Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 9:56:24 AM
karen carpenter
Date: 2/11/2004
Time: 8:03:13 PM
Herod a "fox"? Probably because Jesus likens himself later to a motherly "hen" gathering (with the usual difficulty that hens have with their offspring) her chicks. The fox goes for the most substantial menu item. Any other ideas from anyone?
I've just started preparing this sermon and would be glad of ongoing conversation.
Date: 2/23/2004
Time: 11:39:59 PM
I'm George and made the "fox" and "mother hen" comment. And I want to see if others are preparing now two Sundays in advance and how you do it. I'm working currently with theological students on "preaching - and living - the lectionary" and will encourage them to work within these pages and contribute to this discussion. Re fox and hen, is this a sample of the sharp humour of Jesus, assuming that he is accurately reported. The Gospels, especially the words attributed to Jesus, are by no means as artless as is assumed by surprisingly casual commentators. George
Date: 2/24/2004
Time: 11:18:22 AM
This might be a dumb question ... but why was Herod going to kill Jesus at this point in Luke? It seems all he's been doing is telling parables - nothing too outrageous yet. Beginning to muse ... HSinON
Date: 2/24/2004
Time: 3:09:25 PM
Welcome! Two weeks ahead is a great deal of time, we are pretty desperate here! Maybe a few can get started early. I would also direct you to a site called Sermonwriter and ask for a free trial. It is a good exegisical site.
according to the Interpretor's Bible, With in the ancient world, fox has a raige of possible meanings, its crafiness, its lack of strength, it proclivity for malicious destructiveness, and its intelligence.
Nancy-Wi
Date: 2/25/2004
Time: 8:38:23 PM
Jesus as a motherhen is a beautiful image. Why would people (of Jerusalem) turn away from it? Why would they want to kill one like that?
Maybe we reject even what is good for us.
RB In Canada
Date: 2/26/2004
Time: 8:15:17 AM
Jesus likens the tyrant Herod to a murderous fox. He speaks of himself as a mother hen who would sacrifice her own life to shield her children from danger.
Date: 2/26/2004
Time: 1:18:08 PM
"Jerusalem, my happy home, when shall I come to thee?" we sing. "When shall my sorrows have an end? They joys when shall I see?"
What sharp contrast Jesus brings to this image when he mourns, "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!"
For perhaps the past five decades, it is the latter of these images which more fully describes our contemporary image of Jerusalem. The "happy harbor of the saints" has become the harbor for centuries-old grudges. The "sweet and pleasant soil" has been soaked with the blood of battle.
This reality, a shattered terrestrial counterpart of the heavenly Jerusalem, is not inconsistent with the words of scripture assigned for today. The temporal nature of all of earthly life is lifted up. "Know this for certain," said the Lord to Abram, "that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs" for four hundred years. As history bears out, even after Abraham's descendents return to the awaited land of promise, they discover it to be flawed--pre-owned and still claimed.
Further, even family values have their limitations, implies the psalmist: "Though my father and my mother forsake me, the Lord will sustain me."
"Once again we are reminded that we have no abiding city on this earth." How often clergy have prefaced the announcement of death with these words. It is in this face of the temporal that Paul reminds us of the premanent; in the face of our status as earthly refugees that we are granted eternal citizenship; in the face of frail deteriorating bodies that we glimpse our body of his glory. "Our citizenship is in heaven, it is from there that we are expecting a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ."
"Wait patiently for the Lord," says the psalmist.
by Twila Schock and Bill Swanson in "Sundays and Seasons 2004."
Date: 2/27/2004
Time: 8:56:02 AM
Wouldn't you think the "opportune time" from last week continue on here? Temptation also turned into opposition for Jesus here.
Interesting side note: The Pharisee generally doesn't like Herod, since he is not a pure Jew, and a puppet ruler for the Romans. (Did the Pharisee care, or did they just try to drive Jesus away?)
In any case, Jesus response was straight out provoking to the authorities. But there is more in his answers: 1) Jesus knows his destiny of dying in Jerusalem; 2) He also knows that when his time is not up, he still need to carry-out the work. 3) Even though he know that people will reject and kill Him, he still love them. 4) At the end "until the time comes", He knows that He will prevail and they will see Him again.
Another side note: "the third day I finish my work" = "It is finished!" on the cross.
Possible application: We all face opposition, in order to overcome opposition we need to know what is our final destination (otherwise we will accomodate instead). If our life is align in the plan of God, we should continue to press forward in the time God allocated for us before our time is up. However, genuine love and compassion should be what drive us forward, and not just "purpose-driven" "getting-it-done". There is no guarantee that people will response to us (or to God), but at the end, "until the time comes", God's will shall be done.
Personally, I think I had it easy (may be because I am stillyoung and inexperience). Many DPSers here wrote about oppositions upon oppositions in their ministry (most of them come from the religious neo-pharisee of our days). I really admire your faithfulness to continue to press forward, for doing the work, and for the willingness to follow the footstep of Master into Jerusalem for your death as well.
Oh God, help me to be like you and like your disciples I see here.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 2/29/2004
Time: 2:58:06 PM
Most foxes feed on mice, voles, rabbits, birds’ eggs, fruit, large insects, and carrion. Because their prey is small, foxes are solitary rather than pack hunters. They generally work territories of less than 8 sq km (less than 3 sq mi), which they defend from other foxes. (SOURCE: fox (animal) Microsoft(R) Encarta (R) 2003.)
Hmmmm.....Herod: killing small prey (the slaughter of the innocents), worked within a relatively small area (Judea), defends his territory against other foxes (again, the innocents and then, of course, Jesus the Nazarene. No rivals will be tolerated in his territory!!!
The term Fox seems apt, yes?
Date: 2/29/2004
Time: 3:00:36 PM
Oops - just remembered those were two different Herods - the slaughter of the innocents and the fixation over Jesus were two different Herods. Sorry for the slip of mind there.
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 4:46:31 AM
The "ebb and flow", the "drum beat of history/cuture", contained in Jesus' reference to himself in constrast to the Pharisees and Herod, may speak at an applied level to this contemporary time of post-modernity. The relevance of femininity in relation to "metaphorical theology", I believe, has power to unlock spirituality not realized if one remains frozen in modernity's linear (rational) thinking mode, "power over" mode in authority, and many other patriarchal focused modes such as competition, isolationism, and individualism, to the exclusion of the holistic covenant-community resources. Values relevant to femininity may include such issues as empowerment, facilitative helping relations, trust-building, ultimate care/concern, cooperation, nurturing growth in faith stages, deep learning,and covenant-community-making connections, (especially in small group spiritual formation settings). The historical/cultural "paradigm shift" engages all of us in an "in-between-time", an eschatological moment not unlike the womb giving birth to the New Testament ministries (preaching, teaching, and healing) of Jesus. What we do with the "Living Word of God", the Divine Self-disclosure of God making intervention in our historical/cultural "hour", the Sacrament of Incarnation in the immediate experiences comprising our life stories, I believe, is contained in the "womb" of this Biblical Revelation. Making sense of why Jerusalem, the City of God, stoning the Word of God, is critical to the hermeneutical act of "praying this Holy Scripture.
critical reflections, PaideiaSCO.
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 5:52:00 AM
we hear about Warren's Purpose driven life, here this text seems to show Christ's passion driven life... a life not distracted from healing people and driving out demons no matter what Herod may or may not do.
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 5:58:22 AM
I think Herod is called the fox becuase of the old saying regarding "like a fox watching the chicken coop."
Herod was put in a position of guardianship of the Jews but did not have thier best interests in mind.
Pr.del in IA
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 6:06:30 AM
Initial thoughts:
1) the saying, "That's like telling the fox to mind the henhouse." Don't know if it'll really fit in, but it comes to mind.
2)anonymous post person - yes; the "passion-driven" life. Very appropriate; most people believe their lives have "purpose," and so would see no reason to open the book (at least my congregation says they do), whereas "passion-driven" is quite another thing. Of course, within the context of "purpose-driven" is "passion-driven," but in judging the book by its cover, many would not see the need to open it! Warren's passion is evident in all his writings.
Kind of like the Bible, huh?
Sally in GA
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 6:07:42 AM
oops - wasn't clear, sorry
Seeing the need to "open the book" - that's kind of like the Bible, isn't it? (not Rick Warren's passion)
Sally
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 6:47:18 AM
There is no reason to suspect that here the Pharisees are party to some plan of entrapment. Some Pharisees differed strongly with Jesus on interpretations of the law, but some also seemed open to Jesus (Lk 7.36; 11.37; 14.1). Luke certainly gives no totally unfavorable portrait of them. A Pharisee was a moderating voice in the Jewish council when it was dealing with the early church (Acts 5.34), and some of the members of the church were Pharisees (Acts 15.5). In fact, according to Luke, Paul himself acknowledged near the close of his ministry, not "I WAS a Pharisee" but "I AM a Pharisee" (Acts 23.6). Luke provides preachers and teachers with an opportunity to correct the very generalized and often uninformed prejudice against Pharisees which exists in some churches.
Jesus' response to Herod as "that fox" is unclear in its implication. In the Old Testament the fox is destructive; in Greek literature, clever. In any case, Jesus is neither intimidated nor deterred by the threat, because he works under the divine imperative: "I must go on my way."
Shalom
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 7:02:47 AM
As people continue to watch the Passion in the 2nd week, one relevant hook that could be used in this text is the emphasis on how Jesus did it all willingly, since his life was all devoted to it.
"Father, my heart is ready!" Beautifully non-biblical!
Coho, Midway City
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 7:34:25 AM
Someone commented on the correcting of spelling errors in last week's discussion. I'd like to add my opinion in that area.
Certainly we type quickly, and often make typographical errors. Some of us correct them ourselves in the next post with an embarrassed sigh. I believe that most of us overlook the spelling errors when the meaning is clear. However, it is good that we clarify when the meaning can become clouded, as when the misspelled word is another word meaning something completely different. If no one corrects our mistakes, how will we learn?
examples: (confirmation, conformation) (united, untied) (Hollow be thy name...)
Spelling has become so secondary in this computer age, especially since spell-checkers do not know what the righter :o) intends, neither do they contain many of our Bible words like "Thy." Let us continue to take advantage of the opportunity to grow, and to correct one another in love, so that our language can become more clear.
Michelle
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 7:36:36 AM
HsinOn Luke T. Johnson in Sacra Pagina thinks the Pharisees were trying to get Jesus to leave the area so they could discredit him. Luke ( the gospel writer); Johnson says may be trying to set us up for what happens in Jerusalem when Herod releases Jesus because all he wanted a sign. Jesus is implying that he will leave but in God's time not Herod's or the Pharsee's. Jesus knows that he will be killed in Jerusalem because that is God's plan. Padresac
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 7:36:53 AM
HsinOn Luke T. Johnson in Sacra Pagina thinks the Pharisees were trying to get Jesus to leave the area so they could discredit him. Luke ( the gospel writer); Johnson says may be trying to set us up for what happens in Jerusalem when Herod releases Jesus because all he wanted a sign. Jesus is implying that he will leave but in God's time not Herod's or the Pharsee's. Jesus knows that he will be killed in Jerusalem because that is God's plan. Padresac
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 7:54:47 AM
Just a couple of notes:
The third day when Jesus finish's his work seems to be the resurrection(the third day) and not just the cross.
Second, In Jesus's mourning there seems to be a hint grace. God has sent prophet after prophet to the city, never giving up, and now Jesus willing to be the mother hen is standing at the gates once more. God seems to never give up, so much so, that God comes incarnately.
RB IN Canada
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 7:57:21 AM
Colleagues,
For years I have come to this text, and I have focused on the chicken. Wrong. Seventy six times in scripture, the word for "corners" (the four corners of the Jewish prayer shawl) is translated, "wings". It is my conviction that Jesus is longing to bring the people of Jerusalem into the power of his prayer life. To receive the care of God through the prayers of Christ is an even more powerful image than that of his mother-henning them. Remember the woman who suffered from a flow of blood for many years? She was in a crowd and reached out and touched the fringe of his garment, HIS PRAYER SHAWL, and she was healed. Jesus felt God's power flow out of HIM, just as the power of sickness flowed out of the woman. Jesus wants Jerusalem Jerusalem to be healed for service to God, and not to be protected from encountering the troublesome people on earth. Remember THE PASSION? Jesus was not protected under a hen's wings, but encountered the sins of the world face to face and overcame them. On the cross he prayed, "Father forgive them (the most troublesome people on earth); they just don't know." Focus on the Jewish prayer shawl. Look it up on the web. In Hebrew: tallis or talleth. The fringe is: tse-tse. Remember: PRAYER! NOT POULTRY!
Oklahoma Irishman
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 7:58:42 AM
Colleagues,
For years I have come to this text, and I have focused on the chicken. Wrong. Seventy six times in scripture, the word for "corners" (the four corners of the Jewish prayer shawl) is translated, "wings". It is my conviction that Jesus is longing to bring the people of Jerusalem into the power of his prayer life. To receive the care of God through the prayers of Christ is an even more powerful image than that of his mother-henning them. Remember the woman who suffered from a flow of blood for many years? She was in a crowd and reached out and touched the fringe of his garment, HIS PRAYER SHAWL, and she was healed. Jesus felt God's power flow out of HIM, just as the power of sickness flowed out of the woman. Jesus wants Jerusalem Jerusalem to be healed for service to God, and not to be protected from encountering the troublesome people on earth. Remember THE PASSION? Jesus was not protected under a hen's wings, but encountered the sins of the world face to face and overcame them. On the cross he prayed, "Father forgive them (the most troublesome people on earth); they just don't know." Focus on the Jewish prayer shawl. Look it up on the web. In Hebrew: tallis or talleth. The fringe is: tse-tse. Remember: PRAYER! NOT POULTRY!
Oklahoma Irishman
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 8:21:35 AM
Colleagues,
For years I have come to this text, and I have focused on the chicken! Wrong! Seventy-six times in scripture, the word for "corners" (the four corners of the Jewish prayer shawl) is translated, "wings". Jesus was calling Jerusalem, Jerusalem to be gathered into the strength of his prayer, and not under the protection of chicken wings.
Remember the woman with the flow of blood? She reached out and touched the fringe of the garment of Jesus (his prayer shawl) and she was healed. It is better to be healed for service than to be protected from encountering the troublesome things of life, like hiding under the wings of a chicken.
In chapter 13, Jesus is talking about ministry which brings about the Kingdom of God. That is to say, sacrifice. Dedication. Engaging the principalities and powers of earth. What is needed? Prayer, not Poultry.
Look it up on the web: Jewish Prayer Shawl (Hebrew: tallis or tallith).
Oklahoma Irishman
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 1:28:07 PM
I like the hen and fox imagery as well, but I am struck by the today, tomorrow, and next day comment that Jesus makes twice in the Gospel.
I serve a small, rural congregation that tends to look at their ministry in terms of yesterday..."it was better when I was young"..."We've always done it this way". I think there must be some signifance, beyond the resurrection foretaste, to Jesus emphasizing current and future ministry.
I would love thoughts on how to present this idea without completely alienating the congregation.
PBG in IL
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 3:45:50 PM
Last week, the Temptations of Christ in Luke chapter 4,the governing image was "Why Am I here?" What is my purpose? This week the governing image could well be related to that one: "I know who I am and why I am here----but where am I going?"
Larry Isbell
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 6:03:45 PM
A few weeks ago as I was flipping through channels on my television set I caught a commentary on terrorism. Perhaps it was a diplomat who was speaking. Anyway, she said that terrorism cannot be erradicated by war. Terrorism will cease when all the world's children have what they need. At coffee the other day someone called the war on terrorism the "post modern French Revolution."
Jesus wanted to level the world's playing field; give all of God's children what they needed. This is a real-life, concrete, in the world experience God wants for God's good earth. "The good life," we call it in Nebraska. The problem is, you can't get there from the outside in--peace in the kingdom cannot be forced. We are loved into the kingdom, right? Jesus preached that the Kingdom cannot come on earth until it is accepted in the heart. Oh how Jesus wanted to gather his friends of the faith in Jerusalem to his bosom and protect them from their false faith selves and nurture them. Oh how they resisted him, even hated him for his emphasis on love. That's hard work! And it takes a lot of time to create change. (It's easier to move people and things by blowing them up and creating new governments. Yeah, right.)
Would he quit doing God's work because some people hated him for it? Nope. He'd keep his schedule--love and preach and teach and heal--knowing full well that Jerusalem would keep it's schedule, too.
As we come to the Lord's Table this Sunday, will we let Jesus protect us from our false religious selves and nurture us? Will we let love rule in our hearts and let Jesus change the way we seek happiness in this life? If loving our neighbor causes people to hate us--especially if they're gay--will we quit? Or will we keep God's schedule, knowing full well the world will keep its schedule? What, church, what? revdlk in ne
Date: 3/1/2004
Time: 6:14:43 PM
Oh...I almost forgot...Herod the fox...sly? That's just one thought. Quoting another passage...foxes had holes or dins, a place to lay their head. Also a place for safe-keeping, protection...Herod could plot evil things "underground." Jesus lived his God-centered life in the open. Every word face value. And he wasn't afraid. He wasn't interested in holes or dins. He was who he was and did what he did, both outside and inside of Jerusalem.
I'm not sure I'm preaching any of this. This is just some early musings. revdlk
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 3:15:44 AM
It would seem to me that we are struggling this week with imagery. In particular, what lies behind the image of the fox, and the hen gathering her brood under her wings.
The fox is a furtive creature. Attacks by stealth and cunning. Difficult to pin down and will often use different methods of approach.
This for me describes Herod. A man prone to the will of the people. Desiring popularity and in the process by trying to be so popular, loses all.
Compare this to Jesus who stands resolute. Preaching and healing in the open. Not lurking around the edge of issues, but confronting them head on.
Other than at night, a hen gathers her brood, mainly when they sense danger. It is a protective stand in which the mother hen, will often risk her own life, while protecting the chickens. I have seen a hen do this, when confronted by a dog. The difficulty, is of course that the chickens are oblivious to the danger.
Oscar Wilde tells a wonderful tale about the Robin and the Rose. The Robin impales itself upon the thorn so that the rose might gain its colour. I find a similar analogy in what Jesus does on the cross.
We didn't even know we were sinful. We certainly didn't think Jesus had to die for us. It was while we were still ignorant that God reconciled us to himself.
The furtive fox, or the resolute hen. Who is the greater?
Regards for a great week.
KGB in Aussie.
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 3:19:25 AM
Sorry, I meant to add, regarding the Oscar Wilde story, that the Rose was oblivious to what it cost the Robin, for the rose to receive its glorious colour. The chickens (us) were unwilling/oblivious to the danger we were in by our sinfulness.
My apologies for this glaring omission.
Regards, KGB
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 6:02:27 AM
I think you're laying an egg when extending the metaphor to thinking Jesus as a mother hen;-) Where there hen houses in his time? What's the exigesis on this? Peace and Joy, Francis
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 7:37:50 AM
I am being led to do a sermon series this year, The people at the cross:through their eyes....Plus, my people are trying a midweek Bible Study he Chose the Nails-Max Lucado... have you all see the Passion Movie? I did last Thursday... The Leesburg-Highland Ohio area Churches are going Saturday, 17 from my Church are going...I decided to go with them...Yes, the scurging was difficult to watch, I wailed with the marys...But what touched me was The actor had to be touched by Holy Spirit to show this-Jesus EMBRACED the Cross, He desired it with whole heart...I Know it was a dramatic license, simon of Cyrene, reluctant at first, then sympathic, then at Golgotha, Jesus said GO HOME you part is over, Profound words here....Only Jesus could FINISH IT!
Clerically Blonde In west ohio
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 8:07:26 AM
Somewhere there is a story about the Wycliffe Bible Translators working on a translation ito a language of some Canadian Indians. But these Indians regarded the fox as a shifty coward, and the translators didn't think that the image of the fox was the one that would connect with that group, so they changed this to read, Go and tell that wolverine (a really tough character). I have a lot of respect for the Wycliffe group, but I think thye were wrong here (but I may have been overly influenced by the absolutely hysterical portrayal oe Herod in Jesus Christ Superstar;-)
There are plenty of portrayals of the fox as the ultimate con artist (was it in the Walt Disney movie,Song of the South, taken from the Uncle Remus stories, that he wears a top hat and a shabby coat and is always up to something). If you worked for the Romans, the main thing you had to was to protect yourelf (same attitude you can find in large corporations and even the ministry).
To be a Puppet of the Romans was one of those positions where a little paranoia went a long way towards sel-preservation.Now there's a contrast:self-absorbed self-preservation against complete self-giving. And here comes this upstart Galileean (Galilee was known for producing people who claimed to be the Messiah and lots of other dangerous nonsense,like political unrest).
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 8:22:25 AM
It is interesting to see how crafty the Pharisees are in suggesting that Jesus leave for his own safety. It reminds me of last Sunday's text in which Satan suggests things to Jesus with the pretext that he is concerned about Jesus' physical needs, e.g turn these stones into bread...bow before me and I will give you the kingdoms of the world...throw yourself down and he will command his angels to bear you. Non of these was impossible to do, but Jesus can never be told when or when not to do something. His ministry is on heavenly timetable. <my cent's worth> Rev. Elijah Mwitanti New Jersey
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 8:22:52 AM
It is interesting to see how crafty the Pharisees are in suggesting that Jesus leave for his own safety. It reminds me of last Sunday's text in which Satan suggests things to Jesus with the pretext that he is concerned about Jesus' physical needs, e.g turn these stones into bread...bow before me and I will give you the kingdoms of the world...throw yourself down and he will command his angels to bear you. Non of these was impossible to do, but Jesus can never be told when or when not to do something. His ministry is on heavenly timetable. <my cent's worth> Rev. Elijah Mwitanti New Jersey
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 8:34:40 AM
The way Jesus responds to the suggestion by the Pharisees is not unique to this text. Whenever people assume that they can help Jesus out, they quickly and disappointingly realize that God does not need man to rescue him. Think about the following: Lord, don't go to Jerusalem, they were just about to kill you...(response: get behind me Satan). Peter picks up the sword and chops the ear off of one of Jesus' captors...(response: put the sword in its place [he reattaches the ear]). Judas complains about wasted perfume which should have been sold and the money given to the poor...(response: "the poor will always be with you" Rev. Elijah Mwitanti (pensuloson@yahoo.com
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 8:58:30 AM
Apologies for the double post. let's see if I can do better.
The song I was thinking of is "I vow to thee, my country." The music is actually from part of Holst's "Planet Symphony." The lyrics were written at the end of WWI. here they are from the "lyrics playground.com"
I VOW TO THEE MY COUNTRY (Words: Cecil Spring-Rice - 1918 / Music: Gustav T. Holst - 1921)
I vow to thee, my country All earthly things above Entire and whole and perfect, The service of my love; The love that asks no question, The love that stands the test, That lays upon the altar The dearest and the best; The love that never falters, The love that pays the price, The love that makes undaunted The final sacrifice.
And there's another country, I've heard of long ago Most dear to them that love her, Most great to them that know; We may not count her armies, We may not see her King; Her fortress is a faithful heart, Her pride is suffering; And soul by soul and silently Her shining bounds increase, And her ways are ways of gentleness, And all her paths are peace.
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 10:37:02 AM
Francis asks about hen houses. Jesus did speak of hens. And there was a cock that crowed three times in the Passion narrative. So these fowl were not foreign to the people and there were likely hen houses around. I never much thought of the Israelites eating chicken or eggs, however.
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 1:15:24 PM
Since it got flagged again this week, I've just got to say ...
has anyone but me considered that our sister in confirmation class spelled it confOrmation on purpose as a commentary, or joke?
Sally in GA
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 1:43:44 PM
Just some comments on the posts here. First, this Herod is not the Herod the Great that had the innocents killed. It is Herod Antipas, Tetrarch of Galilee who had John the Baptist beheaded. Second, Jewish rabbis routinely referred to people who were worthless and insignificant as a “fox.” Third, the Greek word that has been translated here as “hen” can more accurately be translated as “bird.” (See Deuteronomy 32:11) Fourth, the metaphor of the fox and hen can be reached, but to what purpose. As one poster said, “Where is the exegesis here?” A more practical reach is the comment Jesus made about three days and the bodily resurrection to complete his mission. Finally, did anyone pickup on the desire of Jesus to have all the inhabitants of Jerusalem return to God and be saved. Jesus was crucified for all mankind of all times. It grieves him that so many “were not willing!” God Bless. Pastor Chuck. St. Louis, MO
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 1:59:23 PM
Friends, I decided last week that the title I'll be working with for this week is "Finishing the Work." I submit my title & the focus text to the local access channel to be posted on the computerized community bulletin board church ad. At lunchtime today I happened to see the church ad proclaiming the title "Finishing the WorD." I'm not sure whether to call and correct the posting or change my title. Perhaps the error brings into play another dimension for the sermon! :>)) Robbie in KS
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 2:00:01 PM
Friends, I decided last week that the title I'll be working with for this week is "Finishing the Work." I submit my title & the focus text to the local access channel to be posted on the computerized community bulletin board church ad. At lunchtime today I happened to see the church ad proclaiming the title "Finishing the WorD." I'm not sure whether to call and correct the posting or change my title. Perhaps the error brings into play another dimension for the sermon! :>)) Robbie in KS
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 2:01:25 PM
Oops! Sorry for the double posting! Robbie
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 2:21:52 PM
Foxes, foxes, everywhere. Apparently biblical scholars have discovered that culturally the images of lions and foxes were not used as we use them: to describe crafty people, or territorial people vis; the posts. Lions and foxes were images of comparison: between greater and lesser powers. In calling Herod " a fox" Jesus was pointing to Herod as a lesser man/ruler/person, incapable of carrying out his threat. Its the equivalent of saying he was a weakling, small fry, clown or jackass. Herod sees himself as a lion and Jesus cuts him down to size. Whatever Herods/Pharisees plans may be these plans will fail because of God's plan. Jesus "must" do this, he will not be a victim of violence until he has completed what he came to do. All of us have had chicks like this: unwanted pregnancy where we could lecture, drugs, warn of addiction, traffic accident-irresponsibility. What Jesus offers isn't a lecture, it's a hug. This is difficult for all of us to do, whether were a parent, friend, colleague or even a Christian. The choice to respond is ours. mark in Canada
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 2:23:14 PM
Pastor Chuck
The gaffe about the two Herods was corrected in the next post.
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 3:21:32 PM
As I was preparing last week's sermon, I looked ahead (something I rarely do) at the lectionary for the rest of Lent and noticed that there were characters in each lesson that we hear about in the scriptures, especially around Easter, but we don’t really introduce to our people. This week it is Herod. We “Bible scholars” at DPS know all about him or do we? We’ve had a bit of discussion on “that old fox” this week. Do our congregations know who he was beyond the fact that he had John the Baptist killed? Do they know that Herod Antipas was not Herod the Great? Do we just expect them to know? How about Pilate next week and why would he “mingle” the blood of the Galileans with their sacrifice? Who were the Pharisees and the Scribes and are they like the older brother in the story of the prodigal son? Lastly, who was this man Judas Iscariot? These are the men around the edges of the Passion Story that we and our congregation love to hate and the ones that Christ forgave saying that they didn’t understand. What do we understand?
It is unfortunate that the story of another man is not found at all in the common lectionary. The statement of Caiaphas that “it is better for you that one man die for the people than the whole nation perish” (John 11:50) seems to echo in these days of terrorism, the war in Iraq, and the situation in the Middle East in general. Looking at the human fear of the reaction of the Romans to the activities of the Zealots (predominantly Galilean as in next week’s lesson with Pilate), how would we have reacted IF we did not understand? How different are the arguments between the Christian conservatives and liberals than the conservative Sadducees and liberal Pharisees but how did we come together at a common threat on 9/11?
Didn’t intend to get so long winded. Just some pondering about the “Men Around the Edges” that I’m looking at for Lent. Any thoughts? Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 3:27:03 PM
I am unsure if Francis is referring to my post but here are a few references to foxes, hens (and eggs)
"....if a fox goes up on it he will break..." Neh 4:03 "...went and caught 300 hundred foxes." Judg 15:04 "Foxes have holes, and birds of the air.." Mt 8:02
Both Matthew and Luke record "together as a hen gathers her brood" Mt 23:37
"or if he asks for an egg, will give..." Lk 11:12 "young ones or eggs and the mother..." Deut 22:06 "as men gather eggs that have been..." Is 10:14
I accept many of the interpretations of "fox" that occur in other's posts. I think Luke includes the comment to draw some attention to the standing of Herod, in comparison to Jesus.
For me, Luke is asking the question of the reader. Who is considered greater in the context of social opinion, (the king or the carpenter) and yet ultimately who is it that the people can depend upon to save them?
For me also, in this passage Jerusalem is not necessarily simply a city, but a state of mind. An attitude. That's why Jesus states it is impossible for a prophet to be killed outside Jerusalem. A prophet can only be unheard in an environment of unbelief, or a misdirection of belief. Remember that the Jewish concept of Messiah was related to a king, who would brandish an army and set them free from their oppresion.
Again I also point to Jesus's statement that these people were unwilling to believe that they needed saving. The majority of people I deal with in my ministry are exactly the same. It firstly has to be pointed out to us, what it is we need rescuing from. We are so immune to sin, that we don't recognise the symptoms.
I accept that metaphors and analogies can never fully describe the true spiritual situation, but I still believe Luke recognises the distinction between fox and hen here. The age old rivalry. Which one ultimately is the victor? The hunter or the hunted!
Thank-you for the stimulation of your discussions, and thank-you for the space to submit my own humble offerings.
Regards, KGB
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 3:44:09 PM
found a really good, if not great, sermon at http://www.bethquick.com/sermon3-11-01.htm (sorry, I don't know how to do a hyperlink here)
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 3:45:22 PM
forgot that the site would do the hyperlink for you when you submit it.
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 5:40:27 PM
I love the "Men on the Fringes" idea. I've been doing an Adult Sunday School lesson on the Disciples of Jesus that was intended to last for 2 Sundays. We're going into our 5th week of it and have only covered 3 disciples so far. I would enjoy leading another study of these people you mention in your post, the men whose names we have heard over and over, but don't really stop to study. Thank you for the good idea. I can see a terrific Summer Adult Ed program in this.
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 6:25:06 PM
Just finished scaning the posts. Great work friends. Two things. First I found the comment about the prayer shawl very interesting. Any more thoughts on that?
Second, I have not seen Tammy post for a while, lets hold her in prayer. Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 6:26:26 PM
A little off title but it is my mid week lenten sermon, What things do we do that betray Jesus today? ( Not deny but betray) Nancy-Wi
Date: 3/2/2004
Time: 7:52:04 PM
Weighing in on the"prayer, not poultry" debate. Read again Psalm 91, last week's lectionary Psalm.
It is he who will free you from the snare/ of the fowler who seeks to destroy you./ He will conceal you with his pinions/ and under his wings you will find refuge. (Grail translation)
Save you from the fowler by becoming a fowl? Incarnation!!!
My sermon title (yes, it's a previously-preached one, I'm usually not this far along on a Tuesday): Feathers or Fox Fur
kbc in sc
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 2:13:27 AM
Let's think about this scripture politically. How is it that political leaders rule? There are two ways that seem to rise to the top. There are those who rule by fear and terror (the foxes) versus those who rule by peace (the hens). If we look at our political leaders, they tend to rule by fear and terror. We saw this in Saddam Hussein. He was able to control the different factions in Iraq by fear. If they got out of line, they knew he would kill them. Our own political leaders rule the same way, only they create fear by using words. The democrats create fear in the hearts of our senior citizens by putting out rumors about the Republicans ending Social Security or reducing it, or whatever they can say. A good example of how fear can be struck in the hearts of people was Allen Greenspan's remarks before congress this last week. The truth is the Democrats and the Republicans have been dipping into the SS permanent funds to spend on their pork projects for years. In spite of all that is said about being for the people, there is a giant sucking sound coming from Washington as our concerned politicians suck the SS Fund dry. The Republicans (of which I am one), are just as bad. They also rule by fear saying we are at risk from terrorists, the communists, etc. and we need to have a huge military. My friends, it would seem the real terrorists (the foxes) are our U.S. congress. They both claim to care about us. Ha! Bush says it is good to have outsourcing of jobs. Kerry says it is bad, so his solution is to give workers a 90 day notice that jobs are being outsourced. The company is to say where the jobs are going and why. Oh, like that's a big help! You get 90 days notice, but the jobs will still leave!
In contrast is Jesus, who rules not by fear or terror, but like a caring hen, who wishes to gather his people under his wings. Jesus desires we become his children, to come under the protection of his wings. He will truly care for the people, those on the margins of life, the disenfranchised. Jesus calls the church to minister to those in need and to the unchurched and to bring them under God's wings of protection. Jesus does not rule by terror or fear. Jesus rules with peace.
The real foxes in this scripture are also the Pharisees. They are like a political party. They are telling Jesus Herod is after him, when they are the ones who want Jesus out of the scene. They are trying to put fear in Him. Jesus wants none of their politics and sets his face toward Jerusalem. He will not waver from doing God's will. He will do the work until it is finished on the third day. PH in OH
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 6:21:38 AM
Is it not the Transfiguration gospel this week. Could have really done with some help on that one. Great site, though, I often pass through.
Jonno
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 6:23:04 AM
Just a sidebar on this discussion of foxes and hens. Many people believe that chickens are, well, "chicken." Several of my friends who have raised chickens have told me that they can become very aggressive, especially over a perceived threat. For instance, if one throws a snake or ar rat into a chicken yard, the chickens will generally tear it apart. If you like an analogy, Christ didn't just allow himself to be killed while guarding his chicks. By dying, he took the offensive against sin and the grave and then rose in triumph. That's what I call aggressive. Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 6:34:50 AM
Sorry, Jonno. Transfiguration Sunday in the Common Lectionary cycle C was February 22 and we had a good discussion. Unfortunately, it is part of the members only area now. In cycle B (2003) it was March 2 and you may be looking at that list. If you are using the Mark account of the Transfiguration (cycle B), check in the "2003 Lections" area in the frame on the left of this page. It seems to be open to the public. Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 7:11:07 AM
The following is a long post about a hen who gives her life to save the chicks, and a chick who will not be gathered. It's an old story, and others have heard the same story with a hailstorm as the danger. Scroll past if you are not interested. I, however, believe the parable has relevance, as Jesus gives his life to save ours.
Michelle
The farmyard in today's story is a rather small place, with several kinds of animals, and a small fence that completely encircles the barnyard. The farmer's main income comes from the fields that he works, but he likes the various animals for both the food they provide and the variety they add to his day apart from the long days on the tractor.
On this farm some time ago lived a mother hen with her five chicks. The chicks adored their mother and followed her all about the farm. They learned to peck for food, and for gravel to help digest their food. And the mother hen was so proud of her chicks! They were going to grow up to be fine chickens some day, although they were still very young.
Now the chicks were not all the same, just like you are not just the same as any of your brothers and sisters, or exactly like your parents. Some of the chicks would stay very close to their mother in fear of the world while others might venture further away on their own. One of the chicks was particularly brave, and was the first to try everything. She was the first to practice wing flapping, and the first to peck at the gravel, and the first to learn to run. It seemed as if she knew everything about being a chicken, almost before she could learn it from her mother.
The hen was very comfortable with her brood in the farmyard, and was used to the various farm sounds and smells. It did not surprise her when one day the old tractor was started up. It was the small gasoline tractor that the farmer only used to move different pieces of machinery or other things around on the farm. The mother hen liked that sound, it reminded her of the good old days, before the big diesel monstrosity that the farmer had recently brought in to work the fields. Today the old tractor sounded a little different, but maybe that was just because it had been so long since she'd last heard it. She went on pecking at the gravel with each chick in sight as usual. The chicks were a little surprised at the new sound, and had their heads cocked to one side and then the other, trying to place the new sound. Then they sniffed the air of the new gasoline smell which replaced the diesel smell they were used to. The mother hen paid no attention. She rather enjoyed the smell of gasoline.
Just by chance another odor reached her senses, and it was not one that belonged. She looked toward the tractor and found that the farmer was standing several feet away from the tractor inspecting the contents of the wagon he was about to hitch up to the tractor. He had not noticed the small fire which had begun in the tractor's engine. Just as he stood up to turn toward the tractor with the wagon tongue, the small fire exploded into a large ball of flame, igniting the grass around the tractor and throwing the farmer against the wagon. The situation was now quite dangerous. The brisk breeze which blew protected the semi-conscious farmer by blowing the flames in the other direction, but that did not help the barnyard. The flames were steadily approaching as the mother hen gaped in fear.
Her chicks were scattering about the yard, but she gathered them together, and told them to sit tight underneath her. This was not a common occurrence for this time of day, and the chicks cowered in fear. As the fire came closer, the chicks realized the danger and scurried to find a way out of the barnyard, but the fence offered no escape. Again the mother hen insisted that her chicks gather underneath her, until finally they gathered in, at a loss for what to do. But as the smoke grew thicker, and the flames grew closer, one chick, sure that they were all going to die if they stayed where they were, broke loose and ran for the farthest end of the barnyard, certain that she would be the only one to survive, if only by getting as far away from the fire as possible. The fire was raging by the time the farmer became fully aware of what had happened. A neighbor had seen the smoke and called in the fire squad, and they were just arriving when the farmer scrambled to his feet and directed them to his water supply.
When the fire was completely out, the farmer assessed the damage. The barnyard had been completely burned over by the fire, and only the shell remained of what had once been the barn. It appeared to be a total loss, as noting moved in the yard once so full of life. The farmer noticed a strange black hump over towards the far end, and went to examine it. There, he realized that it was the mother hen, and underneath were four very frightened chicks, dirtied with soot, but alive.
The farmer did not even notice the small burned lump a few feet away, but he wondered what had happened to the fifth chick, the chick who had been the leader, the brave one, the independent one, the one who would not be gathered.
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 11:09:59 AM
The story of the hens, the chicks and the barnyard reminds me of a true story about a bird that shielded her chicks at the Mt. St.Helen's eruption. She died. The chicks lived.
West Texas Presbyterian
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 11:23:44 AM
Interesting varitey of perspectives on the text this week. My thougths are centering on two ideas from the text. First, the setting is Jerusalem, literally "house of peace." With threats of murder and the mixed political motives of the Pharisees, Jerusalem is anything but a peaceful home for Jesus and his followers. The lament in verse 34 is a frank expression of divine yearning and human rebellion. For Jesus, Jerusalem has become something other than what it is intended. It is the place for violent rejection of God's desire for reconciliation.
The second thought centers on the Lenten journey given in the Gospel texts. Last week, Jesus went to the wilderness and experienced temptation. This week, Jesus confronts Jerusalem and rejection.
In preaching the text, it seems logical that we 21st century followers have to acknowlege that the world we live in is far from what God intends. Humans have rejected the shalom of God. This fact is painfully made in my parish as young men and women in the military are deployed to war zones. We live in a time of heightened violence. This text gives us a an opportunity to hear Jesus' lament and repent of the ways our yearnings for security have torn our world and our communities apart. Lent is a time to declare God's intention for redemption and peace and to honestly admit how far we have fallen from it.
These thoughts are still in process. I appreciate your inputs.
Dan in Alabama
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 11:23:51 AM
Interesting varitey of perspectives on the text this week. My thougths are centering on two ideas from the text. First, the setting is Jerusalem, literally "house of peace." With threats of murder and the mixed political motives of the Pharisees, Jerusalem is anything but a peaceful home for Jesus and his followers. The lament in verse 34 is a frank expression of divine yearning and human rebellion. For Jesus, Jerusalem has become something other than what it is intended. It is the place for violent rejection of God's desire for reconciliation.
The second thought centers on the Lenten journey given in the Gospel texts. Last week, Jesus went to the wilderness and experienced temptation. This week, Jesus confronts Jerusalem and rejection.
In preaching the text, it seems logical that we 21st century followers have to acknowlege that the world we live in is far from what God intends. Humans have rejected the shalom of God. This fact is painfully made in my parish as young men and women in the military are deployed to war zones. We live in a time of heightened violence. This text gives us a an opportunity to hear Jesus' lament and repent of the ways our yearnings for security have torn our world and our communities apart. Lent is a time to declare God's intention for redemption and peace and to honestly admit how far we have fallen from it.
These thoughts are still in process. I appreciate your inputs.
Dan in Alabama
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 1:26:25 PM
Why does Luke have Jesus offering this lament over Jerusalem *before* he goes there? Craddock offers several possibilities, including this one that has my attention: "By this 'premature' location of the lament, Luke is saying there is yet time to repent, to receive pardon for sin, and to welcome the reign of God. That offer, in fact, will continue to be made following Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension, an offer not only to Jerusalem but to the entire world."
Perhaps this is a helpful direction on the Lenten journey of repentance. I'm also struck by the image of being gathered in the shelter of Christ's wings, as we gather around the table this Sunday for communion.
Beginning thoughts... Leanne in AL
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 3:14:44 PM
another week of great comments! Thanks, friends.
I have been moved by Christ's singlemindedness, and complete focus on His calling/task. In Luke's 9th Chapter, Jesus "set his face toward Jerusalem, " and essentially never looked back. Along the way he heals, teaches, casts out Spirits, and, when confronted with death threats, demonstrates that he won't be deterred.
The question I want to deal with is my (our) own tendency to become sidetracked by one thing or another and lose my focus. Consumerism, providing for my family, wanting to be a successful pastor, etc all pull me this way and that. The temptations mentioned last week sometimes slow me down to a near stop. I really want to walk undeterred, unafraid, and untainted but I don't...I don't even come close.
Along the way, Jesus' heart is breaking for the one's who won't be gathered, and he is distressed that the "Holy City" will be complicit in his own murder, yet he continues to love, heal, plead, teach, etc. as though not a person would be lost.
I like that. It makes me cry. I challenges me to ask for strength to stand firm in my own calling.
Haven't decided what film clip would be good with this theme. Any suggestions? Maybe Milo and Otis? Looking for a film that depicts singleminded purpose.
Stan in Tacoma
Date: 3/3/2004
Time: 6:37:28 PM
Chariots of Fire?
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 9:07:38 AM
How's this for a title:
Running A-FOWL of Herod!! (just kidding)
Sally
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 9:20:18 AM
Stan in Tacoma
some ideas for movie clips about single-minded purpose
"The Fellowship of the Ring" where Gandalf explains that the ring must be destroyed in the fires of Mordor where it was forged and that it would be a dangerous task, and Frodo Baggins steps forward and says "I will go"
The final scene in "The Apostle" where Robert Duvall is in prison for the murder of his wife's lover and he is leading what appears to be a chain gang in a hymn. This might take more explaining than you want to do, but it is really a powerful scene.
Denzel Washington in "Remember the Titans"
In "Miracle", the hockey players all give their college when asked who they play for. But through the coach's leadership, they all come to say "I play for team USA"
Not a movie clip, but the story of Walter Payton, who ran up and down the same hill thousands of times in the off-season
looking at this passage and the always excellent discussion, i get not simply a sense of movement, but of also inevitablity-almost a Walter Cronkite reporting of "that's the way it is" and more "that's the way it's going to be" and Jesus deep sense of regret that the people have not responded to this message of grace that redeems and heals as opposed to a message of power that domonates and controls. A pure Calvinist (as opposed to an impure Calvinist like me)would see Jesus staement as part of the inevtability of grace-no matter what we do or don't do, God's grace will find it's way into the world.
Here in East Texas, the daffodils are blooming (2 weeks after a snow)and the tempratures are getting warmer- asign that spring always follows winter. I think that part of Jesus answer to the threat of death is that he will do what needs to be done in a certian order, and that an earthly ruler has no say in what happens next. Herod might as well try to stop the spring flowers from blooming. As always Jesus places himself completely in God's hands. When you do that, the Herods of the world cannot frighten you.
But we are frightened, both by Herod and the problems that we face. But to let go of those fears may take us into the unknown (better the devil you know than the grace you don't?)No wonder that Jesus cries out in anguish "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!"
How willing are we to trust only in Christ as our shelter. Scott Krippayne has song that speaks to this "Sometimes you calm the storm, but many times, You calm the child"
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 9:21:31 AM
Mike in Soddy Daisy, TN- your observation of the presence of key passion story characters in the Gospel lections over the next several weeks really sparked energy and enthusiasm in me. I, too, am going to do a sermon series focusing in on these characters. This is a very timely approach given all of the hooplah around the Passion movie. It is helpful to pause a moment with each of these characters, seeking to understand them, and perhaps considering what we might have in common with them. Thank you for getting me out of the stuck place I have been in with my sermon preparation all week. I have been listening in on DPS conversations for quite some time, but this is my first posting. Thanks for all the great food for thought. Peace, Sarah in Lowville, NY
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 9:37:18 AM
Stan in Tacoma,
You are thinking along the same lines I was when I chose the title "Finishing the Work" (not the Word!) late last week. I was struck once more by Jesus' focus on the completion of "my work" on the third day and, meanwhile, being "on my way." I believe that Jesus turned towards Jerusalem knowing what awaited him there, yet perhaps hoping that there would be a change of hearts & attitudes for those who wanted his death. Yet, even knowing that Jerusalem = danger and death he had work to do that no one else could do.
I see so often the attitude in the church and in the world an attitude that someone else can do the work -- or maybe that someone else can do the work better. We (and yes I'm guilty, too) find excuses to avoid doing the work of building up the Realm of God that God calls each of us to do. Lent seems to be a good time to remind ourselves that we need to re-focus our own hearts and minds so that we become less distracted by the routines and the human needs of our lives and remember the cost of Jesus' single-mindedness in completing his work.
Robbie in KS
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 9:41:57 AM
this wesite is very helpful in finding movie clips http://www.textweek.com/movies/call.htm
this is the one about call and redemption, you might want to look under christ figures (click on index of subjects)
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 9:46:07 AM
Hey Sally,
Good sermon title -- you would have to be quite "plucky" to use it! Sorry, just a "poultry" (or should that be paltry?) word from a Northern preacher who needs to take a break from this morning's work....
SueCan
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 12:30:31 PM
SueCan- thanks; I needed a chuckle today.
I'm feeling kind of "fried."
Sally
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 12:38:39 PM
OK - silliness aside, I am actually kind of burnt-out today. I'm thinking of Ash Wednesday's Joel lesson - the priests weeping over the sins of the people. And now Jesus, our high priest's, weeping over Jerusalem (well, mourning for them, if not literally weeping).
Jesus appears to want to protect Jerusalem.
What about the Jerusalems like my congregation who are over-protected?
Sally in GA
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 1:02:22 PM
For a sermon title this week, I am going with: A Hen in the Foxes Den. I am going to talk about how God confronts the mighty of this world with the meek, how Jesus returned violence with love and how we are all called as Christians to dive into the foxes den when necessary.
Sort of a Don Quioxte jousting with windmills image. Or better yet David and Goliath.
"Gods strength is made perfect in our weakness."
Ed in MN
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 3:14:39 PM
I haven't posted in a while but have snuck in and out to read. I've appreciated all the strong mother hen images--and what a great association for Jesus to make with himself! Vulnerable to those who would kill him, yet strong in his purpose. I've posted a children's sermon idea that has the kids gathering under the hen's wings, made of a big cloth.
I've been playing around with the theme of journey, based on Jesus here and Abraham in Genesis. I'm looking at our goal, or where we're headed, and whether we've chosen that intentionally or not. it seems like a lot of us are either on the "comfortably numb" auto-pilot path, or on a more flamboyant path to self-destruction. Is there something out ahead of us that we're aiming for? Even if we don't know the details of what it will look like, do we believe that we will get there, by God's grace? (And I'm not talking about dying and going to heaven!) I guess I mean all of this to talk about how the goal transforms the journey.
I've had a harder time with this one than usual. Still just poking around on Thursday. Sigh.
Laura in TX
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 3:30:31 PM
I am going to tell my folks to touch someone and tell them "Prey!" It's good advice. "Prey!" I am not referring to the verb, but the noun. That's what they are, "Prey for someone!"
Jesus knew that we are all prey for Satan, the true ruler of this world, and Herod the pseudo ruler of Israel. He counted himself among the prey group.
Prey he would be.
I think Jesus calls himself the hen and Herod a fox because he knows that the fox is out to devour the chicken. He is obvously not chicken! And his wings will be stretched over Jerusalem on a cross. For everyone who wants to cease being prey, they have a friend in Jesus.
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 4:33:11 PM
With gratitude to kbc in sc I am going with a title Foxes, Friends, and Feathers. I am going to take the line that these Pharisees were friends and that Herod was indeed out to get Jesus. This whole season of Lent, I am looking at the passages to note the ways that Satan tries to lure us away from God's intentions for our lives. I am using the image of a basketball coach who prepares his team with a scouting report (what kind of moves did that team put over on us in the past or on others)so that we can be prepared to counter his moves. rather like C S Lewis in Screwtape Letters. This is more timely for Baptists in NC who know little about Lent but everything about March Madness. The ploys that I see in this passage is the fear of the fox (real or imagined), the false directions of well meaning friends, and the flittering away of life further and further from the protective feathers of God's good intent while the hawk is circling the barnyard.
Would like some comment on "it is impossible for a prophet to be killed outside of Jerusalem." jrbnrnc
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 6:56:27 PM
I just returned from The Passion of the Christ.I'm numb. I wept and wept. Forgive me please Jesus I pray. And then I pray, Thank you Jesus. It's what we preach, but a picture is worth a thousand of our words. Lent has taken on a meaning beyond anything I can describe to you here. I pray that all of you see it and feel it. LHS
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 8:08:26 PM
Someone said of Mel Gibson's excessively bloody, unnecessarily violent celluloid version of the Passion: "It's what we preach, but a picture is worth a thousand of our words. Lent has taken on a meaning beyond anything I can describe to you here. I pray that all of you see it and feel it."
I'm sorry... what that movie portrayed is not I preach. Jesus as hamburger is not what I preach ... and these pictures, in my estimation, are worth many fewer than a thousand words! Remember -- this was NOT the gospel ... this was a movie, someone's "artistic" rendering of a story cobbled together from three different gospel accounts, a story taken out of context, a story which in its own terms is incomplete -- the screenwriters picked and chose what they wanted to portray, leaving out things, and they added to the gospels' telling, as well. It is no more a realistic portrayal of the events of Holy Week and the Triduum than Dali's painting of the Crucifixion, or Goya's, or anybody else's. I was not moved to devotion by this movie and I cannot recommend it to anyone; I wouldn't try to dissuade someone from seeing it -- people ought to make up their own minds about it. But I certainly cannot praise it.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 10:37:44 PM
I always think of the true story of Hazel Miner...
A True story comes out of ND History…
Mary Helen Pelton wrote about the story after researching the newspaper archives in Center, North Dakota. It was the story of Hazel Miner who died on March 19,1902 in a blizzard. The not yet 16-year-old gave her life keeping her younger brother and sister alive with the warmth of her body and her coat. The Story of Hazel Miner, was put to verse and music by Chuck Suchy (North Dakota Troubadour during the ND Centennial Celebrations)
The Story of Hazel Miner (the song goes like this)
Wings on snow, a fate, not chose Morning finds a dove so froze, who too soon thought the spring arrived… in warmth below her love survived.
Up in Oliver County on the West Dakota Plain; lived a farmer's daughter, Hazel Miner was her name. She was soon to come in bloom. A prairie rose of spring, she'd never seen the young girl dreams her 16th year would bring.
Chorus: Hushaby don't you cry, cold is like a sorrow, sing a song it won't be long, you'll be warm tomorrow.
A 1920 mid-March storm caused the school to let out early; so each child could reach their farm before the blizzard's furry. With her brother, sister bundled tight; Hazel hitched the sleigh. But in the night, a blinding white, she somehow lost her way.
For half a day they plodded on then darkness desperation. Hazel put the young ones down, and lay her body ore' them. Through the night she gave them songs, and stories to sustain! Near the dawn, her strength all gone, three by sleep were claimed.
Chorus: Hushaby don't you cry, cold is like a sorrow, sing a song it won't be long, you'll be warm tomorrow.
Silent song, paling wind, storm at end, again begin, not all too soar the winds aloft, stiffened wings, feathers soft. The next day the searchers came, and found the horse still standin', it's eyes and nose frozen closed, no duty more demanding! They lifted Hazel from the snow, only limp her hair; with sadness joy, the girl and boy alive beneath her there.
Chorus: Hushaby don't you cry, cold is like a sorrow, sing a song it won't be long, you'll be warm tomorrow.
Wings on Snow, a fate not chose, Morning finds a dove so froze, who too soon thought the spring arrived, in warmth below, her love survived. Hushaby don't you cry the cold is like a sorrow, sing a song it won't be long, you'll be warm tomorrow. Hushaby don't you cry - you'll be warm tomorrow.
After further research… you can find the CD, which is WONDERFUL… via http://www.chucksuchy.com/dakotabreezes.htm
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 10:49:54 PM
I typed up the "Song" about Hazel Miner, after further consideration... HOW DO you spell Hushaby? Is it Hushabye? You get the idea right?
With grins, and blessings,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 4:44:10 AM
I have heard Chuck Suchy sing the song of Hazel Miner. It made me cry, and even reading the words provided by pulpitt brings the tears back. Yes, she gathered her brother and sister under her wings, and gave them life for the morrow. A true story is a wonderful example.
Michelle
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 7:10:26 AM
RE: KGB Aussie, Oscar Wilde's Robin and the Rose
Remember, too, the conclusion of this story. The fair maiden for whom the rose was intended rejected with disdain the rose (and the suitor who offered it to her) never realizing the price at which it was obtained for her!
Kathy in Fort Wayne
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 8:30:21 AM
I find it interesting how the Passion movie hits people in such different ways. I'm guessing Eric in Ohio did not cry at the movie. I wrote a review in our monthly newsletter and told about how I didn't cry although I was ready, thanks to a host church handing out tissues before the movie. I think some church members were disappointed that I didn't cry! But the movie hit me in a different way especially after all the whipping (which was way more than 39 lashes). After all of that I became less emotionally attached to the movie and more analytical. How could Jesus even survive all that whipping and the loss of blood to be able to even walk to the cross, much less carry the cross part of the way? And what about that baby with the devil? What was that all about?
I must admit, Eric's words hit home for me..... "I'm sorry... what that movie portrayed is not I preach. Jesus as hamburger is not what I preach."
another Ohio guy
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 8:41:57 AM
What is it about the offer of God's grace that so frightens us- or do we simply not understand what it means. Or do we know what it will do to us (transform us) A friend of mine used to say that we take on just enough Christianity to inoculate ourselves against taking it seriously (remember Screwtape's response to the young devil who thinks he has failed because the man he was supposed to corrupt has joined a church- "You got him!")
on transformation there is a story by Max Beerbaum "The The Happy Hypocrite" A young man has led a very dissolute, Dorian Gray kind of life, and it shows in his countenance. But he falls in love with a pure maiden. So he puts on a mask of goodness and kindness and wins her heart. But he is afraid to show her his real self-so he keeps the mask and after a while even forgets that he is wearing a mask-at least most of the time. They encounter someone from his past, who is amazed that he is with such a fine woman. He tells her that she has not seen her suitor as he really is, and so the man slowly, sadly, begins to remove his mask, knowing that he will lose this woman forever. But when he removes the mask, something remarkable happens. With or without the mask, he looks the same. He has been transformed by love, by grace.
The love of God, the grace of God, powerful beyond what we can even imagine, can continually refresh and remake us. And something about that frightens us
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 9:02:13 AM
Laura in Texas
There have been plenty of times when I find myself still pondering on Saturday (and more times than I want to admit , on Sunday morning)
If it's not too late to help, my favorite journey movie is "rainman" where Tom Cruise plays the self-absorbed Charlie Babbitt who suddenly becomes resposible for an autistic brother that he doesn't even remember. Charlie sees Raymond as a hindrance, but also as a way of getting part of his father's estate. But as he cares for Raymond (who he finally remembers caling "Rainman" when they were kids)who is incapable of loving him back, Charlie is transformed into a real human being. SOmetimes the goal transforms the journey, but it is in the journey itself that we are changed
revgilmer in texarkana (texas!)
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 9:31:51 AM
Mike in Soddy Daisy (great name!), thanks for tip to look at 2003 lectionary forums for transfiguration discussion...worked a flippin' treat mate! Saludos and blessings, jonno
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 9:54:11 AM
Another Ohio Guy mentions the multitude of lashes Jesus received. While I can't find it cited in the Scripture, it was law that a maximum of 39 could be administered. Any more than that was considered lethal.
This is just one of the "licenses" Mr. Gibson took in this movie of his. I stand with the minority by saying this movie is not authentic account it was promised to be. It can be listed among the other movies rated R for violence - gore for the sake of gore more than for any other reason. If not, then why did he have Jesus scourged more than the law allowed? Does he have a 5th Gospel the rest of us don't know about that has all this additional information?
Has anyone heard anything about the upcoming movie entitled "The Gospel of John"? It is supposedly going to be a verbatim rendering of that Gospel, from start to finish. Nothing added, nothing deleted. I wonder how that will pan out in reality.
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 10:41:57 AM
The film the Gospel of John is already out. A parishioner invited me and I went to see it without having heard anything about it. When I realized that it is indeed the gospel of John verbatim, I thought "How are they going to do all those long discourses?!" At three hours, it is a long movie and some parts do seem tedious, but I appreciated its portrayal of Jesus and the disciples. I could imagine using it as a resource during a Bible study of John.
Leanne from AL
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 1:35:36 PM
Someone asked, about Mr. Gibson and his movie, "Does he have a 5th Gospel the rest of us don't know about that has all this additional information?"
Not a 5th Gospel, but a mystical vision of a german nun named Catherine Emmerich. You can find her "meditations" on Christ's Passion (including her descriptions of mystical visions, many of which made their way into the screenplay of the movie) online at www.emmerich1.com/ DOLOROUS_PASSION_OF_OUR_LORD_JESUS_CHRIST.htm
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 1:54:23 PM
Thank you Eric in Ohio. I appreciate the link to the German nun's mystic vision. I think this might help me explain some of my misgivings about The Passion to my congregation members who simply swear it is Gospel, Gospel, Gospel all the way without a waver outside of it!
Of course, they will find a way to "explain" why a satan-figure had a place on the Via Dolorosa, even though the Gospels make no such mention of satan there. But, hey, it must be true. It was in the movie!
Thank you again.
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 2:21:00 PM
Thanks Eric and the other Ohio preacher for providing an observance of the movie "Passion" for those of us who are tempted to go see the movie but are against making Jesus' death a object for making an obscene amount of money in a Hollywood production that doesn't relay the message of love and tolerance that is so central to the Gospel of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. One of my parishoners went to see it and had to leave the theater just 30 minutes into the production and she is a prison warden.
Also many thanks for the post on Hazel Minzer's life giving sacrifice. More grist for the sermon mill. BB in IL
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 2:28:33 PM
I'm with Eric too. The Passion had a lot of added unnecessary violence, starting with the arrest. Way over the top. And what's this with all the blood on everyone, including Judas and Mary? It seems it is appealing to the lowest common denominator of American culture. On the other hand, I attended the movie with one of my parishioners who was deeply moved. I'm glad I let her comment first. I won't recommend the movie, but I don't want to undermine other people's experience of it either.
DGinNYC
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 2:59:07 PM
Oh - the 39 lashes ...
Actually, there was a law that you could not surpass 40 lashes. They stopped at 39 to avoid transgressing this law.
Sally in GA
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 4:53:52 PM
I attended the movie because I wanted to support a diverse group of clergy (not just Christian) who wanted to be informed for the needs of their parishioners. A catholic priest among us suggested the movie appears outlined by Luke's gospel, but is more based on the stations of the cross in relationship to the "via dolorosa" followed by parishioners in Jerusalem. Some minorities might see a comparison to their own mistreatment throughout history depicted in the treatment of Jesus. All in all, though viewing the movie for my own spirituality was not my purpose for going, I'm glad it didn't turn me off as much as I expected it to.
Shalom
Bammamma
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 5:10:06 PM
The Jewish law on no more than 40 lashes is in Deut. 25. In II Corintheans 11, Paul says that five times he received from the Jews 40 lashes less one.
I found myself counting the lashes in the movie, believing they would stop at 39. They gave 32 with the sticks and then switched to the cat-of-nine-tails (or whatever it was) that really tore up the back.
I came home and looked up the stuff on 40 minus one. It was Jewish law, not Roman. However it was deeply embedded in me that I thought they would stop and when they didn't it incensed me.
My sermon title this week will be "The Passion of Christ" and what I will say is that to look at the trial and crucifixion as Christ's passion misses the point. His passion was his life. He was passionate in this week's text for the people of Jerusalem. His suffering began long before Jerusalem. Every betrayal, every mis-interpretation contributed to the pain he experienced as He walked the earth. I am pained when I think that His pain might be continued and enhanced by my sin.
West Texas Presbyterian
Date: 3/5/2004
Time: 7:12:31 PM
I have been thinking of the irony of Jesus' being about the work of healing, delivering many from demons while he, himself, has resolved to be on his way to Jerusalem where he will be captured, tortured and held on the cross by those who reject him (ultimately all of us). The irony is that Jesus came and made many acceptable in the society in which they lived, and yet he was ultimately rejected by his own Jerusalem. Just some thoughts JG in Emmitsburg, MD
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 3:58:39 AM
Some responses to Eric in OH and others - Passion of the Christ!!
I too think that Mel exercised some dramatic licence in relation to this film. But I also think that an analytical review of the movie according to learned scholars of the bible is not necessarily the best method to determine its purpose or success under the hand of God.
In my viewing of the movie, I sat next to a young woman, who for all accounts, was simply coming to the movies for an evening out. She was visibly effected. (For good or bad, I couldn't determine)But I would warrant she is still thinking!!
I actually found the violence, quite tame, to what I imagined might have actually happened. We are talking a frenzied atmosphere, similar perhaps to some of the football riots at soccer matches, and the like. People at fever pitch, have no regard for our sensitivities. Ask the Jews about the Germans. Ask the Palestinians about the Israelies, and vice versa. Read Maccabees I & II
To answer a person who asked about the blood. Remember that for the Jewish person, a persons life/spirit was contained within the blood. Mel is approaching the story from a conservative catholic interpretation, in which the blood of Christ is an absolutely sacred element of the passion. This is associated with the sacraments and other elements of the church, such as stigmata and the like. I found the scenes of Mary wiping the blood at the whipping post, to be rather insightful actually.
I too am fairly certain that a large proportion of the film is based upon the "via dolorosa", especially the tradition surrounding "Veronica" wiping the face of Jesus, and Jesus falling three times.
Having now had time to reflect upon the experience of the movie, I have to say, that there are some extremely interesting insights that have arisen in my own interpretation of the events. Some conflicts of course, but certainly also some new openings into the gospels.
I never underestimate the power of God to use whatever medium and person, to spread his message.
I think that for us to be even talking about it here, illustrates its impact even if adversely.
Regards to all for a great week-end of preaching and teaching God's people.
KGB in Aussie
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 7:11:13 AM
I have not read all your entrys, have had a rough week pastorally. I found this in Proverbs, also going with the king and the lion thing and why neither of these terms were used for Herod. Proverbs 30:29-31. "There are three things which are majestic in pace, yes four which are stately in walk. A lion, which is mighty among beasts and does not turn away from any; a greyhound, a male goat also, and a king whose troops are with him." Blessings, Toni
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 7:28:34 AM
Thanks, KGB in Aussie. While I won't recommend The Passion, there were a couple of portrayals that gave me food for thought. For instance, the soldiers whose severed ear was replaced by Jesus. Somehow I had never pondered what this experience must have been like for this "bit player" in the Gospel. And while I did not object to the extrabiblical portrayal of Satan moving through the crowds, I did think the baby at his breast was a bit over the top.
And by the way, for the record, it was a Nightingale in the Oscar Wilde "parable."
Kathy in Fort Wayne
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 7:35:50 AM
I have a brief response to the comments about “The Passion” made above. I agree that Gibson took cinematic license with the movie but I believe he tells the story in a manner that is theologically consistent with the Gospels.
It is interesting that BB in Il said, “One of my parishioners went to see it and had to leave the theater just 30 minutes into the production and she is a prison warden.” I worked for many years as a psychologist and as a warden in our prison system before being called into the ministry, and I was also profoundly shaken by the violence. Perhaps she and I perceive the brutality differently because of our real-life experiences?
Finally, the cinematic portrayal of Jesus and the actually death of the human Jesus, no matter how brutal, are only hints which point us toward the suffering of God the Christ whose deity suffered more than humans can imagine. Any tool that will aid us poor preachers to help people understand that true God of true God suffered for us is welcome.
Perhaps we were so caught up in the blood that we missed the tear?
Leon in NC<><
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 7:48:02 AM
I have to disagree with the criticism of Mel Gibson's movie. Seems to me that those among us who are so "learned"....have become as Pharisitical as they can be!
Of course this is not Gospel....but it is as close I think as a "movie" can get...and of course it is causing contraversy........it did then....and it will now...and it will continue whenever any of us get close enough to the real Truth.......to express it in a way that cuts the chaff away.
Problem is....we think that we are "outside" of this movie looking in. We are not. We are just like those at the time who would turn away and say what a fool Jesus was.
Tonight I am taking a third of my congregation to see the movie. I've already seen it. And after, we are returning to the church to "debrief." I can't think of anything in my years of pastoring that has more effectively got people in "The Book."
Hamburger? yeah....it was. But such was the extent of Christ's love for us.....and more. "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem......How I have longed to gather you in.......but you would not." Seems we still have this problem
Jude in Wash
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 8:04:49 AM
Talk about desperate, I usually finish sermons at 8:15 Sunday Morning, services begin at 8:45, but tomorrow begins a vacation and will be a long day, so I don't want to get up so early. I borrowed thoughts from some of you, maybe you'll see them in what follows. I don't have a fancy web site to post the sermon, so here it is. Just skip it if you don't want to see a really long post.
If you close your eyes and picture a fox I wonder what your mental image is? There are many. In college a fox was a great looking girl, but somehow I don’t think Jesus meant that when he called Herod Antipas a Fox.
Herod probably didn’t like being called a fox either. Herod fashioned himself a powerful man. Lion would have most likely been his animal of choice. Foxes are cunning, sneaky, use stealth, quickness and deception to catch their prey. And even if Heron indeed was this type of person, he would not have enjoyed being called a Fox.
In the Movie “You’ve got mail” a man named Fox, is pretty sneaky in chasing his “prey.” And I’ve always thought it a cute, rather benign “chick flick” set in New York City, in a nice upscale yuppie neighborhood. A part of NYC that is fun to visit, wander around in and watch people.
But I did read one review of the movie that was completely uncomplimentary. Tom Hanks character was labeled a predator, who used trickery, decite, and power to trap the object of his hunt. The reviewer went on, “This is just the type of stereotypes we have so gallantly fought for ever to overcome!”
If you are familiar with the movie then perhaps you can see that side of it. As sinful human beings we often go overboard in our desire for something or someone. We call it love, and it becomes perhaps an obsession, a compulsion, an addiction, or at best a driving force that causes us to do “what ever it takes” to possess that thing.
If that is not bad enough sometimes we transfer our impure concept of love onto God. Francis Thompson in his only famous poem describes God as the Hound of heaven. He describes in detail about how he felt pursued, chased, tracked rentlessly by God, as a blood hound would track a criminal. In the end, after he had surrendered to that force, he came to the realization that God was not like that at all, that God was not to be feared or avoided, but embraced. God’s love is not possessive, or dominating or controlling in anyway, instead it is sacrificial, giving and unconditional.
One of my friends in an obvious play on words to Rick Warren’s book, The Purpose Driven Life” says that Christ lived, “A Passion Driven Life.” This passage in Luke certainly points out the divine “must” of Christ's life. Even in the face of the impending danger of that Fox Herod (the same guy who had John the Baptizer beheaded) Jesus was driven by his love for us, even when we don’t appreciate it (killing the prophets and stoneing those whom God sends, to continue on a course that would lead to his death.
And at perhaps the height of danger, gives us a visual image of a love that will not end. As a mother hen gathers her chicks to herself, so I long to gather you under my wings. Stories abound about mother hens dying to save their young. From the volcano at Mt. Saint Helens, to the backyard chicken coop fire, firemen and others have discovered little live chicks under the dead wings of a mother dying while protecting them.
That is a love we seldom know or show. There's a Peanuts cartoon that speaks to this text. In the first frame, Lucy is standing next to a tree. Looking up, she shouts to Linus, "What are you doing in that tree?" Linus answers from the branches of the tree, "Looking for something." Then he adds, "Can you see Snoopy? We climbed up here together, but now I don't see him." Lucy unsympathetically shouts back up the tree, "Beagles can't climb trees." The next frame shows Snoopy falling out of the tree right on his head with a loud "klunk." "You're right!" Snoopy concludes. Then Lucy lets Snoopy have it, "You stupid Beagle, what are you doing climbing around in a tree?" Lucy stomp off saying "You're both crazy! Go ahead and knock yourselves out! I couldn't care less!!" Snoopy's sore head is still spinning. "Rats...I was hoping for a hug!"
Does that ever happen to you? You get hurt, do something no so smart, and all you get is a lecture about how stupid you are? "Rats," we may say to ourselves, "I was hoping for a hug!" There are those times when what we need most is that somebody still cares and loves us, because we already know we have acted like jerks.
One of the most dreadful sins we Christian commit is acting like Lucy. We are too quick to open our mouths and give lectures to others. It is so easy for us good and righteous believers to judge and condemn others for their stupid mistakes. What compounds our sin is that we think that we are doing the proper and right thing by giving them all our good advice. "You shouldn't have done that. You should have known better. You're getting what you deserve." And so on. Sometimes people need good teaching. Jesus is often teaching the people, but many times, especially after making a stupid mistake, people feel more like Snoopy: "Rats...I was hoping for a hug!"
What is worse is that we figure since we are like that, God is like that. All we are likely to get from confession to God, is some good (but unwanted) advice about how we should do better. The good news is this passage tells us it isn’t this way at all! God wants nothing better than to give you a hug.
In Venice, in one of the many churches there that are all so decorated with art there is this wonderful picture of Christ hanging on the cross, high on a hill over Jerusalem. Arms outstretched on the cross, his hands seem to be struggling to come together as if in an embrace. He is lovingly looking down on the crowd and has a tear in his eye.
Some are paying attention, some are oblivious to what is going on, Some are sad, some are jeering. Over in one corner almost unnoticeable is a mother hen with little baby chicks tucked safely under her wings. Then you realize Christ is looking right at that mother hen, the shadows from his arms are covering all the people The title of the painting is, It is finished. It is finished! Thanks be to God, Amen
PBob in SC
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 8:15:47 AM
H. Richard Niebuhr (in <u>Christ and Culture</u>, 1950) makes the point that "the gospel" always exists within some median of culture-- that it is never free floating in some absolute form. Part of what is happening in scripture is that we have the gospel imbedded in four unique (yet related in time and general geography) cultures. The gospel of/in Matthew is slighty different than the telling in Mark, Luke, and John. It should be because it is addressed in and to different situations.
My criticism of the movie is that it jumps around from one biblical gospel to the other without any declaration of what it is doing.
Ultimately the question is what is the gospel for the 21st century? If we told the story in a contemporary way, we might have a parallel to Paul declaring, "I glory only in the hypodermic needle." I don't mean to be trite. The son and messiah of God comes to save and is rejected by those to whom He is sent. He is judged by the official organs of state and religion and is executed by the official means of punishing those who do not accept (without question) the rules of the society in which they are placed. It is clear that the Jesus of the gospels listens to and heeds a higher law. Those who lead the people/city/Jerusalem heed a lower law-- one that is once more rigid and more maleable than the law of God as understood by Jesus.
Jerusalem, Jerusalem...
West Texas Presbyterian
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 9:30:00 AM
One of my ministry candidates put it thus:
Jesus died so I didn't have to see the movie.
Interesting take.
Sally
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 1:01:46 PM
Do you think Jesus really wants us to stand around and watch him be brutalized? His own 12 didn't. Do you think he would have preferred they did? What would it have taught them?
CARL (Christ as Risen Lord)
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 1:03:23 PM
Hey all, a few thoughts:
-- Re: Luke's passage and The Passion discussions. Have any of you looked at the Genesis reading? The covenant that God "cuts" with Abram and takes the part of both? It is in Jesus that this covenant is fulfilled. And sure, blood is part of all of this, it must be. Blood was life -- the sacrafice wasn't to give the life of an animal, but the blood that would live on. It is with Jesus' blood that this new covenant is sealed, once and for all, never to have to be repeated.
Re: the Passion movie: Eric in Oh is on the money. It helped me to know ahead of time that Gibson did not just use the gospels as his source, but also the imaginings of the German nun who lived and wrote some 200 years ago, Sister Anne Catherine Emmerich - The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Much came from there.
I saw it last week and was asked by a local paper's interviewer about anti-semitism and extraordinary violence. For me it was an interesting film. I'd seen enough promotional pieces ahead of time to be more objective (knowing it's not Jim Caveziel's own palm that the nail goes through, etc) ... yet still be carried into the film itself.
This is Mel Gibson's vision of the passion of Christ. Good for him. He felt driven, passionate if you will, enough to make this when he could have done another mindless adventure film. Is it MY vision? No. I come from a protestant tradition that understands and works through the passion, but focuses on the resurrection. Mel comes from a tradition that is pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic, which is all about passion yet still acknowledging the resurrection.
Anti-semitic? I didn't feel so, but then again, that's from MY viewpoint. I found evil (personified) to be present, winding throughout the crowd, everywhere. I found the opening scene an interesting, provocative scene -- though you won't find it per se in the Gospels. But the most relentless folk in the film are the Romans. The crowd was manipulated, but it was a power issue -- then again, I come from an understanding that includes that.
Violent? Oh yes. But I am not sure there was an overabundance of gratuitous violence. I think we tend to be selective in our memories just how violent that time was. Maybe it's not a bad thing to be reminded that the cross is not just a lovely dangly piece of jewelry that is an accessory to our wardrobe. Look at any People or Us magazine and see some of the most unlikely people wearing crosses who likely (don't know for sure, obviously) are not wearing them as a reminder of Christ's passion-ate giving for us. When they are four feet long in lovely amethyst, trimmed in silver or gold filigree, nestling in a cleavage that goes to the bellybutton -- okay, that's when I think this movie is a good reminder for us not to make an accessory or a piece of furniture out of the cross.
Would I take my youth group? Not likely, not without it being an outing that included parents, and only the older ones with prep time ahead and de-briefing afterwards. Is there value to seeing it? Hey, look at the discussion it has caused in the newspapers, on tv, in supermarket lines, on the dps website ... I'm grateful for the discussion it is provoking. I'm grateful for the opportunity to talk with unlikely people concerning Jesus and his mission on earth.
What I find interesting is that this particular week's discussion board is all about foxes and hens and hasn't even connected to the Genesis covenant with Abram. God covenanted then to take on both sides of the covenant ... it is Jesus' blood that seals this new covenant, the last covenant.
Sorry to be so long winded --- mm in pa
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 1:04:49 PM
We're all talking about the violence in the movie, but the biggest controversy in my neighborhood is Mel Gibson's portrayal of the Jews as a group, and the fear that it will provoke another round of anti-semitism, because it emphasizes the role of the Jewish leaders in bringing about the crucifixion. Gibson draws heavily from Matthew and John which tend to stereotype and blame the Jews. The gospel of Luke is much more even-handed, and doesn't lump all Jewish people together into one group. Our gospel lesson for today is a case in point. It says "some Pharisees"... not THE Pharisees, or the Jews. As several have pointed out before me, Luke has Jesus eating in the homes of Pharisees (7:36, 11:37, 14:1), and the book of Acts counts Pharisees among the early Christians (15:5).
So I'm trying to talk about what makes us want to look outward, stereotype and blame others, rather than look inward and see what in us may contribute toward the kind of atmosphere that would put Jesus to death. Lent is a time to repent, not blame.
As always, thanks to all of you who post early. You are angels!
DGinNYC
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 2:22:03 PM
in a bible study this week one person's bible suggested that the fox for Herod actually was a reference to a weasel. If this is true I can remember my father telling me that one of the worst animals to get into the chicken coop was a weasel because it seemed to enjoy killing. rick hobbs Powassan ON
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 5:53:45 PM
Hi, There is probably no body left on line. I like to finish at the last minute. Havent read any on this site in quite some time. I was thinking about the idea of the pecking order and how much of a contrast Jesus was to that. j in nm
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 7:49:58 PM
Interesting article in the Friday USA Today paper about Israel and Jerusalem tours and visitors. It reports that, despite the current violence, US visitors to that area are up 34%. They are expecting increase like that and more (maybe even 40-50%) in the coming year. Thought this was fascinating and could help any last minute desperate preachers in their messages.
Peace,
Another Ohio guy
Date: 3/6/2004
Time: 9:22:53 PM
As I look and look and look at the text there are a few things that stand out to me. The first is the placement of the text. This passage follows Jesus teaching on the narrow door and his listeners doing all they can to enter into it. In relation to this it seems to me that Jesus laments over Jerusalem because He has longed (key word) to bring Jerusalem to Him. Implying to me that He has done everything possible---including giving His life for them---to save them, protect them (like a mother hen) and bring them to Him, but they would not have it. The only thing Jesus hasn't done is made the choice to choose Him. Again...by implication...Jesus has done everything possible for us to enter through then narrow door...but the choice is our to choose Him.
The second thing that grabs my attention is I wonder who Jesus is really addressing when He tells the Pharisees to go tell that "fox." I believe the fox implication is directed at the Pharisees who are acting deceptively. The Pharisees are trying to drive Jesus away (after all He just said that even Gentiles (those from east, west, north and south---see previous passage) would enter into the Kingdom ahead of them. Their rejection of Jesus is symbolic of the rejection Jesus will face in Jerusalem. Thus it is the initial conversation with the Pharisees that leads Jesus to lament over Jerusalem in the first place. Their rejection of HIm leads ultimately to their own destruction. The time when Jesus reaches His goal (i.e. arrives in Jersualem triumphantly to the cheering of the crowd, "Blessed is He...etc.") signals the beginning of the end for Jerusalem. Note: Luke 19:41-44.
Paul
Date: 3/7/2004
Time: 4:06:26 AM
Sometimes we see what we experience, i.e., the prison guard.
Sometimes we see what we seek, i.e., anti-Semitism.
Sometimes we see what we fear, such as brutality.
Sometimes, God gets through, and we see what God wants us to see...