upon the return of a local teen-ager who had run away with someone she met on the internet: no party for her...she'd have her butt burned if she were mine!
We love the idea of the forgiving Father: we can do nothing that He wouldn't forgive! How we aspire to be like Him, but when it's one of ours, can we ever learn to follow Jesus' lead? Is throwing the party easier said than done?
A pew-sitter who looks to you guys for help and inspiration
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 2:50:03 PM
As many posters here have pointed out - Curious George, for one - this parable is challenging for the dutiful types of our churches. This is in keeping with the context - Jesus is telling it to the Pharisees and scribes. I am thinking of preaching that our call as the church is to imitate the father. Love the dutiful and prodigal as the father (Father/Abba) does. Jim in CT.
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 3:27:53 PM
-Joe
Funny, seems like 4 years ago I said almost the same thing.
Welcome to the other side of the pulpit.
tbowen in Ga
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 8:49:11 PM
Sally,
I've been slow to read any of this for a few days, but your post got me thinking, and if it isn't too late, I have a thought.
You could preach a parallel parable. You could speak to the congregation members as the faithful, dutiful, older son, only more faithful than the one in the story, because they stayed in the mission of the Father while others seemed to run off and not return, while others died off and were not replaced. They remained faithful while it seemed hopeless to "keep the farm."
Now, it appears as if the farm is lost. The Father seems far away, even from the faithful. It is as if the rain has stopped falling and the fields are parched and dry, and only the hardiest remain. Now we sit for one last contemplation on what has been, before we pack up and leave. We wait only for the last truck to move the last of us away.
Now, we hear the truck coming around the corner. Tears fill our eyes as we lament the passing of this mission. We expect the Father to tell us that it's time to go, that there is no more that can be done here. We expect him to say that we didn't do a good enough job, that we failed to thrive where we were planted.
But the Father does not scold. Instead, the Father says, "Well done, good and faithful servants. Now, let us kill the fatted calf. Let us feast and celebrate, for we are adding another field to the homeland!" We may be leaving the building, but we remain in our homes. The mission of Christ will continue in this community because of your faithfulness. The two congregations will be strengthened in one another, because it is the most hardy who remain. The mission will grow, and in that, we rejoice. The Father is pleased to keep you in the party, while you move to a new (earthly) home base.
After all, Christ is our home, and that will never change.
--Just some thoughts...
Michelle
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 10:14:47 PM
Michelle:
Wow!
Coho.
Date: 3/17/2004
Time: 10:19:46 PM
Steve in KS,
"The Green Mile" was broadcast this past Monday night where I live (Chicago area). I hadn't realized before seeing it that it was a Stephen King story. You wrote that "the director" couldn't bring himself to include Guard Percy and Wild Bill, the child-killer, in God's grace, but it was King who created John Coffee as the Christ figure--yet almost the Christ of Revelation rather than the pre-Crucifixion Christ.
Coffee was able to bring healing to Edgecomb's (Tom Hanks' character) bladder infection, Mr. Jingles (the mouse stepped on by Percy), and Warden Moores' wife, who had the inoperable tumor, because they were, in some sense, "innocent souls" (remember that especially good things were said about Melinda Moores at the picnic table discussion of Edgecomb's plan to take Coffee to Moores' house). However, Coffee meted out a just retribution to Percy and Wild Bill, because, as he said several times, they were "evil men" (seeming to indicate they were irredeemable). (Remember that as Coffee was being taken to the Moores' house, Wild Bill, who was thought to have been drugged senseless by Edgecomb, grabbed Coffee's arm, and in that transaction didn't receive any healing, but instead communicated to Coffee what he had done to the girls and how.) Beyond that, though Coffey's death didn't cause Wild Bill to avoid death, Coffey--who was innocent of the deaths of the two girls and yet had been convicted for them--died taking Wild Bill's sin on himself. "Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By a perversion of justice he was taken away....For he was cut off from the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people." (Is. 53.7b-8) The end of the film was interesting, too. Edgecomb showed his friend from the nursing home the aged Mr. Jingles in the little cabin in the woods and told her he himself was over 100 years old. He attributed that not only to his having gotten an extra lease on life from Coffee's healing touch--a positive reason--but also to his needing to pay a penance for not having worked for Coffee's release once he knew the truth of what had happened to the girls. But then, Coffee told him that by killing him, he would be doing Coffee a favor, since his hypersensitivity to sin in the world was, I believe he described it, like shards of glass cutting into his head. (Could that have been Jesus' experience, too, while he was in the flesh? Could God's experience of sin be described that way?) I don't know that any of this can be used in reference to this week's lection, but "The Green Mile" certainly is a theologically rich story!
In terms of the Prodigal Son story, it is important to note that the younger son DID make repentance. That's what "coming to himself" was all about. He recognized that he had messed up, and he was going to confess his sin to his father, but the turning towards home WAS the repentance (or, "turning around"). What is interesting is that he believed that, perhaps after a bit of begging on his part, his father would not condemn him but would at least show him the mercy of allowing him to work as a slave on the family estate. It appears that he did not even consider the possibility that his father would NOT receive him back on some terms that would be beneficial to him. He just didn't realize that the terms would be as beneficial as they turned out to be.
Doug in IL
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 3:34:18 AM
Joe,
I am not a preacher either. I am an Associate In Ministry in the Lutheran church who has been blessed with congregations who allow me to use my greatest asset..my by loud mouth. My experience is that they will not expect you to be anything but yourself. Share from your heart and the message that God gives you and you can't go wrong. I certainly have a bit unconventional styal..I am very conversational when I preach, but it works for me because that is me. Be yourself and let the spirit run wild! Will say extra prayers for you this week!
And by the way..we are having a party. Kelly (my daughter) is turning 16 on the 27th so we are having a big bash.... Hope you will celebrate with us.
This parable is about the grace of a loving father on two sons who don't quite get it. Oh how I have felt that grace, cause trust me, I don't get it!...
Gods grace to all of you tammy in texas
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 8:11:51 AM
One of the questions raised was one of true repentance. Was the son really sorry or did he just realize how pittiful his existence was and so decided to go home? Luther argued tha question against the church of his day. You had to have a truly contrite heart. Luther held that often repentence begins with simply recognizing the consequences of what we have done. What has always struck me is the running out to meet the sone even before he gets his confession out of his mouth. three years ago I began the Brief order for confession in our service and read the quote that we do in the Lutheran book of Worship from 1 John "If we say we have no sin..." and then I went straight to the absolution without time for confession.
I wanted people to hear the words of forgiveness as pure grace. We don't have to do anything, even say the right words. The love of the father is so overwhelming that the forgiveness precedes the confession.
What happeneed was that everyone got really nervous through the beginiing of the service until I could talk about what happened in my sermon. so eveeryone listened. Mspastor
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 9:15:30 AM
Thanks to "Lurker Beth in California" for a great illustration. I love the image of God always coming to us faster than we go to God.
It reminds me of the prayer in the Lutheran tradition, "God, you are always more willing to listen than we are to pray...."
I am so blessed by all of the sharing in this forum.
Ed in MN
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 9:18:01 AM
We all know about assumption. When we ASSUME we usually make an.... well never mind....
Here are two big assumptions in the story.
1) The father began fattening the calf in preparation of the younger son's return. While the elder son ASSUMED it was being prepared for HIM, perhaps for his wedding feast someday.
In the same way, we "faithful" often assume that the privileges of salvation, church membership, etc., are for US, and we resent it when they are "wasted" on the lost ones.
2) The younger son ASSUMED that he would be received back into the father's household as a slave, a servant, or a hired hand. Yet he received a roast, a robe and a ring.
He returned home hoping to find mercy and relief. but instead he found forgiveness and acceptance.
I wonder how many times people initially return to God for one reason (Fear of Hell, punishment, guilt, etc.) and in the end find much, much more - forgiveness, life, joy, purpose, acceptance, belonging.
Ken in Avon, IN
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 9:18:18 AM
We all know about assumption. When we ASSUME we usually make an.... well never mind....
Here are two big assumptions in the story.
1) The father began fattening the calf in preparation of the younger son's return. While the elder son ASSUMED it was being prepared for HIM, perhaps for his wedding feast someday.
In the same way, we "faithful" often assume that the privileges of salvation, church membership, etc., are for US, and we resent it when they are "wasted" on the lost ones.
2) The younger son ASSUMED that he would be received back into the father's household as a slave, a servant, or a hired hand. Yet he received a roast, a robe and a ring.
He returned home hoping to find mercy and relief. but instead he found forgiveness and acceptance.
I wonder how many times people initially return to God for one reason (Fear of Hell, punishment, guilt, etc.) and in the end find much, much more - forgiveness, life, joy, purpose, acceptance, belonging.
Ken in Avon, IN
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 9:22:42 AM
Sorry for the double post.. I figured out why....(if any one else hass this problem)
The submission confirmation screen says you can't read your submission without hitting "refresh" but when you do it resends your information again. This is because after submitting your comments you must hit "submit" then move to the bottom of the confirmation form and hit "return to form" BEFORE you hit "refresh" or else it will send your comments a second time. I guess it only takes some us us a few tmes to catch on!
God bless all and have a wonderful Sunday Service!
Ken in Avon, IN
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 9:53:45 AM
As usual, I'm off in a different direction than the rest of you -- at least at this point. One of the hymns suggested for this text in the UM Worship & Music Planner is "Sunday's Palms Are Wednesday's Ashes" (found in The Faith We Sing). I was intrigued by what this hymn has to do with the pericope so I looked it up. The result is that I'm connecting the parable to the hymn through the idea of the "prodigal" celebrating his freedom until there is nothing left to celebrate with the Palm Sunday crowd's celebration turning to the ashes of human failure when it comes to the all the teachings of Jesus that are mentioned in the hymn. In the parable, as in the hymn, we are reminded of the times we all "go astray" and of how God's grace covers us when we return, seeking forgiveness.
Early musings for me...
Robbie in Kansas
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 11:56:02 AM
I think I am going to focus on the idea that the "title" of this parable is one giving by redactors long after the writing of the Gospel, and we just "assume" (there's that word again) that it refers to the younger son. But "prodigal" just means wastful and extravegant, and that could also refer to the elder son. He was "wastful" with the constancy of his father's love: not really feeling or appreciating it, rather laboring under this sense of duty that made him the "good, responsible, deserving one" and not celibrating the gifts and grace of his father's love as something that is just given, grace that should never be taken for granted, something that can never be earned.
When his brother comes home, he feels resentful that his father displays such love and forgiveness on someone who has proved irresponsible and undeserving. We focus on the sins of the younger son so much that we forget the sins of the older one - sins that are not as dramatic, perhaps not as obvious and easy to recognize because we just see him as being jealous and spiteful (understandable, because most of us can identify with how he feels.)
Yet how often do we forget that judging the worthiness of another is something that even Jesus wouldn't presume to do - leaving that for his Father. How many of us forget that worthiness has nothing to do with the love and forgiveness of God in the first place...?
The idea of score keeping is a difficult one for us to resist because our society promotes it so well. Even in advertising: "Don't you deserve...?" "Aren't you worth it...?" "You've worked hard all your life, now enjoy..."
So whose sin deserves more attention from us, the son who was willing to accept his father's forgiveness even though he was sure he didn't deserve it - and was willing to put himself in a situation where his older brother might have been his (probably very uncharitaable) "boss"? Or the brother who, having always had his father's love and taken it for granted because he felt he deserved it, and was more than willing to deny it to his brother, even though it was not his to deny?
I guess I'm rambling now, but I have a feeling that for every younger son in our society, there are about 10 older ones, and I'm betting that God's heart breaks just as much or more over those of us who are willing to feel "holier than thou" about our brothers and sisters, than those of us to are brave enough, or even desperate enough, to return to the Father in humility.
I don't have as much trouble with whether or not the younger son "truley" repented. repented just means to "turn around, change your course" and that's an ongoing endeavor. So whether the repentance was complete or "real" at the time of his return seems rather a mute point, especially sinse the father didn't seem to think the reason for his lost son's return was important enough even to hear before he lavished his love and forgiveness on him.
Waddayathink...? Chris in Limbo
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 12:31:45 PM
Hi all, been feeding myself, my soul, with the wonderful discussion taking place this week.
I have need of some help from any of you who are country music fans (I'm sure there has to be some out there!)
There is a new song out about a boy/man who grew up feeling alone and wanting love from his father and says to the father, with open arms, "I love you this much . . ." and then sees the crusfix (sp?) at his father's funeral and has the insight of Jesus holding open his arms and saying to him "I love you this much . . ." Anyone know the name of the song and the recording artest. I may hear it before Sunday but . . .
Thank you in advance! Shalom, Rev. Nancy in NE
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 12:57:16 PM
I've not been following the lectionary all through Lent, but this one fits in with what I am doing - the 7 words from the Cross. We just did the thief asking Jesus to remember him and Jesus promising paradise. The thief never confessed to Jesus, just asked to be remembered. Jesus never demanded a confession, just promised closeness to him after this life. The thief was dying for his crimes, he was paying the price. Now it was time for peace and hope. The son in the parable had paid the price for his crimes against his father and his faith. Now was the time for reconciliation and peace. There was no need to confess in the eyes of his loving father in order for the son to receive something wonderful and totally unexpected.
My sermon title is "He asked for this ('this' is contained in a star) and he got THIS ('THIS' is contained in an exploding celebration sunburst in bright joyful colors.) God gives us better than we ask for and certainly better than we deserve.
KHC
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 12:59:50 PM
Nancy, I typed "I Love you this much lyrics" in the address bar, and found what you're looking for.
Michelle
I Love You This Much Lyrics by Jimmy Wayne
He can't remember The times that he thought Does my daddy love me? Probably not That didn't stop him From wishing that he did Didn't keep him from wanting Or worshipping him
He guesses he saw him About once a year He could still feel the way he felt Standing in tears Stretching his arms out As far as they'd go Whispering dad I want you to know
[Chorus:] I love you this much And I'm waiting on you To make up your mind Do you love me too? How ever long it takes I'm never giving up no matter what I love you this much
He grew to hate him for what he had done 'cause what kind of father Could do that to his son? He said 'damn you daddy' The day that he died The man didn't blink But the little boy cried
[Chorus:] I love you this much And i'm waiting on you To make up your mind Do you love me too? How ever long it takes I'm never giving up no matter what I love you this much
Half way through the service While the choir sang a hymn He looked up above the preacher And he sat and stared at him He said 'forgive me father' When he realized That he hadn't been unloved Or alone all his life His arms were stretched out As far as they'd go Nailed to the cross For the whole world to know
[Chorus:] I love you this much And i'm waiting on you To make up your mind Do you love me too? How ever long it takes I'm never giving up no matter what I love you this much
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 5:09:29 PM
Hi,
I'm a Parish youth ministries coordinator from Beenleigh, Queensland, Australia (right near the Gold Coast for those who know it). I'm not preaching on this stuff, but I'm running two lenten programs (one for grade 8's who are 12-13, the other is mostly 15yo) and I'm attending one for young adults myself. On Wednesday night we had a diverse discussion about this Gospel in the young adults group that I attended, one that I felt that I had to share.
We had some very interesting questions leveled at us: Who do we identify with in the story? Are there other experiences that this story reflects? How do we think the story ends? Would this story be very different if one of the characters had been female? How do we feel about the family portrayed in the story, what would it be like after the party?
Indeed there were some interesting answers. I want to share some of the comments.
It was noted that what ever each son had done, there was nothing that could be done that would have made them "less than" or more than who they were. Neither son was perfect, but both were received with love. This also takes a stab at the purity laws of the Jews at that time, which the leaders of the community commented on, shortly before the parable. This has links to Matthew 15:10-19, that it is not what goes into a person, but what comes out of them. What implications does this have for us as a church and community? For me it reminded me of the "Catholic's Returning Home" program that is running in my parish, which embraces those who have left our company and wish to return and find out about where we as a church are at.
That the younger son sounded like a person who has an addiction (possibly even a mental illness), who comes home to borrow some more cash to get a fix/needs a place to crash went other welcomes are worn out. That this is a pattern that may have been repeated many times before the son realised what was happening and how far he'd fallen. A young man shared his experience of this.
Having worked in child protection, I wondered about the future stability of the family. I have seen children and young people who have been removed from their parent's care, to be received home to a big party, but after a honeymoon period they returned to out of home care, because the daily realities of the situation were untenable. I wondered how the family dealt with the issues that tore them appart in the first place, what changed not only for the younger son, but the whole family, to repair relationships. One must assume that the son had a reason for leaving beyond just having a good time, to have asked for his inheritance, thus consider his father dead, there must be more to the situation (it may have been an extreme response to a situation, but there must have been something to cause this, disagreement with the father or the brother?).
We noted that when asked about who we identified with, we always talked about the sons, but never the father...at different times we identified with different sons.
We talked about the nature of inheritance, with some people having experienced their parents asking them to put coloured dots on things they wished to inherit after their family had passed on. There was also discussion about people changing wills to include or not include family members due to family break down and disagreement.
Most felt the gender of the characters made little difference in the modern era (it may not have been accepted in Jesus' time), but they had expected the role played by the father, to be done by a mother.
There was much more said, but these are some of the points raised. I suspect that the same issues will not be raised with the younger groups I minister to, but I hope they are of use to others. The questions are certainly food for interesting discussion!
Terri from Oz
Date: 3/18/2004
Time: 9:58:41 PM
Speaking of lyrics...I remember hearing a song on my favorite Christian radio station that contained the words, "Sometimes I'm the prodigal, sometimes I'm the other brother..." can't remember the rest...seems like the song also spoke of God's love as "you always have, you always will..." Can any of you fill in the gaps? KO in SC
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 1:13:17 AM
To LB in MN from last week's discussion. I posted an idea from Robert Farrar Capon and you were asking for details. He has written a trilogy of book about the parables ... parables of judgment, parables of the kingdom and parables of grace. The three book are available in one volume published by Eerdmans titled 'Kingdom Grace Judgment.'
Grace and Peace
Rev Ev in UK
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 4:09:23 AM
Thanks for the great discussion this week.
I'm beginning to put things together and wondering about the word 'coming' that someone else mentioned
Coming to his senses and coupled with that - How do we receive, accept ourselves ?
Coming home (to God) ... and how does God receive us ?
Coming back (to the church) ... and how does the church receive us ?
Especially, how does the church receive the one who has left the church and is returning ... and maybe this has happened not once, but many times ?
This Sunday is Mothering Sunday in the UK, so the idea of returning to 'Mother Church' is a good one.
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 4:10:00 AM
Sorry, forgot to sign
Rev Ev in UK
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 7:22:02 AM
From David Buttrick, on the parables [paraphrased memory of my conversation with him some years ago] -
notice the words of the father - "All I have is yours" - this isn't just a comforting comment!! In that moment the Father is rescinding his ownership of the other 2/3 of the family farm, and placing himself [very King Lear, here] at the mercy of the older brother who so deeply resents him - he has delivered himself, devoid of all help, into the hands of his eldest son, entrusting his care and support for the rest of his life to him.
We must remember that the parables were not happy, entertaining stories - they were intended to make their first audiences say "WHAT??!!??" at various points - when the younger son returns - muttering his self-serving get-home speech all the way down the road - and father RUNS to him - "WHAT??!!??"
when older son demands some recognition out of feelings of jealousy, resentment or neglect, and Dad says "Okay, take everything from this moment on" - "WHAT??!!??"
Note that now Older Brother is in the same place as Younger Brother was at the beginning of the story - he has received his inheritance." [DB]
There is another school of thought that asks if the redaction in this was an attempt to contrast the previous holders of the treasure [Pharisees etc.] with the now-excluded from Jewish tradition and membership upstart-Christian sect. [I prefer not to go there.]
Also like the image of the son right outside the party and Father going to him to try to bring him back - not unlike an image of hell proposed by on of my instructors at the College of Preachers in Washington DC [fabulous place, try to go if you can!] "Hell is like a child's birthday party - the one where somewhere in all of the excitement and rough-housing one child hits another with a toy truck and makes them cry. The supervising parent is likely to say something like, "No cake and icecream until you say sorry". Some children would say sorry out of a sense of having caused harm - some out of a desire for cake and icecream - but some - there's always one! - refuses to say sorry at all, stubbornly, and unbending to authority, takes their place standing in the corner. Every once in awhile the supervising parent cruises by the corner with the question "Are you ready to say sorry now?" Some children would tire of their rebellion and missing the fun and choose to come out of the corner, while others, still wedded to their pride, would sullenly remain.
This then, is hell - it is not a place that God sends us - it is a place we choose for ourselves."
....his father came out and began to plead with him.
Kristine
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 7:29:31 AM
Just a last minute thought when we talk about returning to the father. This father is worth returning to; just remember that there are those in our congregations for whom that father image may not be a positive image, on account of abuse or neglect or emotional absence. Maybe that's why the video of Jimmy Wayne's "I Love You This Much" is the second most requested video on Country Music Television.
That may eb the point of the parable - here is a father worth returning to
grace and peace;
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 8:11:04 AM
I keep hearing the words of Jesus from last week, "Unless you repent" I so want to force repentance on this passage. A priest in my off-line chat group gave us a term "Imperfect contrition" yet that was acceptable to the Father. Repentance may have begun when the boy came to himself, but the real remorse must have come when he was embraced by the lavish love of the Father.
Also remember Mary Cosby of the Church of the Savior in Washington DC noting that the ring was the symbol of authority in business dealings. If so, The father gave that irresponsible spendthrift the check book. Wow jrbnrbc
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 8:18:14 AM
Not that I am in any position to argue with David Buttrick, one of the greatest authorities on preaching, but I have to take issue with the idea that the older son has just received his inheritance from the father. I see it as "You live with me. You eat the same food I eat, sit on the same furniture, have income from the same harvests, etc. I have withheld nothing that you need from me. There's not one thing in my possession I have refused to allow you to freely use. It's already just as good as yours, even though it's still got my name on it." Sort of like God's command to have dominion - we have full access to the earth and all its resources and blessings, but we can never truly forget it belongs to God.
When my dad made out his will, he was very specific that certain things went to certain children. I know the walnut dining table is "mine". I can eat off it when I go visit. I can polish it, put things on it, admire it. I can put in MY will that it next goes to Gertrude or Hermione. But it's still Dad's until the sad day comes when I have to let him go. The fact that he keeps referring to it as "_____'s table" means nothing right now.
KHC
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 9:23:02 AM
KHC - I beg to differ. Verse 15:12 states specificall that "He devided his property between them." That's one of the problems with the older son being so whiney about everything "You never even gave me a goat...yadda, yadda." He may have been living as though his father was still the "Master" of the house, but that was in function only. The Father treated both of his sons equally when he divided the property between them and basically committed what Capon calls social "suicide" because the bequeathing of property ONLY happened upon an elder's death.
If we want to push the rediculousness of the older son's attitude even further, we could complain that he shouldn't have accepted his share of the inheritance if he thought it was such an abonmination, (perhaps he did refuse it) but we are not told that he did. But at this point, I think we are spliting non-existant hairs if we remember the purpose of the parable. However, I think the fact that the Older son DID, in fact, get his share at the same time as his brother is significant!
Chris in Limbo
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 9:24:07 AM
Maybe you're thinking of George Buttrick as the preaching authority?
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 9:54:19 AM
Chris in Limbo,
Thank you for pointing out the verse about the division of property, and I agree it gets down to splitting hairs. However, while I see that it says the father divided up the property between his sons, that would mean that the father now had nothing. Was he now living in that house at the mercy of his older, stay-at-home son because son now owned everything that little brother didn't take? It would seem that there was something besides house, furnishings, land and livestock that the father had set aside as his sons' inheritance - something more precious than the ordinary stuff of that day and time. Otherwise, Dad became a mere tenant on his own (former)property, rather than the master of his household. The older son, as owner of all that remained, would then be able to decide who got a party in the house, when the fatted calf would be slaughtered, etc. It was all his, and father was overstepping his bounds with these festive plans of his.
The bulk of the possessions remained under the control of the father, I think. Older son may have got some, but it was apparently not everything that was coming to him eventually. And the father knew he'd be around to get the remainder of the estate, unlike little brother with the big dreams.
Like you said, it's splitting hairs that may not need splitting. But these familiar stories have lots of meat in them to pick out. I like that 12 people can find 28 different things in the same story. The Spirit moves us all to interpret, but doesn't mandate the interpretation.
KHC
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 9:54:49 AM
Chris in Limbo,
Thank you for pointing out the verse about the division of property, and I agree it gets down to splitting hairs. However, while I see that it says the father divided up the property between his sons, that would mean that the father now had nothing. Was he now living in that house at the mercy of his older, stay-at-home son because son now owned everything that little brother didn't take? It would seem that there was something besides house, furnishings, land and livestock that the father had set aside as his sons' inheritance - something more precious than the ordinary stuff of that day and time. Otherwise, Dad became a mere tenant on his own (former)property, rather than the master of his household. The older son, as owner of all that remained, would then be able to decide who got a party in the house, when the fatted calf would be slaughtered, etc. It was all his, and father was overstepping his bounds with these festive plans of his.
The bulk of the possessions remained under the control of the father, I think. Older son may have got some, but it was apparently not everything that was coming to him eventually. And the father knew he'd be around to get the remainder of the estate, unlike little brother with the big dreams.
Like you said, it's splitting hairs that may not need splitting. But these familiar stories have lots of meat in them to pick out. I like that 12 people can find 28 different things in the same story. The Spirit moves us all to interpret, but doesn't mandate the interpretation.
KHC
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 9:57:03 AM
Sorry for the double post. Sometimes my internet disconnects while I'm typing and I have to re-connect after clicking on Submit, and it submits a second time. Not intentional.
KHC
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 10:07:55 AM
the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly, bring out a robe--the best one--and put it on him; put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.
Interesting how this father would not listen to the confession and repentance that his son offered. He immediately set about to bringing that son back into the fold. Can't you just hear him saying: "Shh, now; I don't want to hear it. What is important is that you are home." What a prodigal (extravagant) father we have! Thanks be to God. May we be that example to those of our flocks who stray and desire to return.
<///>< pbetty in ny
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 10:47:09 AM
Was it Will Rogers who said: "When I was 16 I thought my father didn't know anything; but when I turned 21 I could believe how smart he had gotten in so short a time"? My children heard that so many times when they were growing up, they probably think that their father was the author of those words! (not those exact words, but I think you know what I mean) Could be appropriate for this periocope.
Neither son followed the 5th commandment (honor your father and your mother). The younger son by demanding his inheritance (considering his father as good as dead) and the older son through jealousy and self-centeredness and his manner of speaking to his father.
Thank you all for so many wonderful insights this week! <///>< pbetty in ny
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 12:29:47 PM
I've been pondering a peripheral issue. How do we as a congregation meet the CEOs(Christmas, Easter, and/or Occasions of importance, i.e., weddings, funerals) of the church? There are those who are estranged from the church that I pray will return. How will we as a congregation meet them? Unfortunately I hear some looking down their noses saying, “It was about time they let go of their grudges and returned”, or thinking “folks don’t treat me like that—and I’m here every Sunday”. I see this pericope as an opportunity for folks to reflect on the grace of God and how we can reflect God’s grace to those we will see in church in the coming weeks. God’s extravagant love and grace flows to and through us. We have the opportunity to express that love daily through our actions and our words.
Something completely off the subject: This week the obituary of 65 year-old man appeared in the paper…what caught my attention was the memorial: “In lieu of memorials, Mr. P asked that people practice a random act of kindness.” In this I read Mr. P. encouraging us to reflect the love of God --at the time of his death.
RJ in KS Flatlands <><
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 12:30:11 PM
"The Prodigal" Intro: I. The Prodigal Son II. The Prodigal Brother III. The Prodigal Father Conc: "We understand repent and be saved, but we have a tough time with forgiveness to the unrepentant, forgiveness for the unforgiving, and unmerited grace (a classic redundant redundancy)." DaRevUMCinSCIA
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 12:30:50 PM
"The Prodigal" Intro: I. The Prodigal Son II. The Prodigal Brother III. The Prodigal Father Conc: "We understand repent and be saved, but we have a tough time with forgiveness to the unrepentant, forgiveness for the unforgiving, and unmerited grace (a classic redundant redundancy)." DaRevUMCinSCIA
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 12:39:21 PM
I might be a little late and maybe somewhat off base with this but it is what came to me today.
The younger son did not realize that he needed his father and the same is true with alot of the world today. Many don't think they need God. Just as the younger son did realize that he did need his father, everybody will someday realize they need God. What if the younger son had not realized it in time and when he came home his father had passed away and he was at the mercy of his brother. There does come a time when it is to late to turn back to God. God does not die like I said the father could have done but we do and then it is to late to turn and come back to God.
What do you think? Am I way off base?
JWS
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 1:22:51 PM
Thank you all for a great discussion. I have finally realized that this is too much rich food for one sitting/sermon. The difficulty too is to turn the theme into psychology and suggest that we are "both" the younger and older brother, or we turn the whole thing into a moral teaching and suggest that the older brother should have recognized his need for God like his sybling.
So what I have decided to do, I think, is to simply tell the story, as though I was the Father. What I experienced, what my deep feelings were, and how I longed and yearned for both my sons. Isn't that, after all, who God is?
tom in ga
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 1:35:54 PM
tom in ga-- One of the most profound sermons I ever experienced was given by a beloved pastor who gave a 'first person' account as the father. I am still moved when I read the father saying "for this son of mine was dead and is alive again" because the pastor's voice quivered as he spoke it from his heart. Tears were in his eyes and I felt God's love surround me as I sat in the pew.
Shalom,
RJ in KS Flatlands
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 3:39:14 PM
So what is repentance? Is it what we do? And do we know our motives are pure? (Why did the younger son really return home????).
A friend confided in me how he had struggled in the past with pornography. It still rears it's ugly head once in awhile. He says though that he fears that if his wife were ever to die, that he would "go wild." He struggles with guilt over the fact his main motivation to remain pure is for fear of hurting his wife, and really wishes that his motives were "pure" in his desire to remain pure....he doesn't see himself as being very "good" in the whole matter.
I took the matter to prayer, and the lights went on. I went back to him, and said "Don't you get it? Your wife IS God's grace to you. He knows you would 'go wild' if it were not for you. He gave you the very wife he did in order to give you a reason to stay pure. He knows you struggle with this, and has provided the way for you to do what is right."
Jesus said that the one who loves him is the one who keeps his commandments, not who has nice feelings for him (hopefully some of these will be here). Our motives will always be mixed this side of Heaven. That is what Grace is all about....God makes a way, in spite of our motives! We're never going to work this all out, but GOD IS GOOD!!!
Northern Preacher
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 3:40:27 PM
So what is repentance? Is it what we do? And do we know our motives are pure? (Why did the younger son really return home????).
A friend confided in me how he had struggled in the past with pornography. It still rears it's ugly head once in awhile. He says though that he fears that if his wife were ever to die, that he would "go wild." He struggles with guilt over the fact his main motivation to remain pure is for fear of hurting his wife, and really wishes that his motives were "pure" in his desire to remain pure....he doesn't see himself as being very "good" in the whole matter.
I took the matter to prayer, and the lights went on. I went back to him, and said "Don't you get it? Your wife IS God's grace to you. He knows you would 'go wild' if it were not for her. He gave you the very wife he did in order to give you a reason to stay pure. He knows you struggle with this, and has provided the way for you to do what is right."
Jesus said that the one who loves him is the one who keeps his commandments, not who has nice feelings for him (hopefully some of these will be here). Our motives will always be mixed this side of Heaven. That is what Grace is all about....God makes a way, in spite of our motives! We're never going to work this all out, but GOD IS GOOD!!!
Northern Preacher
Date: 3/19/2004
Time: 3:42:00 PM
OK, I posted a duplicate, and look like an idiot....serves me right for not proofreading carefully....a subtle difference, but the second posting will make more sense....
Northern Preacher
Date: 3/20/2004
Time: 8:55:53 AM
Hi all.
To JWS, thanks for asking your very pertinent question. I was just reading something which discusses this (sorry, I forget what!).
The author's basic questions around this were, why do we think that the person who has died CAN'T turn to God? Where does this idea come from? Why do we think we have such so-called freedom in this life, but have absolutely none in the life to come?
I don't have an answer, for you OR for the other author. But I appreciated the questions!
I suspect that this particular forum isn't the best place for this discussion. Maybe we could move it to the actual discussion forum?
Rick in Canada, eh?
Date: 3/20/2004
Time: 10:16:18 AM
To me, this parable shows the importance of pure whole-hearted Love because this parable and all others are based on Jesus' words in Luke 16:13,
Luke 16 13 No servant [with sinful Hate in heart for one mixed with righteous Love in heart for the opposite other] can serve two masters
[as those of a pure heart of Love can love two opposite masters and in Love serve any two masters: saints & sinners: Luke 15:1-3, Luke 18:9; God & Mammon:Luke 16:8-9; God & Caesar: Matthew 22:21; The Good & The Evil, The Just & the Unjust: Matthew 5:43-48]:
for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
Ye [in your Love-Hate double-hearted attitude of mind] cannot serve God and mammon,
and based on what our Love should be: perfect whole Love for both pairs of opposites: Matthew 5:43-48. Ecclesiastes 3:1-8, 2 Corinthians 12:9-10,
which then shows that we are to repent primarily of the sin of hatred in our hearts for ourselves and for others, which sin of hatred is what leads us to then mis-do or over-do what we do. Acts 2:38-40. James 1:14-15.
This makes even more perfect sense when we realise that sin is the transgression of God's law of Love, 1 John 3:4, Matthew 22:36-40,
and therefore sin is primarily the sin of Hate in our hearts for ourselves and therefore for all others as ourselves. Mark 7:20-23.
As James says in 1:8: this double-hearted attitude applies to ALL aspects of life, since every aspect of life is described by words and their oppostes:
Therefore:
The pharisees were half-hearted: they loved themselves and hated the publicans and sinners and Jesus in general, and hated themselves as poor and loved themselves as rich in particular, and so with Hate derided and ridiculed Jesus for all the parables He told to them between Luke 15:1 and Luke 16:13. Luke 16:14
The sinners and publicans were half-hearted: they hated themselves and loved others.
The Younger son was half-hearted in many ways: he hated himself as poor and loved himself as rich; he loved himself and hated his father and his brother; he hated himself and his family and his race and his country and loved foreigners and so was a kind of Uncle Tom or Nigger-Lover. He left home in Hate. But when he came to whole Love of himself, verse 17, he was then able to return home with Love for his own family and to accept Love from his dad for himself, and was able to bear and handle his brother's hate for him. 1 Corin 13:8.
The Older son was half-hearted: he loved himself and hated his brother and so also hated his dad and strangers and foreigners. He stayed home but in the same sinful attitude of Hate in which his younger brother left home: so he was just as spiritually guilty of sin as his younger brother. This fact of HOW the older brother was just as g