Date: 12/25/2003
Time: 3:57:29 AM
So, Jesus was praying, i.e. in communication with his Father, and the word that he heard was a confirmation of their unique relationship and how delighted the Father was with his Son. And this was when all Jesus had done to that point was be baptised. He hadn't done anything else (resisted temptation, healed anyone, gone to the Cross). What an affirmation! Do we who are "in Christ" receive the same affirmation from our Heavenly Father? WOK DOWNUNDER
Date: 1/4/2004
Time: 3:10:44 PM
The prepositions (and, in one case, a conjunction) are kind of interesting to me, at first glance...
v. 16 - interesting that it reads "...He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit AND fire." Usually we think of it as "the Holy Spirit OF fire." Then later the Holy Spirit descends LIKE a dove, not AS (in the form of) a dove.
Baptism OF fire, Baptism BY fire ...
and, apart from the prepositions, v. 21 - "The heaven was opened." I wonder what that looked like. When we say the heavens open up, it means it's raining cats and dogs.
This time only doves???
OK, OK, OK ... I'll sign off!
Sally in GA
Date: 1/4/2004
Time: 5:07:05 PM
When do we receive the Holy Spirit? I kind of always thought that we receive it as part of baptism, as I baptize people in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) we have believer's baptism. Those of you who are UMC have as part of your confirmation liturgy the laying on of hands and communicants receive the Holy Spirit then. Just some beginning thoughts. PH in OH
Date: 1/4/2004
Time: 7:20:09 PM
I'm thinking about following up Jan. 4th's sermon on the Wise Men ("We have seen his star. What say we? Should we follow where it leads or not? Are we willing to receive whatever it is God offers, even if it's not what we expected?") with a similar theme on Baptism. ("We have been baptized in the Spirit of God. We are the children of God. What say we? Will we be teachable and moldable, or not? Are we following God, or expecting God to follow us?)
Very early thoughts.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 6:39:05 AM
The last of the prophets of Israel, John the Baptist points ahead to "the one mightier than I [who] is coming." Although John baptizes with water, Jesus will baptize with the Spirit and fire. In Luke's version of this story, the focus is not on John, however. God is the actor, causing the Spirit to descend upon Jesus and inaugurating his mission with the proclamation that he is the "beloved Son."
By now a goodly number of Christmas gifts and toys have been shown too fragile for the real world--or perhaps the recipients weren't sufficiently careful, not "goodly" enough. How about the gift of the Holy Spirit? Surely it is not too fragile for the real world. We have received the Spirit at our baptism. Are we taking good care, making good use of that Spirit?
When Jesus presented himself to John for baptism, John was astonished. "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" Did John fully understand Jesus' reply? "Let it be so now; for it is proper for us in this way to fulfill all righteousness" (Mt 3.14, 15). John and the people gathered around Jordan could see Jesus stepping into the river's water, but they could not realize he was stepping into his offered life as the representative of all the people of the world. He, sinless, offered himself as the sin bearer for all sinners. He, the Lamb of God, began the living and the dying that would take away the sin of the world.
And then, it was as if God couldn't stand it--all this significant beginning and the people saying only, "That's Jesus stepping into Jordan." And so God opened the heavens, the Holy Spirit assumed the bodily form of a dove, and God himself used the words to make the case: "You are my Son, the Beloved, with you I am well pleased" (Lk 3.22).
That was already an indication of what we humbly believe, that the Father accepts this Savior's sacrifice for us all, has raised the Savior from the dead, and will raise to everlasting life all who believe this gospel. In the meantime, we have the wonderful gift of the Spirit to care for, as the Spirit cares for us.
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 6:45:52 AM
The culture into which Jesus was born had rigid social customs. People behaved in accordance with their status given at birth, never presuming more or less. Little would be expected of the son of a manual labourer from out-of-the-way Nazareth. For a person like Jesus, the right to speak in public or to interpret the Torah would need to be established and demonstrated. It is not surprising then that when Jesus spoke and taught, people would wonder at his boldness and question the source of his authority.
Luke tells readers that Jesus receives this authority directly from God at his baptism. God comes to Jesus through the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, identifying Jesus as the "Beloved." The readers of Luke would interpret and understand this voice from heaven as giving both authenticity and authority to Jesus' ministry. The love that Jesus later proclaims in his ministry is first extended to him now. We, too, are given the promise that identity and authority are ours as we recognize God's presence in our lives and set out to begin God's work.
Only four weeks ago, we read these verses with expectation and hope as we prepared for Jesus' coming. Repeated here, we experience them with new eyes and live them out a bit differently too. The expectation is being fulfilled, and in this Season after the Epiphany, we continue to look for and seek out signs of Jesus' reign in our world. This text asks us to make space to hear God's voice in our life - a voice we share with those around us, and that tells us that we, too, are God's beloved.
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 8:18:07 AM
When you are baptized in this faith you are putting on Christ, who washes away your sins in baptism and gives you the Holy Spirit, etc. So you see, do you not, that this forgiveness is not brought about through your penance, but rather that Christ bears the sins of us all and kills them in his body, and that we take hold of this by faith and let ourselves be baptized according to his command.
...Hence, not only are sins forgiven in baptism, but we are also made sure and certain that God is so well pleased with it that he, together with Christ and his Holy Spirit, proposes to be present when it is administered and he himself will be the baptizer; although this glorious revelation of the divine majesty does not now occur visibly, as it did at that time on the Jordan, since it is sufficient that it occurred once as a witness and a sign.
Therefore we should diligently accustom ourselves to look upon these things with eyes of faith and to interpret this glorious revelation and divine radiance and splendor which shone forth above the baptism of Christ as happening to us; for all this did not happen and all this was not recorded for Christ’s sake, for he himself did not baptize [John 4:2], but rather for our comfort and the strengthening of our faith, for the sake of which he also accepted baptism. Therefore wherever anybody is being baptized according to Christ’s command we should be confidently convinced that God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is present there, and that there is pure delight, pleasure, and joy in heaven over the fact that sin is forgiven, the heavens opened forever, and that now there is no more wrath but only grace unalloyed.
--Martin Luther, vol. 51
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 8:19:41 AM
This text always stirs my mind to ask, "If Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his baptism, does that mean he didn't have the Holy Spirit prior to (without) baptism?" If Jesus is fully God and fully human ("if" in the sense of "since") would the Holy Spirit not already reside in him? How does his baptism change him? I know this is a discussion that's been going on for centuries - why did Jesus have to get baptized ... but I'd appreciate any new insights into the in-dwelling of the Spirit prior to or after Jesus' baptism. HSin ON
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 9:00:14 AM
The 6:39am comment this morning (unsigned) said in part: "In Luke's version of this story, the focus is not on John, however. God is the actor . . ." That started me thinking about the use of focus in photography. Some photos are made less interesting by the attempt to get everything in focus. The skilled photographer recognizes how focus can draw the eye to the critical feature(s). An easily recognized example is the difference in a portrait when the nose is in focus, rather than the eyes. I seem to remember that Rembrandt used light in his paintings to create the same effect. His nativity and crucifixion scenes are two examples. Perhaps Luke is using the narrative in the same way. The people thought John the Baptist was the focus and wanted to know who he was. Luke has John shift the focus to its appropriate spot. Then Jesus actions and God's actions and words complete the shift. (Please don't think I am separating Jesus and God in any way that denies Trinitarian doctrine.)
Alan Selig revselig@prodigy.net
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 9:06:23 AM
I have never interpreted the descent of the HS upon Jesus as his being filled with the HS for the first time. I have seen it more as a confirmation of his ministry, of putting away his old life as a full-time son, carpenter, etc. and taking on the new work of rabbi, preacher, and ultimately Savior. Kind of like an ordination, I guess.....sort of, anyway. I see the HS showing up as the visible sign of God's approval of what Jesus was about to do -- the time was right, his calling was clearly understood, etc.
But, I'm willing to learn other viewpoints. Please share, OK?
KyHoosierCat
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 9:13:13 AM
PH in OH said, "Those of you who are UMC have as part of your confirmation liturgy the laying on of hands and communicants receive the Holy Spirit then."
I won't speak for my Methodists brethren and sistern... but I think they would probably disagree with this characterization, PH. As an Anglican/Episcopalian, I certainly would. We also practice infant baptism and then confirm in early adulthood, but would not say that the blessing, indwelling and gifts of the Holy Spirit are not received until then (confirmation). Rather they are received in full at baptism and then acknowledged by the adult who re-affirms the promises and commitments made on his/her behalf by Godparents and parents. (This, of course, is a very "thumbnail" abbreviated statement of what both sacraments are all about, so don't take me to task for leaving something out!)
As for the question asked by HS in ON about Jesus not receiving the Holy Spirit before his baptism, I'm not sure that's what's going on here... Jesus doesn't seem to "receive the Holy Spirit" in the same way we followers do in our baptisms. Rather the Holy Spirit appears as the Dove and the voice of the Father is heard saying, "This is my Son...." What this speaks to me is the involvement of the Trinity, all three persons, in the ministry of the Son in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth. At the very beginning of his earthly ministry, all three Persons of the Holy Trinity make an appearance affirming that the ministry of the Son is the ministry of the Holy Spirit is the ministry of the Father. Jesus is baptized not to receive the Holy Spirit, whose presence he clearly always has, but to set the example for those who would follow him: "Let it be so for now" he says to the Baptizer who objects to his coming to him (in Matthew's version); it is done simply to conform to God's will. The Gospel narratives clearly reject any idea that in the baptism Jesus became anything different than he had already been.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 9:21:31 AM
By the way -- I preached (in part) on the "Why?" question when we had the Matthean version of the baptism in 2002. You can find that sermon at
http://thefunstons.com/sermons/a011302.html
The text has some Hebrew and Greek characters in it for which you may not have the fonts, but you can read through those, I'm sure.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 10:20:54 AM
Off topic, but I celebrate great news when I read it. Tammy in TX wrote on a page for a previous text something that few may have read....I got back on it purely by accident.
Anyway, her daughter was tested again because there were signs of a progression of the cancer, but the tests indicated that Kelly was stable.
Hallelujah, and thanks be to God! Tammy, we may not tell you this every week, but your family continues to be in our prayers.
Also, every person who has written in with concerns or tragedy is on my personal prayer list, prayed for daily. Please know that.
- A regular DPS Reader and Contributor
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 11:25:44 AM
To KyHoosierCat and Eric in OH - thank you both for your insights - both eloquent yet simply stated. You've opened up a whole heavenly realm of "hooks" for me to begin! Most appreciated. HSinON
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 1:31:58 PM
The phrase that is jumping out at me (this time, anyway!) is that the people "were filled with expectation". Sometimes I look at persons in my congregation, and I see persons filled with anger, or despair, or "vinegar"; sometimes, hope, or joy, or "sunshine". To see all of them filled with expectation that they would encounter the messiah in worship be a wonderful thing!
John's baptism seems to be an "outside job" while the more powerful baptism that Jesus will bring is an "inside job." We have a need for the inside to be clean so that God may use us as vessels of Jesus' grace.
On a liturgical note, we will be remembering our baptism this Sunday -- not the act of baptism, but the importance of living as the baptized of God. I may have gotten the idea through this group years ago, but we will be placing clear colorless glass beads (found at craft stores) in the baptismal font and covering them with water. Using the UM ritual, there are questions to be answered concerning discipleship, affirmation of faith, thanksgiving over the water, etc. -- and then the people will come forward to "claim" their baptism by withdrawing a bead from the water and taking it with them.
OLAS
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 2:08:26 PM
Alan,
Thanks for the camera ... focus concept. Neat idea. Even if it isn't used here, it could be used as a different vehicle for shifting focus within any passage. In this case, it was a neat insight. Thanks. mm in pa
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 2:10:35 PM
KHC and Eric in OH,
I agree -- well said. As I was reading through the posts I kept trying to form in my head something that better explained this passage as an answer to the earlier question. Thank you for doing it for me. Whew. Perfect.
mm in pa
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 2:13:55 PM
To Whoever Wrote the Epiphany series idea last week:
I have been thinking about that all week long, that this whole time coming up is a series of individual epiphanies about God -- last week, from the Magi; this week, from John. Neat idea.
mm in pa
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 2:16:33 PM
DPS Reader & Contributer and Tammy in TX:
Thank you Reader for lifting up that exciting news about Tammy's daughter Kelly. As you do, and many others I'm sure, I also keep Tammy and her family and all others who express prayer concerns in my thoughts and prayers until I hear differently. I missed Tammy's good news and pray it continues to be so -- stability is a Good Thing!
mm in pa
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 2:31:22 PM
Okay, now I'm feeling like Sally in GA, thinking in small bites. I promise this is the last post for a little while.
KHC, I like the idea of your first post above. As I read and prepared yesterday afternoon for where I thought this sermon might go, that is somewhat the direction.
I believe I'm going to tie in the Isaiah reading with the Gospel (and on that page, it's nice to know I"m not the only one who sees the connection, whew). "I created you. I called you by name, you are mine." Israel has been called, and we have been called in baptism to do God's work in this world. The Isaiah passage is not just about, "I will be with you" -- but "I have called you by name and you are mine."
We have a baptismal vocation. A few weeks ago one of you talked about the baby in the text that was dedicated to God for service in the priesthood and how wouldn't it be interesting if we all had that in mind, nurturing a newly baptized child towards a life with God in that same way as long ago when children were dedicated to life in the church (the confines of it, ie, priesthood). I guess that's been on my mind also, because I believe that is where this week is headed for me.
Israel is called by God to be a light to all nations, chosen by God to reflect God's love and glory. Our lives also are claimed by God. We are called by God to do the same. What is it we individually are called to do? Doesn't always mean "professional ministry" -- but we are each ministers, ordained or not.
There is some wonderful stuff towards that end in Barbara Brown Taylor's The Preaching Life (doncha just love her stuff?!), early in the book. I believe we are each called to do God's service. The trick for us is finding what that is for us.
Thanks for the help ... and patience.
mm in pa
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 5:39:12 PM
God is good.
Thanks for the prayers and the celebration of God's grace with me. Kelly is doing well and starts another round of chemo tomorrow. My son gets pins put in his ankel on Friday. What a life...God is still good.
Eric in Ohio...
Thanks for the insight on Baptism. I live in a very baptist dominated area and have had great conversations with my brothers and sisters in that denomination. But I continue to struggle with the right way to explain what I know about my baptism. Eric put into words what my heart understands. Thanks.
Tammy in Texas
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 5:57:20 PM
Eric in OH, Actually, in our confirmation liturgy, we UMC's do lay hands on the confirmands and say words akin to "Recieve the Holy Spirit and be confirmed as a full member of Christ's Holy Church." (My paraphrase, I'm at home and my book of worship is at church.) So in liturgy we are saying that their is no indwelling of the HS at the time of infant baptism but is instead reserved until the confirmand makes a personal faith profession, accepts the vows made for them at their baptism, and then has the HS confirmed upon them.
RevIsrael, a UMC guy
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 6:34:06 PM
Our daughters always looked forward to the youth choir tour every summer during their high school years. They would practice and practice and practice, and plan and plan and plan -- what clothes would they take with them, how much makeup, who would they room with.... They would sometimes get so caught up with the particulars that they would forget about the important factors -- what they were doing and why they were going. It became ritual for us to take them aside for a few moments just before they boarded the bus and remind them that while they would be away from parents and people who knew them, it didn't matter. What did matter was for them to remember who they were and Whose they were. When we remember our baptism, either at this annual remembering event or witnessing another's baptism, it is a time to remember who we are and Whose we are. ps in or
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 7:34:53 PM
RevIsrael... then, pray tell, what happens at baptism?
In the Episcopal Church, the baptismal formula, "I baptize you in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" is used, after which the newly baptised is chrismated (anointed with oil) with these words, "N, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit in baptism and marked as Christ's own forever." Then a prayer of thanksgiving is offered which begins, "Heavenly Father, we thank you that by water and the Holy Spirit you have bestowed upon this your servant the forgiveness of sins...."
The prayer at confirmation is "Strengthen, O Lord, your servant N. with your Holy Spirit; empower him/her for your service; and sustain him/her all the days of his/her life. Amen."
Thus, our understanding is that the anointing of the Holy Spirit occurs at baptism and is reaffirmed and strengthened in confirmation.
I suspect, however, that this was not always the Anglican understanding. I don't have any of my historical prayer books at home (where I am writing this), but I would not be surprised if the older form of confirmation were similar to the UMC form, since much of the Methodist liturgy is based on earlier Anglican prayer books, since Wesley was an Anglican after all.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 10:39:34 PM
In fact, just because Wesley was Anglican, his own experience can be instructive. As the son of an Anglican pastor himself, he was certainly baptized and confirmed according to the practices of the church. He was also thoroughly instructed in the faith at his mother's knee, along with his brothers and sisters. He was even trained at Oxford for the priesthood. Yet it was not until he came to know his sins forgiven in the Aldersgate experience at age 35, after years as an ordained Anglican priest that he began to experience the fullness of the work of the Holy Spirit in his life. Some would call the Aldersgate experience Wesley's "anointing with the Holy Spirit." While I don't know that I would necessarily call it that, I would certainly say it was akin to the voice from above at Jesus' baptism, because at the point of knowing Christ had died for his sins, his spirit seems to have moved from sensing himself a fearful slave to God, never sure that what he was doing was pleasing to God, to knowing himself to be a beloved child of God, with a sense of peace and joy he had never before experienced in his relationship with God.
So, when we speak the words of promise and call at baptism and confirmation, we are acting as the Church on behalf of Christ, who is the head of the Church, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, witnessing to those wondrous acts God does in human lives as shown in the lives of countless saints living and dead; but we are not necessarily saying that those things to which we are referring are happening syncronously with our words and actions. We are saying that those things DO happen and CAN happen and, by God's grace, WILL happen in the life of this particular believer, even though we cannot anticipate when, where, or under what conditions. Our saying those words and doing those acts in faithfulness to the God who makes and keeps promises, among other things, acts to open the possibility that this person will both be open to such things happening and, by God's grace, actually seek for their taking place in her or his life.
Doug in IL
Date: 1/5/2004
Time: 10:57:17 PM
KHC,
I would agree with you wholeheartedly, that Jesus is not receiving the Holy Spirit for the first time at his baptism. It is a setting apart of him to begin his earthly ministry,(I guess you could say an ordination of sorts) but if we believe that Jesus was both God and human, and God is three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then don't we have to assume that Jesus was one with the Spirit and His Father from birth? To say Jesus received the Holy Spirit at his baptism in this passage for the first time would no doubt be supported by those who would also adhere to two baptisms, which I don't believe is at all a scriptural belief.
Susan in Wa.
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 3:29:44 AM
I love the dialogue on Baptism occuring this week. I wish I was preaching! The Lutheran liturgy is nearly the same, if not exactly the same as that of the Episcopal. Could it be that we receive the Holy Spirit at our baptism (not sure how one gets through life without that guidance even as a child) and that through instruction and life experience, we come to realize the power of that Holy Spirit within us. It is after instruction and some life experience that we are empowered by the knowledge of what the Holy Spirit has done and can do in our lives! Just one AIMs thoughts Tammy in Texas
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 3:33:14 AM
Okay, one more thought.
It occurs to me that my Baptist friends growing up, though not yet baptized, were still led by the Holy Spirit to encourage me from time to time. Could it be that the Holy Spirit just is; He comes DOWN to us BEfore we understand and draws us to the waters of Baptism even if our families do not? Tammy in texas
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 5:47:59 AM
Susan in WA,
Thanks for your support of my thoughts. You say that Jesus had the Spirit within him since birth....I would go one farther and say Jesus had the Spirit within him even prior to his birth....I am one who believes Jesus has always been, and that the Trinity did not start with the Incarnation or Pentecost. While somewhere it says "Today I have begotten thee", and many would say that means Jesus did not exist in any form until some point in historical time, I personally hold to the belief in the pre-existence of Jesus, the Son of God, dwelling as one with God and the Spirit.
KHC
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 6:02:27 AM
A few comments,
Certainly Jesus - a part of the One Godhead - always had the Holy Spirit (pre & post incarnate). Consider that not only was the descent of the Holy Spirit a public confirmation of Jesus' public ministry, but also a fulfillment of Isaiah 42:1-7 (esp. v. 1 where the Spirit rests upon the Messiah, marking Him as the Messiah).
As believers, we receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith (1 Cor. 12:3). For some this occurs later in life when they hear the gospel and are converted. For others, it occurs at the moment of baptism, when they receive the Holy Spirit in the birth from above via Spirit-water in John 3.
For those baptized as infants and do not subjectively think they are "saved" until later in life when they have a conversion experience, it is not that God's promise contained in their baptisms is unreliable or faulty. As Luther said, "Baptism puts you into the boat of salvation, but you certainly can decide to climb out."
Luther in IA
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 6:08:37 AM
To add to the HS discussion, it is the role of the HS (not the only role) to convict and convince. How are we drawn, when seekers yet? As "pre-Christians", as some say. The activity of the Holy Spirit, speaking, reminding of the Word and Scripture, certainly is present, isn't it, before any other act? LK in HC
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 6:14:02 AM
My understanding of the Holy Spirit is that he (and I do choose to use "he"; I certainly refuse to use "it") is God WITH us and WITHIN us. We can't do anything about the WITH us part. He's here, and that's that. But we have to invite him to come WITHIN us, and that happens when we receive Jesus Christ in baptism. As someone stated earlier, we may not be fully aware of the presence of the Spirit within us, but he's there, opening our hearts and our minds to "grow in wisdom", leading us into living obedient lives. In fact, it is the Spirit who leads us to baptism, either for ourselves or for our children. It's not a miracle washing; we don't make a sudden change once we're baptized, but a gradual spiritual growth, led by the Spirit whom we received, and who inspired the Biblical writers to pen the words we use to learn about God, Christ and Spirit and to come to faith.
This puts me into contradiction with the Acts text, where people accepted the Baptism of Jesus Christ, but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. I haven't yet figured out how anybody knew they had not yet received the Holy Spirit - was there some extra ritual they went through for that or something? Or did their behavior not demonstrate that they had been touched by the Spirit, so it was assumed they had not? I don't know....
KHC
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 9:38:50 AM
I am interested in the part about Jesus baptizing with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Also the part about the wheat and the chaff seems to go with it. Is the gospel writer telling us that when we come to know Jesus, the benefits of that relationship are two fold: 1) that we will receive the inspiration of the Holy Spirit toward holiness, and 2) that we will be refined by fire. It seems to me that the what and chaff do not represent tow different groups of people, rather, two aspects of one person. The wheat is the part that is usable, and is able to be transformed into something higher; while the chaff is the part that is unusable and if left mixed into the whaet renders it inferior and virtually unusable. I would love to know what anyone else thinks about this "rabbit" I seem to be chasing. RC in NC
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 10:26:40 AM
RC in NC, if you are a paying member of DPS, you can go to the list on the left of your screen and click on 2003 Lections. On December 14 we had a lively discussion of Luke 3:7-18, which includes the part about Spirit and water, chaff, etc.
To get back, click on Current Lections....
Hope this helps. If not, you may get the discussion going again. It was a good one, I thought.
KHC
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 10:54:23 AM
OLAS,
What is the UM ritual you refer to for the affirmation of baptism you plan to use this week w/ the glass beads? I'm Lutheran, so not familiar w/ that precise ritual from Methodist tradition, but might wish to "borrow" it. Any chance you could post a copy w/out it requiring too much space? Or send it to me at mannfamily@loretel.net, if possible. Thanks.
Heidi in MN
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 11:44:19 AM
To: RC in NC Re: Chasing Rabbits There is a good outline of the possible meanings of "Holy Spirit and fire" in the New Intepreter's Bible if you have the Luke/John volume. It lists 5 possible meanings. Mostly it ties it to the wheat and chaff, but also makes mention of the "tongues of fire" ala Acts. It also talks about the possible reference to a refiner's fire. Appraently no interpretation is definitive.
To: Eric in OH Re:Confirmation As usual I should keep my mouth shut until I have the resources at hand. Clearly the UMC liturgy speaks in terms of the HS being recieved at Baptism. It is at confirmation that one accepts that for themselves. The liturgy there that I misquoted is more accurately as follows, "(name), The Lord defend you with his heavenly grace adn by his Spirit confirm you in the faith adn fellowship of all true disciples of Jesus Christ." I gotta learn not to speak off the top of my head, cause it's more blunt than sharp up there. RevIsrael
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 11:51:17 AM
For those UM's who want more on baptism and confirmation, the statement of "By Water and the Spirit" is a good resource. It is available in .pdf format at http://www.gbod.org/worship/images/water&spirit.pdf (page 10 specifically) Hope it helps. RevIsrael
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 5:13:57 PM
I think it is Hope publishing, not in the office can't check that has a song, "order my steps". I am using it for the baptism of a young man (8). He has ask to be baptized. (Each person baptized has a song that gives them advice for their life now in the Spirit.) The song talks about God's Blessed Will and walking in the Word. This young man will start his life in the Spirit on Sunday. I am going to combine this with the lyrics of that song. It talks about the world changes, but God doesn't. Hopefully by the time we are finished he will be very aware of the steps he is taking and his journey will be one of welcoming the Spirit.
I am also heading out next thursay for a Cuban VIM trip to build a church. With out the power of the Holy Spirit I could not do what I will be doing in Cuba. I hope to emphazes that all in all that I do I welcome the presence and power of the Spirit I also heard we will be preaching(three clergy going.)
Side note off topic, What have any of you heard about the Mel Brooks Movie about Jesus. I understand it will be released about the time of Lent. This might be better as a discussion topic. I am thinking of connecting it to lent.
Nancy-Wi
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 5:34:51 PM
comment to KHC - I'm confused. In Acts 10, Cornelius' family and friends receive the HS before Baptism. As a result perhaps of their faithfulness and righteouness in seeking God. NSHB
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 5:45:59 PM
KHC,
Then what do you do with John 1, In the beginning was the word. . ." Did not Jesus pre-exist as word, and then was born as human? I can go along with Jesus having the Holy Spirit prior to birth, as word, and part of the trinity.
Susan in Wa.
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 5:56:04 PM
KHC and others,
In regards to the presence of the Spirit with us from the time of baptism and the progressive development of the Spirit's presence and activity in our lives: To me, one of the beautiful things about infant Baptism, is that it is so wonderfully illustrative of God's grace and that there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. But then, when that child lives out their baptism, and comes to a place of actively taking a deeper step of faith, it is also proof of God's grace that has been present with them throughout their lifetime.
I have a friend who grew up in the same church I did. Had all the same teaching I did, but didn't take it seriously, until in her late 20's early 30's. She now belongs to another church, more fundamental in theology, and she has said, "I was never taught the basic faith growing up. I begged to differ with her and said that she had been taught it, but hadn't accepted it as her own until later. Maybe the seeds were planted, and it was watered later and came to a place of a fertile plant. That to me is also proof of God's grace being present in her life, even when she was off doing her thing as a teen and young adult. The Grace that holds on to us, and says, "I will never leave you or forsake you;" the grace that holds onto us, in our rebellion and sin, and says "I love you still." The grace that rejoices in the one who was lost who comes back, throwing a party of rejoicing.
Susan in Wa.
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 8:07:35 PM
One of the things with which we seem to be struggling in the discussion of the work of the Holy Spirit and the question of the pre-existence of Christ or the function of the Spirit in Jesus' baptism is the question of whether God is always everywhere or not. If God is everywhere, then the Holy Spirit is both "with us" and "within us" at all times, even when we do not know it. That seems pretty much like the definition of "grace" to me.
John Wesley wrote about "prevenient grace," the grace that works on, in, and for us before we even know it is there and that works to bring us into a covenantal relationship with God through justification, a "new birth," and sanctification.
Jesus apparently didn't need to go through this process of justification and sanctification, since he was one with God from the beginning. However, we are forced to deal with the story that says "And Jesus increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human favor" (Lk. 2.52). How, we ask, can Jesus increase in divine favor? If he is one with God from the beginning, can he gain any greater favor with God by anything he does in his earthly life? It seems impossible. One of the features of the Trinity in Christian thought is that it consists of a relationship of perpetual love-giving and receiving. Did something about that relationship change when the Word was made flesh in Jesus? Probably not. But if he was fully human, even though also fully divine, didn't he have some steep learning curve regarding the continuation of his love-giving and -receiving in the Trinity in light of the frailty of the flesh? That's probably a question we'll never be able adequately to answer this side of heaven. But the minds of some will not be satisfied having such questions unanswered.
One thing we're confronting here is the problem of human language as it struggles to express the inexpressible. What we're also confronting is the need we human beings have to make sense of things. And we're further confronting our tendency to try to make sense of things by telling stories. So the gospel writers are doing their best to tell stories that will express the inexpressible as well as that which can be comprehended in human terms, and it's important that we not get hung up in asking "when did Jesus know he was God's son" or "when does the Holy Spirit enter a person," lest we lose sight of the question "how can I best respond to the Spirit that is always present to and in me and all others and is calling me and them into fuller relationship with the One who made us all and to Whom we all belong?"
Yet a part of the function of the story is to help us and others to have some way to talk intelligibly about this ever-present Spirit and the ways that Spirit "works" in human lives, as well as the way human lives were meant to be under the Spirit's influence. Without the stories, we are left to draw our own conclusions, and if history is any guide, our conclusions as human beings can be very limited and very misguided. So we'll need to continue telling--and living--stories that are tied to and reflect The Story the gospel writers have struggled to find words to tell.
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 8:08:03 PM
Doug in IL
Date: 1/6/2004
Time: 8:28:06 PM
After all of that, I just want to add that in reading such things as the story of the Spirit descending on Jesus "in bodily form like a dove" or of the voice "from heaven" saying to Jesus "You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased," it is important to remember that Luke was writing after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus and probably for people who never knew Jesus personally; so he was trying to say something that would be important for the people to hear and to know. He wasn't concerned about the existential situation of Jesus at the time of the baptism in Jordan or whether he was pre-existent or became God's Son at the moment of the Holy Spirit's descent at the time of his baptism. He was concerned about providing the people something that would inspire them to live like God wanted them to live and to do so by relating to this human being, Jesus, who did the best job a human could do in living like God wanted him to, trusting that the same Spirit that enabled Jesus so to live could and would enable them to live that way.
So we can say that the Holy Spirit is given to a person at her or his baptism, even though the Holy Spirit is present always with and in each person. But the story raises awareness in such a way that it is possible the person will actually experience something apart from our words that "tells" them that the Holy Spirit did, indeed, come to them at their baptism. And that will be the story they tell for the rest of their life. (This points to the confounding idea that perception is reality, which is something Susan in Wa referred to as her childhood friend not taking the church's teaching seriously until she was older, while Susan had taken it seriously when it was given her. Their respective perceptions of the same events and material led to their construing reality differently.) (Sorry for the longwindedness. I hope some of this makes sense and is helpful.) Doug in IL
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 12:08:13 AM
Nancy WI,
Mel Brooks made a movie about Jesus...LOL I think I have seen about every one of his Movies! I don't remember that one! I think I would have!
Maybe you are thinking of History of the World Part I?
It Begins with Sid Ceasar as a caveman...Discovering marriage, klunk, club a wife! Then it moves to Ancient Rome...Bea Authur Running the unemplyment office...Vestal Virgin girl...Gregory hines as a slave...Madeline Khan and Dom Deloise and Ceasar and Queen...The Horse's name was Miracle! Gregory Hines had to pass a Eunuch test...lol he rose to the occassion and failed! MY favorite line, scene the guy with the boombox on his shoulder blasting "Funkytown, won't you take to.."
There was a Jesus and Last supper scene...Mel, Greg and the vestal Virgin were working in a restaurant Mel was the waiter, He kept asking then questions,saying Jesus...Jesus would answer YES. Leonardo Da Vinci came to "take" a picture...had them all move to one side to get them all in...LOL
Then, it moves to the Spanish Inquistion...spoof of a broadway dance number...Mel was Grand Inquistitor...
It ended with Louis the 17th...Miracle came to rescue at the End!
I love Mel Movies, Blazing Saddles! (A Black Sheriff? Cleavon Little) Robin Hood,Men in Tights ripped off that line. Life Stinks and other Movies were good. My favorite TO BE OR NOT TO BE with his wife Anne Bankcroft... Mel Brooks was a Visionary!
BTW Did Mel do Holy Moses with Lorraine Newman and Dudley Moore, that was funny movie...he could have had Moses Job, just didnt have the connections!
O.k.I am thru talking about sacreligous movies...now you know, conservative Envangelical UMC??? or (closet Liberal) I outted Myself here on the DPS Board!
~&$%$~ (This is my new unprouncable name) or Just call me The Preacher formally known and Clerically Blonde in West Ohio... (it has been a long week, got the sillies)
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 2:18:40 AM
Hi, I'm new to this discussion board - all this talk of when someone is filled with the Holy Spirit has set me thinking.... I wasn't brought up in a Christian family, I wasn't baptised as a child, I didn't go to Sunday School, but eventually in my Teens went to Scripture Union Camps and became a Christian then. I was baptised a couple of years later when I started attending the local Baptist Church. I'm sure the Holy Spirit was working in me long before I ever went to camp, for surely it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sins and our personal need for salvation through Jesus Christ? Revmother Scotland
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 5:11:22 AM
Nancy WI--I'm interested in the CubaVIM trip. If you would email me w/your address, I'll tell you why. lindakgar@yahoo.com
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 5:51:16 AM
@%^!$%(*@^ - or formally Clerically Blonde - I enjoyed your post. I've only seen bits of "History of the World, Part I" when it was on TV when I was over my cousin's house, so I didn't remember the scene of Leonardo Da Vinci taking the picture. That's just too funny.
That famous scene is an art critic's nightmare. Despite the fame of the artist, It's actually kitsch, partly because of the reason you named - like I'm SURE they were all on one side of the table, and milling about.
But it got me to thinking about kitsch - and its place in culture. First, let me be clear that I'm talking about "kitsch" as a cultural/artistic term, not as a derision. While some, like during Naziism (is that how you spell that?), was truly purposeful and diabolical, most is something of a reaction - when the culture is changing, or appears to be changing, kitsch makes a comeback. It's a reaction either against or for the pendulum swing: think black light posters, then think Kinkaid. While Kinkaid's are technically "art" and the posters weren't, neither represents a memory of life as it really is or was. It's conjecture, at best, and fantasy at worst. None of us live or have ever seen bucolic villages with inviting lights on at dusk, any more than we've seen horses rearing at the edge of cliffs during a fluorescent full moon (that was in my friend's room and I used to love to look at it).
Anyways, through this sort of "reflection" I'm thinking about my church and their insistence in remembering life as it never really was. Their neighborhood is changing, their lives are drawing to a close, their children and grandchildren have long moved away, racist values still persist - no wonder they tend to "remember" things that actually happened in the 1800's.
OK - sorry for such a long post - to get to the Scripture at hand... I wonder ... was reality more difficult for the disciples and people to accept than the "kitsch?" And what would be identified as the "kitsch?" Knowing that it pops up among those who are either changing the culture or reacting against a perceived change.
Sally in GA - (yes, I'm in my left brain today)
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 6:04:04 AM
Nancy in WI and @#$^$#@: The movie is from Mel Gibson, not Mel Brooks (ah-ha! now it makes more sense, eh? :) ) and I've read several previews on it. It promises to be fabulous - extremely graphic - true to scripture - and stunning in its depiction of the lengths Christ went to in order to seal the convenatn requirements for our sake. It's called "The Passion", and is set to come out in a few months. I suspect it is not for the faint-hearted .... but then, neither is our faith. Thank God we're empowered by the Holy Spirit! HSinON
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 6:37:16 AM
Dear Friends,
I am very impressed by the discussions this week. Yet to be honest, it all makes my head hurt. I relate to Revmother Scotland and her frustrations about such things. I know we need to struggle with the text and at least try to understand the when, where, what and other questions. But I am not sure we do it well. Academically we can be on target and yet turn people off. I am definately guilty of that myself. That's a confession and not a accusation.
Anyway, I would like to float my rough draft for this coming by anyone who would like to help me with it. I am avoiding most all technical questions about when the HS is bestowed on us because I believe other texts in Act and the epistles are more appropriate for that. Jesus' baptism is unique. How can we tell how that relates to us as Christians? I am also mindful that I have two churches with particular problems relating to leadership in particular the visible work of the church located in committees. Basically we have them on paper but not in functionality. At the same time we are wondering why we cannot grow.
So I am tieing Jesus baptism into that. I was on vacation last week so this is the first sermon of the year. You can read the sermon at:
http://www.rfci.net/bagpiper/20040111.htm
You can post comment here or send comments to bagpiper@rfci.net.
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine.
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 6:51:20 AM
Nancy in WI,
You asked about the Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of Jesus the Christ" which will be released on Feb. 25th, I believe. The information I have on it is this: it is in Aramaic and Latin, with English sub-titles. It is (supposedly) an entirely accurate look at the last 12 hours of Jesus' earthly life. It is gruesome and vivid, leaving nothing to the imagination. However, it does add dialogue that is not found in Scripture. It does not deal with the Resurrection, other than to allude to its happening.
I recently received a catalogue from Outlook (?) that actually has a DVD hidden inside that is a promo for "The Passion of Jesus the Christ". I haven't looked at it yet, mainly because I don't have a DVD player.
Mel Gibson is a "traditional" Catholic - Latin masses, KJV, very Scripture-oriented, considers himself very spiritual. He says he has been praying about this movie for years. In times of personal trials has contemplated on the Passion of the Lord to give him guidance, and wanted to bring this story in graphic form to the world. He sees it as a huge evangelism tool for Christians to invite non-Christians into a neutral place (movie theatre) to watch a movie that might just change their lives.
All this said, will I be going to see this movie? No, I will not. I decided a few months ago I don't need to actually visualize the torture my Savior endured to believe he died for my sins, and I am healed by his stripes. I believe it, sight unseen.
KyHoosierCat
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 7:27:59 AM
I'm in agreement with what KHC posted about about Mel Gibson's movie (and I'm tickled pink about the confusion between Mel Gibson and Mel Brooks -- I would much rather that Mel Brooks made a movie about Jesus, frankly!)
The promotional material KHC mentions is from Outreach -- mine just arrived. I have a DVD player in my home computer, so I plan to take it home and watch it. However, I do not plan to see the movie.
Just one point of correction -- I know that Gibson is sympathetic to the "traditional" Tridentine Rite Catholics and that his father is a member of one of those groups, but I'm not sure he is actually a member. Further, those groups don't use the KJV -- the Douay-Rheims English version is their preferred text (God Forbid! they should use a "protestant" translation, eh?)
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 8:07:38 AM
Eric, I gladly receive the "friendly amendment" to my post. You're absolutely right about the version of Scripture, etc... Thanks.
KHC
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 8:50:23 AM
Friends,
Re Mel Gibson's "The Passion of Christ," check out www.sermoncentral.com. There is a link near the top for more info on the movie, and in a left-hand sidebar of free stuff to download, there is a link for "Passion Sermons." Follow that, check it out, maybe subscribe to the free newsletter SermonCentral offers, and in it, you'll receive access to 3 or 4 different sermon series related to the movie. Can be downloaded in pdf formate for free. Suggested you use the sermons starting Mar. 21 and ending on Easter. I haven't read any of the sermons yet, but one is by Lee Strobel and one by John MacArthur, and many by others I don't know. Bios of the authors are provided in the pdf version.
I would also add that, even though WE might not feel the need to see the movie to be convinced, I as a pastor do think it's important to know what's "out there" that my parishioners are likely to see and be asking me for my thoughts on. I do expect I will attend for that reason. It opens Feb. 25, as someone mentioned, which is Ash Wed.
Heidi in MN
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 10:07:20 AM
I think that the discussion of the HS and Baptism raises the issue of when and how. Not just when and how we become Chrisitan, but when and how we become God's children.
I tend to think that God loves us and counts us as beloved from the moment we are created, not as we are baptized. Can someone get the Holy Spirit without being baptized? Of course. I don't think that God's love depends on a human ritual at all. Is someone loved by God without coming to faith? That's a harder quesiton for some, but I still think that the answer is yes.
I'm leaning towards the thought that Baptism (and even faith!) is a physical indication and revelation of the love of God that already exists and has existed forever.
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 10:08:19 AM
jw in tx
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 11:58:54 AM
Lots of places to dig into this one—many of which have been mentioned. The issues of Prevenient Grace/the Holy Spirit and Baptism is a fascinating one for me. Another one is John’s question about why Jesus should be baptized—for which of course I have no (good) answer.
However, I’m intrigued by what scripture and related doctrine mean when they speak of Jesus’ being “without sin” – a concept brought to mind (but not articulated) in this text. Sin is a term that is used in a whole variety of ways—separation from God, specific acts/attitudes, commission/omission, individual/corporate. Literally, it means “missing the mark (amarteo). When omission and corporate sin are tossed into the mix, what does it mean to suggest that any person engaged in human intercourse can be “sinless”?
West Texas Presbyterian
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 12:55:22 PM
KHC, YOU HAVE BEEN WAY TOO MANY... UMC CONFERENCES ROTFL! "Friendly Ammendment" comment...
~@#*#@~
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 1:57:04 PM
Wow, what a cool discussion...felt like replying to every post... just a few remarks:
1. Being raised a Quaker I was "dry cleaned" not water baptized...(Quakers rely on the belief that the essential baptism is Christ's, not John's - for a later discussion) so these comments come across as very refreshing and challenge me to find ways to make this spiritual baptism real to those who don't get dunked or sprinkled or misted.
2. I am going to see Mel's movie. I am fascinated by everything our culture puts forward as a way of explaining faith/Jesus/God/spirituality. Have you watched "Dogma", "Whale Rider?" "Bruce Almighty"? I sure understand why others may not want to see it however,
3. There is very cool clip in "Whale Rider" in which a father gives his newborn girl the name of the most revered tribal ancestor. The grandfather is appalled by it. The name should be saved to give to the next tribal [messiah]. I am going to show that clip in worship in affirming that God call us ALL to himself and gives us His name...even if we are not the prototypes for the next spiritual celebrity.
Thanks so much for your posts...I receive them as acts of love.
Stan in Tacoma
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 2:18:52 PM
I think that you mean the Mel Gibson movie about the life of Christ. I am looking forward to it myself. I understand that the Pope saw it and liked it too. PSINIA
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 4:10:49 PM
I appreciated KHC's reflections on the Holy Spirit being "With" or "Within" us. Sort of like "tag along" or "tug along." I prefer the "tug." Far too many of us find comfort in a "tag along" HS instgad of one that really pulls us towards God's grace and love.
I continue to celebrate the HS's activity which calls us to servanthood and justice ministries in society over against speaking on tongues. Both are important, but I'm convinced St. Peter will not emphasize on "What did you say?" rather "What did you do to help bring Christ's reign to the world?"
BTW, I continue to find "The Upper Room DISCIPLINES" very helpful both for preaching and devotion. "The Upper Room" is nice but too "thin" for me. For those who do not know, DISCIPLINES follows the RCL. Much meatier.
This week's series by Maxine Clarke Beach, dean of Drew Seminary in New Jersey is entitled "Fire and Water." Her daily "suggestions for meditation" provide informative and challenging questions relating to the texts.
Pastor Bud Immanuel United Methodist Church Saipan, CNMI
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 4:45:51 PM
hi folks,
i often like to use the poem/hymn by thomas troeger that i've pasted below in baptismal-themed services. i've slightly adapted it to make it work for a well known tune in my context, but i always find it helpful in my reflections so thought i'd post it here. it's from his book 'borrowed light'.
What King would wade through murky streams and bow beneath the wave, ignoring how the world esteems the powerful and the brave.
Christ gleams with water brown with clay from land the prophets trod. Above him while the clouds give way descends the dove of God.
Come bow with Christ beneath the wave. He stands here at your side and raises you as from the grave God raised him crucified.
Water, River, Spirit, Grace come and sweep over me; recarve the depths your fingers traced in sculpting, forming me.
cheers,
kc in sydney
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 5:09:36 PM
Dear Friends,
This is Warblings in NJ. I am writing to apologize for not responding to inquiries about a sermonette offered in a posting on the 2nd Sunday after Christmas - Ephesians Text. My hubby had a cardiac emergency that week and I forgot all about my posting. I didn't preach that Sunday so my mind was totally elsewhere. The sermonette can be used as a tie-in with Epiphany or with the general theme of "following Jesus." I've now posted the sermonette on the Ephesians contribution site for Jan 4th if anyone is still interested. Posting here and there seemed the best way to correct the situation. Blessings to all and prayers to Eric and his family... My hubby is doing well, thanks to God's provisions!
Warblings
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 5:13:29 PM
Dear Friends,
This is Warblings in NJ. I am writing to apologize for not responding to inquiries about a sermonette offered in a posting on the 2nd Sunday after Christmas - Ephesians Text. My hubby had a cardiac emergency that week and I forgot all about my posting. I didn't preach that Sunday so my mind was totally elsewhere. The sermonette can be used as a tie-in with Epiphany or with the general theme of "following Jesus." I've now posted the sermonette on the Ephesians contribution site for Jan 4th if anyone is still interested. Posting here and there seemed the best way to correct the situation. Blessings to all and prayers to Eric and his family... My hubby is doing well, thanks to God's provisions!
Warblings
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 5:15:30 PM
Pastor Bud,
Do you have the ability to scan or fax the material from Dean Beach found in the Upper Room Disciplines? I am interested in reading her work. Thanks for the referral to that resource - I'll look it up! I can be reached at ElaineWing@aol.com or faxed at 973 376-1695 if you can send the material.
Blessings,
Warblings
Warblings
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 5:16:18 PM
Oops! Fax for Warblngs is: 973 376-9594...
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 5:49:34 PM
What the heck - I'll join the chorus. I like Mel Brooke's movies too. I think it was in one of his where, towards the end, there was a scene in which there was a tent in which a Jewish Rabbi (played by Mel?) was doing circumcisions and a sign over the tent read "Today's special: half off". I thought it quite humerous.
Anyway, speaking of circumcision, the early Jewish Christians struggled with the idea of Gentiles becoming Christians without the need for circumcision - that is, following the Jewish Laws. Paul, i think it was, put them straight about that. Perhaps, in a similar vain, Jesus was baptised merely so he would fit in with the Jews and be acceptable and hearable. Not for his own benefit at all.
Jesus said a blind man wa blind not because of sin but that glory mught be brought to God when his vision is restored miraculously. Perhaps Jesus was baptised to bring glory to God in this special moment.
Who knows? and as some have suggested does it matter?
I'm a "the Holy Spirit is in us always" person myself, we just have to recognise it and that is when the moment of faith happens for us. Psalm 139 suggests this to me.
Lastly - yes, i'm almost done - have any of you noticed the interesting analogy to this reading that has occured this week. The Martian heavens opened and the Spirit descended (apparently the Mars Rover is called the Spirit) and no doubt voices were heard to say (from earth, not the heavens as such - although to a Martian...) after the safe landing "this is our 'baby' in which we are all pleased"!
Rev Chris in Australia
Date: 1/7/2004
Time: 7:52:19 PM
Let me join in the affirmation of this weeks discussion. It's been very fruitful in my parched orchard!
I am a UMC Pastor and a couple of years ago the UMC put out a statement concerning baptism in which it affirmed that Christian baptism was a rite of initiation. Part of the reason why in the UMC liturgy the parents of an infant answer questions AND the congregation answers questions. I personally love this aspect of baptism. In fact the moment my hand hits that water I am usually in tears, especially in the ritual of infant baptism. The fact that we join together in this community and nurture each other in Gods love and grace is literally the most powerful tool God uses to change us and change our world as we pray every week in the "Lord's Prayer" thy kingdom come...they will be done. Having said that... what if we saw Jesus' baptism as a way to express that he is "one of us". He doesn't HAVE to be baptised but he is anyway.
I also like the reference to the "water and fire" the water is a cleansing especially in Johns baptism of repentance, but the fire is that thing, that process, that refines us. Ahhhh the fires Jesus will face.... his home town calling him stupid.... people trying to throw him off a cliff... the temptation of the evil one in the wilderness... the temptation of Peter telling him to bag it all and just be king... the soldiers spitting on him... pilot's interigation... the cross...untill he is perfect on the third day. My fires and refining don't end with me revealed as fully God (As my wife will attest!) but they do serve to refine me in faith and in a relationship with that one who said through baptism "i'm God but I'm also part of you"
I know thats mostly heretical but it's only Wednesday. It's always a bummer to find out on Monday (well Tuesday, Monday is my day off) you were a heretic on Sunday. Just some ideas I'm kicking around
Mark in SW WA
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 5:23:52 AM
TO: Mark in SW WA From: Mike in Sunshine
As a fellow heretic, I salute you! In all seriousness before this year I had always been characterized as the voice of orthodoxy. Now because I am sticking to orthodox Christianity United Methodist style I am suddenly a liberal and a heretic. At first it really bugged me. Now I am standing tall. My aim is to be so Wesleyan that I am fired from the United Methodist Church! As the old 70's phrase went, I am "letting it all hang out".
Grace and peace, Mike in Sunshine
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 5:40:36 AM
Mark and Mike -- Maybe it's because I'm an Anglican to whom the concept of a "systematic" theology is foreign, but I fail to see anything heretical in Mark's comments. Baptized by water, yes; baptized by fire and the Spirit, yes; tested in the refiner's fire, fer shur! That's what the Christian life promises. Where's the heresy?
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 9:14:36 AM
In preparing for this week's sermon I ran across a sermon written by The Rev. Hugh Magers in 1998. He made the interesting point that five significant things happened to Jesus in baptism:
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 9:17:01 AM
In preparing for this week's sermon I read a sermon written by The Rev. Hugh Magers in 1998. He made the point that five significant things happened to Jesus in baptism: "(1) He was given an identity. . .God's son (2) He was identified as the focus of God's love (3)He was identified as being very pleasing to God (4) He was physically given God's Holy Spirit (5) He was joined into a new group, those who were baptized by John.
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 9:25:05 AM
In preparing for this week's sermon I read a short piece written by The Rev. Hugh Magers, an Episcopal priest, in 1998. He made the point that five significant things happened to Jesus in baptism: "(1) He was given an identity. . .God's son (2) He was identified as the focus of God's love (3)He was identified as being very pleasing to God (4) He was physically given God's Holy Spirit (5) He was joined into a new group, those who were baptized by John. We receive these same gifts when we are baptized. I'm going to attribute to Magers and then expand upon the five points for my sermon. You can read his find his document at http://www.episcopalchurch.org/sermons-that-work/980111sr.html. We don't have any baptisms this Sunday (darn!) but we have a roll-around baptismal font that is not very large so I think it would be good to place it front and center as we do for baptisms and invite those attending to touch the water on the way to receive communion. Blessings to all. . . Larry (Episcopal priest in Colorado)
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 9:29:01 AM
Pardon the double post. Larry in Colorado
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 10:18:58 AM
Somebody e-mailed this to me and I can't vouch for its authenticity, but it could explain Mel Gibson's motivation for making a movie about Jesus.
Creature Wayne
Here is a true story by Paul Harvey.
Interesting and inspiring. You will be surprised as to whom this young man turned out to be.
Years ago a hardworking man took his family from New York State to Australia to take advantage of a work opportunity there. Part of this man's family was a handsome young son who had aspirations of joining the circus as a trapeze artist or an actor. This young fellow, biding his time until a circus job or even one as a stagehand came along, worked at the local shipyards, which bordered on the worst section of town. As he was walking home from work one evening, five thugs who wanted to rob him attacked this young man. Instead of just giving up his money the young fellow resisted. However they bested him easily and proceeded to beat him to a pulp. They mashed his face with their boots, and kicked and beat his body brutally with clubs, leaving him for dead. When the police happened to find him lying in the road they assumed he was dead and called for the Morgue Wagon.
On the way to the morgue a policeman heard him gasp for air, and they immediately took him to the emergency unit at the hospital. When he was placed on a gurney a nurse remarked to her horror, that this young man no longer had a face. Each eye socket was smashed, his skull, legs, and arms fractured, his nose literally hanging from his face, all is teeth were gone, and his jaw was almost completely torn from his skull.
Although his life was spared he spent over a year in the hospital. When he finally left, his body may have healed but his face was disgusting to look at. He was no longer the handsome youth that everyone admired. When the young man started to look for work again, he was turned away because of his appearance. One potential employer suggested to him that he join the freak show at the circus as The Man Who Had No Face. And he did this for a while. He was still rejected by everyone and no one wanted to be seen in his company. He had thoughts of suicide. This went on for five years.
One day he passed a church and sought some solace there. Entering the church he encountered a priest who had seen him sobbing while kneeling in a pew. The priest took pity on him and took him to the rectory where they talked at length. The priest was impressed with him to such a degree that he said that he would do everything possible for him that could be done to restore his dignity and life, if the young man would promise to be the best Catholic he could be, and trust in God's mercy to free him from his torturous life.
The young man went to mass and communion every day, and after thanking God for saving his life, asked God to only give him peace of mind and the grace to be the best man he could ever be in His eyes. The priest, through his personal contacts was able to secure the services of the best plastic surgeon in Australia. There would be no cost to the young man, because the doctor was the priest's best friend. The doctor too was so impressed by the young man, whose outlook now on life, even though he had experienced the worst, was filled with good humor and love.
The surgery was a miraculous success. All the best dental work was also done for him. The young man became everything he promised God he would be. He was also blessed with a wonderful, beautiful wife, and many children, and success in an industry, which would have been the furthest thing from his mind as a career if not for the goodness of God and the love of the people who cared for him. This he acknowledges publicly.
The young man was and is Mel Gibson.
His life was the inspiration for his production of the movie "The Man Without A Face." He is to be admired by all of us as a God fearing man, a political conservative, and an example to all as a true man of courage.
And to think I admired him before I knew any of this! He is quite a man!
Paul Harvey
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 11:51:30 AM
That's an interesting story from Paul Harvey. I've been doing some 'research' on Mel Gibson since word of his Jesus movie got out (I wanted to know if it was going to be a serious effort or some kind of anti-Christian thing). In all I've read, I never read about his mangled face anywhere. He was 18 when he enrolled in Drama school, and he was known for his good looks there. All those injuries..... scars, more surgeries, etc....before plastic surgery was perfected....well, it just seems funny to me.
Not that this matters much, mind you. (Well, it probably matters to Mr. Gibson!)
KHC
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 11:51:58 AM
That's an interesting story from Paul Harvey. I've been doing some 'research' on Mel Gibson since word of his Jesus movie got out (I wanted to know if it was going to be a serious effort or some kind of anti-Christian thing). In all I've read, I never read about his mangled face anywhere. He was 18 when he enrolled in Drama school, and he was known for his good looks there. All those injuries..... scars, more surgeries, etc....before plastic surgery was perfected....well, it just seems funny to me.
Not that this matters much, mind you. (Well, it probably matters to Mr. Gibson!)
KHC
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 12:00:36 PM
A few last minute thoughts for the truly desperate :) A profound image during my junior high days of emerging faith comes from the Richard Bach book, Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah.
In the opening section of the book there is a mock journal that tells the story (I'm paraphrasing here) of a community of creatures living in a river. All they know is a life of clinging to rocks and twigs at the bottom. One chooses to let go lest he/she die of boredom. Surely the River knows wher it is going. The others laugh and prophecy pain and destruction for this rebellious act. Sure enough the initial launch is painful as the creature tumbles along the river bottom, but refusing to grab for safety the river lifts her/him up with the current. As other similar creatures downstream see the flying one approaching they cry out, "Look, one like us yet he flies." The response comes quickly, "the river delights to lift us free, just believe and let go.......but they are frightened and when they look again the Savior has slipped past and they are left with only stories of that awesome sight."
Could it be possible that Christ has decided to let go and start flying through the lives of those around him (Christological conundrum #3,895,671.38 what does it say to imagine that, as God, Christ also experienced the free will of choosing the path to the cross and that here we see his change of direction toward the umitigated revelation of the greatest power the world has ever seen despite the fact that this course was destined to bring great and very real pain and suffering.) - NOTE TO SELF - Please do not lose the real Jesus in the blur of the Holy Spirit and its "warped speed" of God's new reality (Too bad the Matrix missed that mark - my opinion) - I'll stop now before I slide into the babbling brook of baptism.......hmmmm the water's nice...
Peace, Cyrktrder64
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 12:04:30 PM
Sorry for the double post. Sorry for the double post.
KHC KHC
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 12:52:07 PM
I'm going to go back in the discussion a ways, and add the Lutheran liturgies for baptism and confirmation (titled "Affirmation of Baptism").
In the baptismal liturgy is the following prayer: "God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we give you thanks for freeing your sons and daughters from the power of sin and for raising them up to a new life through this holy sacrament. Pour your Holy Spirit upon (NAME): the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord, the spirit of joy in your presence."
We follow this by marking the sign of the cross on the person's forhead, saying "(NAME), child of God, you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and marked with the Cross of Christ forever."
In the Affirmation of Baptism, the following prayer is used: "Gracious Lord, through water and the Spirit you have made these (men and women) your own. You forgave them all their sins and brought them to newness of life. Continue to strengthen them with the Holy Spirit, and daily increase in them your gifts of grace: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord, the spirit of joy in your presence; through Jesus Christ, your Son, our Lord."
(Sound familiar?)
Then, with the laying on of hands, we pray, "Father in heaven, for Jesus' sake, stir up in (NAME) the gift of your Holy Spirit; confirm his/her faith, guide his/her life, empower him/her in his/her serving, give him/her patience in suffering, and bring him/her to everlasting life."
I, particularly, am hesitant to declare the instant of the coming of the Holy Spirit, as I don't believe we, as humans, can determine when that instant is. Does it begin in the womb, as the mother is surrounded by a congregation singing the faith in its hymns? I believe the Holy Spirit works before, during, and after the performance of the rite of the sacrament, no matter which practice of baptism is followed.
Sorry I'm so late in responding to those early questions. I firmly believe God has promised to be present in the sacraments, so that we can NOT say that the Holy Spirit is not there, and does not come until some later time. However, it MAY take a while before our ears pick up on the workings of the Spirit, so that we can respond. Always best to be in the environment of faith, easier to hear more quickly.
Come to think of it, that might be my sermon...
Michelle
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 1:08:30 PM
While we understand our baptism as being baptized into Christ (and consequently our sins being washed away), perhaps we should understand Jesus' baptism incarnationally, he was baptized into the sins of humanity. Only by him becoming fully human can we be saved through his death and resurrection
LK in PA
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 1:47:57 PM
On the subject of Mel Gibson and Paul Harvey. The story is a hoax. The following link will give the rest of the story. Be sure to read page 2. RevIsrael
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 1:54:28 PM
~&$%$~ or CB in OH well you sure opened the feeling box with the Mel Brooks stuff! Me too, I love his stuff, who cares if it is off the wall, that is what makes it.
My 2 cents says this is a theophany in Luke, which means listen up, seriously this is the man(GOD).
I remember the old John Prine song, Dear Abby, when all her responses were, so listen up buster and listen up good!
This is a wonderful transition text that says the sweet little Jesus Boy (hate that anthem) is more powerful than a locomtive (whoops wrong superhero) no is really the one who is to come!!! He has Messiah written all over him (funny contrast to word made flesh!)
Great posts this week, happy sermon writing. Eric I really liked your B of O Lord sermon. Peace, Pbob in SC (old retired Army Chaplain)
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 2:07:49 PM
You may know it already, but I can't think about baptism without these lyrics by Steven Curtis Chapman entering my head.
DIVE
The long awaited rains Have fallen hard upon the thirsty ground And carved their way to where The wild and rushing river can be found And like the rains I have been carried here to where the river flows yeah My heart is racing and my knees are weak As I walk to the edge I know there is no turning back Once my feet have left the ledge And in the rush I hear a voice That’s telling me it’s time to take the leap of faith So here I go
I’m diving in I’m going deep in over my head I want to be Caught in the rush lost in the flow in over my head I want to go The river’s deep the river’s wide the river’s water is alive So sink or swim I’m diving in
There is a supernatural power In this mighty river’s flow It can bring the dead to life And it can fill an empty soul And give a heart the only thing Worth living and worth dying for yeah But we will never know the awesome power Of the grace of god Until we let ourselves get swept away Into this holy flood So if you’ll take my hand We’ll close our eyes and count to three And take the leap of faith Come on let’s go
Submitted for your approval....
BroKen
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 2:09:25 PM
...and now for the rest of the story (i mean the link)http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa071200a.htm
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 3:38:21 PM
I read an excellent review about the Passion by Mel Brooks. Sorry, I can't remember the website right now, but it has been called: "lifechanging". "There was not a dry eye in the theatre"...."You will never be the same after seeing this movie"... This past week on the news, the Pope gave his approval after a privite showing. He said it was "very moving". I can't wait to see it. It will be released on Ash Wednesday, Mel's request. LS
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 3:45:45 PM
At our Confirmation Last night, four area UMC Churches are combining our Confirmation Clss. We have 43 kids involved 8th and 9th graders. In the UMC Confirmation resource "Claim the Name"... they recommend the "baptism scene" from the Lion King. I may use that as part of "baptism of our Lord" Sunday.
It's pretty powerful for a "cartoon" showing we are all connected!
Check it out...
pulpitt in ND
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 4:09:19 PM
My dearest Pastors
As some of you may have observed, my participation in the discussion is from m former time as pastor, and my present time of occasional sermons and reflection on days gone by.
I served one time with a very liturgical senior pastor. A very important time for him was the Sunday after Epiphany, the Baptism of our Lord. He had a special stole made for that service, and looked forward to being able to lead that service every year. This Sunday coming is a special Sunday for me as I reflect on the Baptisms that I have been used by God to perform. I have looked through the pictures that families have asked me to pose for. I even was asked by my children to Baptise a grandchild.
Then I remembered how, in preparing for my ordination, I asked my mother to reflect with me on my Baptism. First she reminded me that for health reasons surrounding my birth, the doctors had said she wouldn't live, and she was grateful to God for allowing her to live, so she could be present at my Baptism. She said the person who was to be my godmother didn't show up, and a woman who never had children of her own, but had been like a mother to her stepped forward and said she wanted to be my godmother. Much of my pastoral ministry was based on my godmother's faith, and her nurturing spirit. God called her to be my godmother. I now see how God's presence and God's call has always been there.
So I took out those pictures this week of children and adults that God has allowed me to baptise, and as a pastor, I remember my baptisms and I am truly thankful. Pastors, sometimes it gets hard, and your congregations can sometimes be difficult, but be thankful that God called you, and you have this opportunity to serve. Serve with love, gentleness, and compassion
James Weldon Johnson once wrote a poem called "The Creation." It is his rendition of a preacher telling the Genesis story, he ends it as follows, as to how God created humanity:
"Up from the bed of the river God scooped the clay; And by the bank of the river He kneeled Him down; And there the great God Almighty Who lit the sun and fixed it in the sky, Who flung the stars to the most far corner of the night, Who rounded the earth in the middle of His hand; This Great God, Like a mammy bending over her baby, Kneeled down in the dust Toiling over a lump of clay Till He shaped it in His own image;
Then into it He blew the breath of life, And man became a living soul. Amen. Amen."
I'm so grateful for my Baptisms, and I am
Bammamma
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 4:24:08 PM
As I was growing up... and even to this day... I can imagine somewhat what the HEAVEN'S opening up looks like. It usually happens after a good rain... sheets of sunlight streaming down through the clouds... usually gray. It's as if someone stuck their hand in a cloud "dike" and ripped a hole in it... the light just streams through from the heaven's above... you can imagine that can't you?
I was told that was called "Heaven's Countenance!"
Enjoying the discussion as always,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 4:26:08 PM
AS KyHoosierCat suggested, "Now that we have seen the light" last week...
ARE WE WILLING TO DIVE IN AND GET WET!
with grins,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 4:51:19 PM
I know, I know, these should be elsewhere... it was just easier to put them here...
Baptism of our Lord Worship Prayers...
Call to Worship: (Responsively)
We have seen the Star of Epiphany.
We are now led to the shoreline of the future.
Jesus goes before us to show us that the water is just right for us to dive into pristine waters with our bodies soiled with hatred, bigotry, and intolerance.
We dive in, hoping to be cleansed while we wonder how deep the water is and whether or not we'll have enough skill and strength to swim closer to You. Pull us your way to safety this day and always.
Prayer to Center Ourselves in God's abundant Grace (unison) A pebble disappears below the surface of the water, which leaves ever widening circles and ripples of influence. The rings grow as we grow and touch others lives. So too at our baptism, our family surrounds us with that kind of support holding us in the nurturing arms of Your Love, O God. Splash us awake so that we might sprinkle that Love with everyone we meet. We ask as we soak up your Grace and love abundantly each day. -Amen-
Prayer of Dedication (Unison) God is pleased with you; God is pleased with me. We are all precious in God's sight. No one is left on the edge when it comes to our Faith. Our gifts flow out from the center of our being. Bless these gifts and use them to further saturate the world with the promise of Your Love. Accept each gift given out of our faithfulness and thankfulness, in Christ's name we pray. -Amen-
Sending Forth (Unison) May we go forth as "skipping stones" across the waters of trouble and dams of resistance! May they break through with gushing love and waterfalls of love spraying white caps of love and acceptance of all of God's children. We go forth seeking deep wells of Your peace. -Amen-
Written by Rev. Rick Pittenger aka pulpitt in ND ;?)
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 5:04:29 PM
which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
Which comes first, the leading of the Spirit, or the presence of the Son at Creation, or Creation itself?
I say, let's skip the conundrum and celebrate that God is alive and acts in three persons!
Sally in GA
Date: 1/8/2004
Time: 8:32:07 PM
I really liked Rev Chris in Australia's reference to the Mars spacecraft "Spirit" and have used it in my half-finished sermon.
A couple of points to consider: 1. The NASA team's hopes for their creation might be something like this: "Now, go, baby, go! Please don't break down or get lost. Keep in contact." I wonder if this might be similar to God's hopes for the newly-launched Messiah, and for all of us. 2. When we are "launched" in our baptismal lives, we have a feature that NASA would consider a design flaw: the ability to reject the mission, to say "I don't want to," to rebel. What was then created to be part of a mission winds up as inoperative space junk, or in biblical terms, chaff.
On a more positive note, I have a baptism on this day: for Caleb, younger brother of Joshua! I can't resist some reference to crossing the Jordan with these two great names.
I am so grateful to be part of this conversation. I learn so much from all of you. Grace and peace, LF
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 4:54:02 AM
Boy, I sure Hope Mel Gibson doesn't see how many of us have goofed and attributed his movie to the other guy.
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 5:31:08 AM
If it WERE a Mel Brooks movie, it might appeal to a wider audience! As it is, I figure the audience will be mostly people who are already believing Christians.
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 9:18:09 AM
Eric in OH,
I'm late in logging on this week and haven't yet waded through all of the contributions so probably someone has already submitted this & I haven't found it yet.
The actual liturgy for confirmation in the UM Book of Worship reads, "_____,the Lord defend you with his heavenly grace and by his Spirit confirm you in the faith and fellowship of all true disciples of Jesus Christ." Or at least that's what it says in Baptismal Covenant III, which is what I use. I believe that is similar to Anglican liturgy and yes, much of our liturgy IS from earlier versions of the Book of Common Prayer. I thank God for our Anglican roots. If it were not for those roots I'm not sure that American Methodism would have clung to a sacramental understanding of Eucharist and Baptism.
Robbie in KS
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 9:18:20 AM
Eric in OH,
I'm late in logging on this week and haven't yet waded through all of the contributions so probably someone has already submitted this & I haven't found it yet.
The actual liturgy for confirmation in the UM Book of Worship reads, "_____,the Lord defend you with his heavenly grace and by his Spirit confirm you in the faith and fellowship of all true disciples of Jesus Christ." Or at least that's what it says in Baptismal Covenant III, which is what I use. I believe that is similar to Anglican liturgy and yes, much of our liturgy IS from earlier versions of the Book of Common Prayer. I thank God for our Anglican roots. If it were not for those roots I'm not sure that American Methodism would have clung to a sacramental understanding of Eucharist and Baptism.
Robbie in KS
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 9:19:31 AM
Oops, sorry for the double post. Robbie in KS
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 10:19:34 AM
What wonderful ideas and conversation!!! I was wondering if any of you UMC ministers might have an electronic version of your re-affirmation of baptism that you could email? I would love to include it in my service this week! My email is lholzbaur@aol.com. Thanks! UCC minister in NJ
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 10:29:05 AM
I wonder if the HS baptism has something to do with the Jewish liturgy of purification. Even though I was raised Jewish, I don't know all of the cleanliness codes. Perhaps this was a type of initiation rite to his ministry not his personhood, which was already known to God but had to be shown to the "world". So, God made it a Sacrament.
NMinCO
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 11:51:24 AM
Well i think I'm going with the God is part of us idea and linking it to a reaffirmation of our baptism. The title will be. "you know you are close when you used to take baths together as little kids" I'll be illustrating the closeness my family and another share and when ever we get together there is an inevidable comment about "ya our kids used to take baths together" although we kids hate that conversation they are still some of my closet and dearest friends. I'll then make the connection to the cleansing of baptism and the journey we take together through the refiners fire with Jesus by our side. We will then each grab a seashell out of the baptism font as we leave the service to remind us.
Mark in SW wa
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 3:21:28 PM
Our conference journals came (finally) and while looking through it, I ran across a Wesley quote:
"Look up for a fresh supply of grace."
That's going to be my (admittedly simple) theme. Being baptized is a wonderful, miraculous event that most of us promptly put aside. Without the Holy Spirit's intervention, it would be a one-time thing, or necessary to repeat over and over, unless we (to quote our Book of Worship) "remember (y)our baptism and be grateful." Therefore, look up for a fresh supply of grace.
Remember where grace is from, that it is unearned, and that it descends as dove or fire or tongues... and that to look up is to relinquish control.
As usual I've been a bit off-beat this week, but I ended up coming around. Thanks, everyone.
Sally
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 4:50:08 PM
Well, after reading all the posts, it appears I'm going out on a limb again. I must be the only pastor not preaching about baptism or the HS. Since I spent a whole sermon on the baptism thing a few weeks ago when we baptized one of our little ones, I feel the need to wait a while before delving into the topic again.
I was struck by good old John the B himself, willing to put himself second so Jesus could be first. I plan to talk about "The Greatest Second Banana" and laud several in the Biblical and secular world who did well living in the shadows of someone else. After all, aren't we all playing second fiddle to someone?
Peace & blessings
Rich in Bama
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 6:29:22 PM
Have pity on me you all! LOL Here I am writing orders (due next week) and preparing to go to Cuba. sorry for any and all the confusion about the movie maker. mmmm wonder what would happen if Gibson and Brooks made the movie together.
Good discussion! Sorry not to contribute! Keep me in your prayers! This discerment stuff is tough after you get out of school Nancy-Wi
Date: 1/9/2004
Time: 8:28:43 PM
Sorry Sally,
But I guess that the conundrum IS the point to me as I seek to trsnslate the Trinity to a community largely influence by a mono-valent/homogeneous level. Skipping this step allows many to simply accept the batismal gift (Note to other UMs who might agree that confirmation often only serves to acknowledge a parental/congregational "rite of passage" opposed to the genuine faith step that marks "letting go") ...as club access to the bounteous grace that is extended only as far as Hebrew expectation might have imagined (Thanx Eric for your fine exposition). I guess I hope that the image I offered opened a broader perspective of hope to those who are longing to trust the unseen future of the river in their struggle with the established promise of the new Hebrews that populate our churches. No risk, only the promise that if we hang on long enough we will make the final cut...
I am interested in the struggle to turn another direction (did Jesus feel this long before the desert?) away from the security of a God who manages things to the true activation of the Trinity's work through Jesus' example and the ability of each one to pattern their lives accordingly. Some late posts have noted that this transition extends the dialogue far beyond the act of Jesus' baptism, which should always make the head spin a bit, to the realization that following water comes fire...blazing away at the things that would call us to cling more closely for safety and security....sounds like the church's death pangs to me...
It's as if flying on the current of love means, again, watching and recalling all that God has done and will do rather than actively participating in the process of radical discovery of where God might lead....OOOPS that might just mean crosses, tombs, and ?????????????????????? a true celebration of the Trinity's work today, tomorrow, always...
Thanks for stirring my pot :), Cyrktrder64
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 6:58:49 AM
John Stendahl talks about the baptism in terms of vocation at www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showarticle?item_id=685. (I hope I copied that right...) He talks about the baptism as the occassion of Jesus' calling (and our's as well). Here are some good quotes:
"...The calling of Jesus is not about a job or career. It is not a word of mission, sending him into the future. Not at the outset. The word of baptism is first of all about the delight of God in this beloved, this chosen, this child called by name. Not a call to do, but a calling that names....
"As for Jesus, so for us. Our first calling, the baptismal call, is the one that simply loves and names: You are my child. I delight in you. The words embrace us and promise to hold us. This is where it begins, and this is also, we dare claim, the last word, the one that holds our future....
"Yet even when our callings seem hard to sort out or beyond our ability to fulfill, even in the day of failure and betrayal, I pray to remember again the calling that comes first and last. The tasks and duties do matter, but what abides --our identity, our belonging, our hope-- is heard here by the waters. You are my child, beloved, delight."
I think of my own daughter, college age, who is struggling with her sense of call, and feeling anxious and pressured about what she is going to "do" with her life. Many high school and college age students feel this pressure. But most of US didn't figure out what we were going to "do" until we were out of college, maybe even half way through graduate school. If we can help them to focus on who they are and to whom they belong, rather than what they are going to "do", the rest will unfold eventually.
But another question still remains for me, how do I convince my confirmation class that God loves them (that they are God's beloved children), besides simply telling them? That's not really something you can convince a person... But that's where we have to start, and without it, all the other teaching is empty. I'm praying for them, but what else, beyond that?
DGinNYC
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 10:03:10 AM
Gentle Souls, I haven’t been active in the discussion since December, but I keep up with your ruminations/questions/passions with regular visits—and am always fascinated and touched by the diversity of viewpoint and pastoral concerns. After experiencing our 11th Annual St. Dismas Children’s Christmas Party (for about 400 “needy” kids , and then experiencing my 36th anniversary as (an Episcopal) priest on the Epiphany—and then reading so many of your wonderful posts…well, all of it reminded me, once again—in the context of this week’s Gospel—of what I mentioned in December: “…the monk, Toby McCarroll, once said, ‘All we really have to share are our stories.’” In my early old age, I grow weary of endless “guesses” of or literary allusions to when God does this or that, when folks are sanctified, inspirited, how or when it exactly happens—even though most of us were taught and trained in that process. I’m not so sure our people—our fellow-travelers through the maze of life—care so much about Mel Gibson or Mel Brooks (though I prefer the latter), but want to hear “the rest of the story” about what we’ve experienced in our own hearts, souls, and life about being “inspirited” in life’s struggle. That, I think, is the power of Barbara Brown Taylor’s sermons…and the power of what you share, clearly, on this site. I know that sharing your stories to struggling companions can be “risky” or “dangerous,” but that’s clearly (to me) what the Nazarene is beckoning. Thanks for listening…thanks for your stories…thanks for the journey together! Fr. Tom, OCW
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 2:04:54 PM
Probably too late for anyone to catch my two cents worth, but I have heard two things about the Mel Gibson movie -- first that it is strongly anti-semitic and second that all kinds of miracles have occurred on the set. Both turned me off instantly. JFK in ND
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 2:37:50 PM
From: www.snopes.com Claim: Mel Gibson was the inspiration for the film The Man Without a Face. Status: False. Origins: This is a piece too inane even for glurgemeister Paul Harvey. Suffice it to say that someone has taken the framework of Mel Gibson's biography and built upon it a touching but completely fictitious house of glurge.
See the rest at... http://www.snopes.com/glurge/noface.htm
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 3:45:38 PM
Just a couple of thoughts regarding the baptism in general and the baptism of Christ. John the Baptist had some harsh words for some of the people who came to hear him preach (verses 7 - 14). They remind me a little of Randy Travis' song, "Pray For the Fish," about the baptism of a town bad boy.
This is a little late for the discussion but might be a thought for someone. Somewhere (it might have been here), I heard someone suggest that the purpose for Christ's baptism might be like taking a clean towel and dipping it in dirty water. With all these sinful people going in to be baptized to get clean, maybe the One who was clean from the start had to come into contact with our sins (into contact with but not tainted by) in order to die for us. Last minute ponderings. Mike from Soddy Daisy, TN.
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 4:58:04 PM
Yes Tammy, yes!!
We don't control the Holy Spirit. We may in our rituals highlight what is happening in our lives, but the Holy Spirit doesn't come only when we call (though we need to call, don't we). We Disciples of Christ usually baptise in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit, and sometimes even use the phrase, "receive the holy spirit," but I can't claim that that's when we first receive the holy spirit into our life. After all, doesn't God breathe the breath (spirit) of life into us?
I'm really getting a late start. Thanks for all of your insights, though I haven't read many yet.
I'm going with being claimed by God, as one of you mentioned earlier and linking with Isaiah. But I'm really bogged down at 5:00 on Saturday evening.
Pam in San Bernardino
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 5:13:03 PM
Hey Pam - I'm right there with you! Blessings on our evening musings
Kathie in Vancouver, WA
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 5:35:27 PM
Bammamma: Thank you for your post. You write: "your congregations can sometimes be difficult, but be thankful that God called you, and you have this opportunity to serve. Serve with love, gentleness, and compassion." That is where I am at this time, and I thank you for your words. I need constant reminding of that fact: God called me, and to paraphrase our OT and Gospel readings for this week: "God has called me by name ~ I am the Beloved." It is late, and my sermon is far from ready, but I have gleaned much from you, my cyber-friends. God bless you all. pbetty
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 6:09:28 PM
Hey Pam, we could start a party for late night thinkers. I'll bring the ice. The HS does move us sometimes better than others. I still go by the adage that if it wasn't for the last minute, I'd never get anything done. My mother used to comment that when the spirit moved me, I'd finish something. We do hear about spirits more than we used to. As a matter of fact there's a store in town that says that it sells wine and spirits. I guess that people don't like to believe that there are things in this world that they cannot quantify. I do like ole Martin's comment about I am baptized. That it was a process of faith. I too look for the spirit here. take care Sylvia in Iowa
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 7:48:08 PM
Well, it is nice to know I'm not the only one still working (though, by now, I might be!). Had an officers training retreat all day -- sucked up a lot of the week to prepare. Thanksfully, I'm one of those who has combined the Isaiah with this and talking about our own vocations and being called by name by God ... it fit well with today's devotions and whole theme. TOmorrow we ordain/install new elders and deacons (PLUS communion -- I was looking for a partridge in a pear tree, but they were all out). So, the vocation theme seems to fit.
Thanks DG in NYC for the Stendahl quotes. Barbara Brown Taylor does some lovely work also, as does Frederick Buechner with his definition of vocare, to call. Ah, it's going to be a late night. mm in pa
Date: 1/10/2004
Time: 10:36:40 PM
For you shall be in league with the stones of the field, and the wild animals shall be at peace with you. You shall know that your tent is safe, you shall inspect your fold and miss nothing. You shall know that your descendants will be many, and your offspring like the grass of the earth. You shall come to your grave in ripe old age, as a shock of grain comes up to the threshing floor in its season. See, we have searched this out; it is true. Hear, and know it for yourself." Job 5:23-27
"Inspected by..."
As we anticipate the coming of the Christ-child at Christmas, I recall an experience that renewed my Spirit, well, not just mine; but I think those in attendance were also moved by four-year-old Lucas, who was baptized. He was serious, respectful; almost reverent in the way he handled it. When I asked him to kneel; he got down on his knees in front of the altar railing. I dipped my hand in the water of God's grace; and as I moved it toward him, his big brown eyes of trust met mine as drops of love-laden water darkened his shirt as they found a rich welcome for their wetness.
Following the baptism, he reached out and took hold of my hand and together we walked down the aisle hand in hand; his face beaming God's love; as he looked up at me and out to the congregation.
It was infectious. Not a face wore a frown as we passed by.
Upon our return up front, I handed him his Bible and his Baptism Certificate...he looked at his mom as if to say, "LOOK MOM, MY VERY OWN BIBLE!" With excitement he slid his certificate into the Bible for safekeeping.
As the family made their way to their seats; I invited Lucas to join me at the door at the close of the service so that people could shake his hand and let him know of this congregation's love for him.
As he stood at my side, he put his hands in his pants pockets and pulled out a couple of slips of small white paper; fortune cookie sized papers; with a quizzical look on his face he asked, "What are these for?" (They were the "inspection " tags found in new garments.) "Those? Why, those are to remind you that you've been inspected and APPROVED by God!" With the confident swagger only a four-year-old can muster, he put his hands back into his pockets as he waited for the congregation to shake his hand. The people began to exit the sanctuary. Lucas shook hands with each person that passed by him that morning.
"Congratulations!" "Welcome!" "Good Luck to you!" "My what a handsome young man you are!" "You are so cute" "You are so precious, adorable, etc!" "What a smile!" "You've got a great smile!" are just some of the expressions given to Lucas on the day of his baptism. Lucas will remember them throughout his life. "Inspected by, approved, and LOVED by God!"
That's what baptism is all about, experiencing God's love through affirmations that will live in Lucas's memory always.
Other stories can be found at http://faithumcfargo.com/archived_pulpitts.htm
Enjoy,
pulpitt in ND
Date: 1/15/2004
Time: 5:19:47 AM
I see a connection between baptism and dying (as in Romans 6). Remember that "baptise" means "drown". By being baptised, Jesus was drowning, or dying, to all sinful, selfish, human aspirations (soon to be tested by Satan in thw wilderness). He was later to refer to the "cup of suffering" he must drink and the "baptism" that he must undergo, referring obviously to his death. The life of Jesus was one long baptism (death) after another as he continuously lived for others. This is the life (or death) he calls us to. "Deny yourself, take up your cross daily and follow me." That is how we live out our baptism. Christ calls us to a cross, not a cushion! WokDownUnder