Date: 2/4/2004
Time: 11:27:40 AM
From the mountain top to the depths of human pain. I would rather stay on the mountain top, but I know that God calls us to go down the mountain, God calls us to as disciples to have faith and hear the crys of humanity. Nancy-Wi
Date: 2/8/2004
Time: 11:47:15 PM
In one of Steven King's earliest novels, "Salem's Lot" there is a scene where the local priest confronts a great evil (King most have been reading Graham Greene, because the priest is pretty much just going through the motions). When this priest cries out for help and holds a crucifix out, he feels power going through his arm- but either he simply cannot believe this is happening, or he can't hold on, and he is defeated.
The disciples have seen the power that is in Christ, they have seen him conversing with Moses (law) and Elijah (prophets) but they seem to have no power at their disposal to heal those in the valley. Maybe they just hadn't been paying attention!
How much attention have we been paying to the power for healing that comes from Christ?
It's a lot more fun to play on the mountaintop (Kum by Yah, My Lord, Kum By Yah) then to mess with sick and hurting people.
revgilmer in texarkana
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 2/10/2004
Time: 8:33:48 AM
love to sing and I love to pray, Worship the lord most every day. I go to the temple, and I just want to stay To hide from the hustle of the world and it’s ways.
And i’d Love to live on a mountain top, Fellowshipping with the lord. I’d love to stand on a mountain top, ’cause I love to feel my spirit Soar....
But I’ve got to come down >from the mountain top To the people in the valley below; They’ll never know That they can go To the mountain of the lord.
Now praising the father is a good thing to do, To worship the trinity in spirit and truth. But if we worshipped all of the time, Well, there would be no one to lead the blind.
But i’d Love to live on a mountain top, Just fellowshipping with the lord. And I’d love to stand on a mountain top, ’cause I love to feel my spirit Soar.... (soar....)
But I’ve got to come down >from the mountain top To the people in the valley below; They’ll never know That they can go To the mountain of the lord.
I am not saying that worship is wrong, But worship is more than just singin’ some songs, ’cause it’s all that we say and everything that we do; It’s letting god’s spirit live through you.
Still, i’d Love to live on a mountain top Fellowshipping with the lord. I’d love to stand on a mountain top, ’cause I love to feel my spirit Soar.... (soar....)
Yeah, I know it's been overused, but this Amy grant song still seems to speak to our confusion about what real holiness is all about. The church I grew up in used a general call to communion that went something like this "You that are in love and charity with your neighbor and that henceforth promise to live a godly and holy life, draw nigh with Love. I don't think living a godly and holy life means that you spend all your time in church services, but in service to others (If anyone knows the actual quote that I remember only dimly, I would appreciate it if you would post it here. I think it's form an older worship service in the Methodist church)
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 2/11/2004
Time: 2:12:04 PM
Today's reading offers a remarkable conclusion to the Epiphany season and turns us toward Lent. The transfiguration of Jesus is itself a great epiphany or manifestation. In the very midst of this event is talk of what will happen in Jerusalem, where Jesus must suffer and die.
In Luke 9.27, Jesus tells his disciples that some of them "will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." Eight short days later, Peter, John, and James witness Jesus' transfiguration on a mountaintop. As Jesus is praying, Moses and the prophet Elijah appear with him. This event is vibrant revelation of God's power in Christ.
Despite this amazing moment, Peter, John, and James find themselves overwhelmed with sleep. Peter groggily suggests that they build three booths, one each for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. But this is not a time to stop and commemorate; there is so much more to be revealed. As Peter is speaking, a fog covers them and they are terrified when a voice from the cloud announces that Jesus is the chosen one and commands the disciples to listen to him (9.35). When the fog lifts, Jesus is alone again with the disciples. The disciples tell no one (9.36).
Though this scene is so out of the ordinary, we can relate to some themes. Everyone goes through times when there are more questions than answers. How are we called to speak God's powerful and comforting message into foggy and confusing times? How can we "listen to him" and invite others to do the same?
Whether God's grace shines into our lives through ordinary events or vibrant epiphanies, God's presence offers us a glimpse of the resurrection promise. The light that shone over the humble Judean town of Bethlehem now shines in Jesus' transfiguration. Here we stand at the halfway point between Jesus' baptism in the river Jordan and his resurrection at Easter. What was spoken to Jesus at the river is now proclaimed on the mountaintop, "This is my Son, the Chosen; listen to him" (9.35).
Date: 2/12/2004
Time: 7:22:30 AM
One of the interesting angle which we usually overlook is "Why did Jesus take the disciples up the mountain for?" The text said, "to pray"! Not to demonstrate God's glory to them (that was only a side-effect). God's glory is revealed as people observe how we pursue knowing God with our life.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 2/15/2004
Time: 2:08:06 PM
To revgilmer in texark:
The Methodist Hymnal, 1932, 1935, 1939:
"Ye that do truly and earnestly repent of your sins, and are in love and charity with your neighbors, and intend to lead a new life, following the commandments of God, and walking from henceforth in His holy ways, draw near with faith, and devoutly kneeling make your humble confession to Almighty God."
from PaideiaSCO in north GA mts.
Date: 2/15/2004
Time: 4:55:22 PM
I think of the Transfiguration as God's personal confirmation of Jesus. He had been baptized, received the approval of God, and with that, he began his ministry of preaching and teaching the Word. With his Confirmation (Transfiguration) he began the work of being the Savior, beginning the road to Jerusalem. This was the start of the more committed, point-of-no-return decision to carry out the work and all that meant. God was giving him the boost of assurance that this was indeed the plan, and that he was exactly who he thought he was. It was time to move on to the more difficult road.
Listen to him, God thunders from above. He is the only voice I want you to hear. He epitomizes the perfect law and is the fulfillment of all the prophecies. Jesus, I mark you approved and appointed and confirmed. Now go and give yourself completely.
Date: 2/15/2004
Time: 6:09:14 PM
The invitation to confession sought be revgilmer and found by Padeia in some relatively recent Methodist Hymnals is much, much older. Its origin is in the First Book of Common Prayer of 1549. It has been in every BCP (and derivatives, such as the Methodist worship texts) since. It is the work of Thomas Cranmer, first Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury and one of the truly great liturgists in the church's history.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 2/15/2004
Time: 6:15:42 PM
With the anonymous poster who suggested that with the Transfiguration Jesus "began the the work of being the Savior, beginning the road to Jerusalem," I would most strongly disagree. The world of being the Savior began with his Incarnation and Nativity.... the Transfiguration is not the beginning.
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 2/15/2004
Time: 9:27:13 PM
There seems to be a tendency to critique the actions of the disciples regarding their response to Christ transfiguration. Yes Peter wanted to build shrines to Jesus Moses and Elijah, but he did come down with Jesus, and observed along with Jesus James and John, that the other disciples (who were not on the mountaintop) were unable to do the healing.
I remember the words of M. L. King right before he died, he gave his testimony, and then he said “ Don’t worry about me, I’ve been to the mountaintop, and I have seen the promise land! I know he was referring to Moses experience at the end of his life, but it is the confidence and encouragement that remains with me.
There is something to be said about mountaintop experiences, and praying so long until one’s face radiates. Communication with the Lord makes work in the valley like “seeking the kingdom first, and all these other things will be added." Going up the mountain with Jesus is where we learn to heal. It is a good place to go. Sometimes I think we get so caught up in our responsibilities that we aren’t aware this is God’s work, and not ours.
Shalom
Bammamma
Date: 2/16/2004
Time: 6:40:26 AM
Just a quick note -
At the top of the mountain were disciples who wanted to pray and do no work.
At the bottom of the mountain were disciples who wanted to work without praying (see Mark 9:29).
JG in WI
Date: 2/16/2004
Time: 12:54:22 PM
To anonymous poster who quotes Sundays in Season,
I really feel that you should consider giving credit and citing your source unless you are the original listed contributor, then you are probably under a contractual arrangement to at lest print their permission for you to cite it again in this forum.
This is a matter of integrity.
Pr. del in Ia
Date: 2/16/2004
Time: 5:44:04 PM
Thanks, Coho! I now have my sermon title, "Transformed by Prayer". and my direction. Toni
Date: 2/16/2004
Time: 7:20:32 PM
Sermon for Transfiguration Sunday: "Sunscreen and Shades". Grace and Peace, Oklahoma Irishman.
Date: 2/16/2004
Time: 7:28:15 PM
Or How about "Bipolar Christianity" as a topic?
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 3:59:32 AM
I don't have a lot of new insight into this passage which we read each year, but I would offer that to me this was a turning point for the disciples, not for Jesus.
I get the feeling that Luke is describing a more common experience than we would normally ascribe to the Transfiguration.
It is that point, where we see through Jesus, to the God beyond him. In that moment, we see beyond the human outline, into the very wonder of God. It is that moment, when the human Jesus, becomes a conduit for us to see the divine of his life.
Unfortunately it is often our arrogance and ignorance that stop us from encountering this experience very often. We simply do not want to, or are unwilling to, contemplate the magnificence of God.
Recently I got my eyes checked and discovered that I needed glasses. When I first got them, I could not believe how my eyesight had actually deteriorated. It had happened so gradually, that it was only with the shock of the magnified vision, that I became aware of what the reality really was.
This is the kind of emotive reaction that I perceive from this encounter for the disciples. They could never be the same again.
I know that this has all been said before.
Regards as always for a great week, and a great encounter, with the great God we serve.
KGB in Australia
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 7:11:44 AM
The unsigned post-er commented that this text makes a remarkable change from epiphany to Lent. A good point, I think.
From God's revelation of his Son to our realization of who we are in his Son's presence.
Astounding.
Sally in GA
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 7:35:46 AM
For what it's worth, I would discourage the use of the medical term, "bipolar," to describe the highs and lows of our lives of faith. I appreciate what you're saying, but #1 - bipolar disorder is an illness often devastating to those who have it and to those who love the people with it and to use the term in this way trivializes the illness ~or~ #2 - it suggests that the normally-occuring highs and lows of faith are a disease.
Plenty of people with bipolar make it just fine in life (including famous people like Ted Turner and some automobile bigwig), but I consider a woman in my church whose mother was schizophrenic (not the same illness, I know, and there's a different kind of break with reality) and I would hate to think that I'd trivialize her mother's illness! We sometimes use the word "cancer" to describe something destructive that grows, but I think that this, too, might have an unwanted effect on our listeners.
---next---
I recall the Walk to Emmaus. Everything during the walk is designed to lift peoples' spirits - occasionally to the point of giddiness. While mine occurred at just the right time in my life to be therapeutic, I've seen many become almost addicted to the experience. And, since my original Walk, I've gotten the impression that the walk has its own "party line." I've since become somewhat disenchanted - it's gotten too married with Promise Keepers and the conservative party line around these parts.
Anyways, back to my point: that mountain top experience, we have to recognize, is at least partially contrived. It's in its design for everyone to have a good time and let go and let God take over for 72 hours. It makes me wonder how many of our ~felt~ or ~perceived~ mountain top experiences are not also humanly contrived. Though God does work through them (that's not the point I'm trying to make), I'm also convinced that Jesus, Peter, John and James did NOT go to a "walk to the mountaintop" seeking a so-called mountaintop experience. They went to the mountain to pray, and there was no other human being there to give them a 72-hour "walk." This was straight from God.
Maybe what we're missing is the straight line from God. Maybe what we keep seeking is the straight line from God. Maybe we need to quit seeking it and allow it to happen straight from God.
Sally
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 7:38:20 AM
Greetings All. I usually sit on the sidelines of this discussion, but wanted to make comment about the disciples. I have three children, ten years old and under. Some days they frustrate me to no end. Yesterdays lessons are already forgotten, the same questions asked over and over and over and over and over again. My youngest is just learning to read. I'll point to a word, he says I don't know. I tell him, and then point to another word and the same thing. Then I go back to the first word, and he's already forgotten it. My blood pressure goes up, my frustration level peaks and then I remember - he's just learning. The disciples were as imperfect as you and I. No doubt Jesus got frustrated when He clearly demonstrated His power, when God confirmed Him as The Son, and the disciples just didn't get it. But He still loved them, He still accepted their imperfections, He still welcomed them back when they got it wrong, again and again. I don't know about you folks, but I'm still learning each day. I'm sure there are many days that God is frustrated with me, but God always gives me another chance, just asks me to work a little harder at it. Whether we are on the mountain top or down in the muck dealing with the underbelly of the human situation, God simply asks us to do our best, to be willing to learn, be willing to help, be willing to pick ourselves up and try again. kn in ln
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 7:39:50 AM
sorry - got sidetracked by my own thoughts and wasn't clear ...
that next-to-last paragraph should read "Maybe a Walk to Emmaus-like mountain top experience ..." I'm referring to my WTE and not Jesus and friends'
Sally
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 7:56:16 AM
Toni, I did an exegetical paper on this passage last summer - if you want it for reference, you can check it out at http://www.tnsa.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=UpDownload&file=index&req=getit&lid=13
May God empower you.
Coho, Midway City.
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 8:24:20 AM
to Bammama-Thanks for pointing out that the disciples who could not cast out the evil spirit were not the ones who were on the mountaintop
Eric- I thought that it sounded like some of the original work done by Cranmer
And along with Saly, I would discourage the use of "Bipolar" in a sermon title for the following reasons
this (unintentionally, I'm sure)trivializes a big problem. And in a country where over sixty percent of the people think that all that someone with a mental illness has to is to try harder (that's from a recent Time magazine article)we need to be careful. This has nothing to do with being politically correct, but with respect for persons.
Also, I know from first-hand experience how devastating even a slight case ( like mine) of bipolar disorder can be. Between counseling and medication, I do fine, but it's still hard for me to understand why I have to do these things to stay somewhat even.
One of the things I do sometimes is look back at my old sermons and sermon titles- sometimes I think it's ok, sometimes I just cringe (if you wish to be humble or even humiliated,read some of your work from a few years ago)
Fortunately, we are not saved by our preaching, but by the grace of God
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 8:38:06 AM
Just a thought
Peter, James, And John are dying to tell the other guys what they have experienced. But before they can get a word out of their mouths, they are confronted by human need and the failure of their brothers (who, according to the Scriptures, had seen Jesus do some Pretty impressive miracles)Do the three look at each other (wink, wink, If they had seen what we have just seen) or do they look at themselves and ask-could we have cast it out? Even now, knowing what we know, could we have cast out this demon?
But notice the last line- It is not "They were impressed with Jesus" but "And all were astounded at the greatness of God"
also, this may be more eisegesis than exegesis, but is there nay chance that vs. 42 is a miniature prolepsis of Jesus death and resurrection. I think I see something there, but I'm not sure
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 8:54:43 AM
To Coho and JG in WI: Thank you for your excellent comments about prayer. Giving me some great ideas!
To the person who suggested "Bipolar Christianity" as a sermon title: I would suggest you not use this, unless you are planning to talk about the mental illness. Bipolar disorder is one that may remain hidden (i.e. you may not be able to tell just by looking at the person) in members of your congregation, and using the term lightly may be deeply hurtful to those who are dealing with it on a very personal level.
That brings me to my own comments for this week. I am hit strongly and a little concerned by the part of this passage which deals with the son who "suffers from convulsions and foams at the mouth." You see, I have epilepsy. The kind of seizures that I have do not cause me to convulse visibly -- that are not the "Grand mal" or "tonic-clonic" seizures that one typically thinks of with epilepsy, and it would be difficult for a person to tell that I was having a seizure by looking at me. However, the fact that I do have an epileptic disorder means that I am particularly sensitive to the the treatment of epileptics and am both fascinated and troubled by the treatments of epileptics throughout history -- particularly by the religious community. (The response to epileptics by the church has not often been positive.)
While there is nothing in the TEXT that says that this son who was convulsing and foaming at the mouth was having epileptic seizures, some scholars suggest that he was likely epileptic and other religious people will assume that he was. For long periods in history, it was believed that seizures were caused by demon possessions, and those whose seizure disorders were not "cured" were sometimes condemned and ostracized as "demon possessed." This led to numerous and gross mistreatments of epileptics at different periods of history.
While I am not sure that this is the direction I will go in my sermon (only a few people in my congregation know that I have epilepsy), I wanted to bring this up and entreat all of you to deal with the issue pastorally. Those who may, indeed, suffer from convulsive disorders still face numerous obstacles in this life and a lot of misunderstanding from the general public. When the assumption or connection is made that the son in this story suffered from epileptic seizures -- either by the preacher or by members of the congregation -- we need to be careful about how we deal with the issue of "demon possession." I certainly do not experience my disorder as demon possession and do not think of other epileptics as being possessed by demons. But there are those who may hold this view.
Just be careful and pastoral when dealing with this aspect of the text.
Thank you and blessings.
California Preachin'
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 9:02:03 AM
Here's an experiment
Tell your adminstrative board that you need three days- not to be counted as vacation or study leave- to spend on a mountaintop with God (and tell them you're going to leave your fly-fishing equipment at home)
WOnder what their response would be?
revgilmer in texarkana
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 9:52:51 AM
Eric,
Much of our liturgy in the UM (and predecessor Methodist Church) was drawn from the Book of Common Prayer that John Wesley loved. In using the liturgies of our Book of Worship I am often reminded that much of the riches and spiritual depth of UM worship is a gift that comes to us through the Anglican tradition from which we came.
Robbie in KS
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 11:21:25 AM
Bammamma, you wrote: "Sometimes I think we get so caught up in our responsibilities that we aren’t aware this is God’s work, and not ours." That struck me because I had just--not 1/2 an hour ago!--read the following by Oswald Chambers: "Beware of anything that competes with loyalty to Jesus Christ. The greatest competitor of devotion to Jesus is service for him. It is easier to serve than to be drunk to the dregs [not "drunk" as in intoxicated, but "drunk" as in one's self completely drunk by--taken into--God, as I understand this]. The one aim of the call of God is the satisfaction of God, not a call to do something for him. We are not sent to battle for God, but to be used by God in His battlings. Are we being more devoted to service than to Jesus Christ?"
I am struggling w/ this reading from Chambers, but it seems to fit in w/ what you said. It seems also to fit in w/ God's reproach of Peter for wanting to serve and do something *for* Jesus (and Moses and Elijah; let's not forget the *divided* loyalty, which was *also* a big part of the problem, I'd say) instead of simply being devoted to Jesus Himself.
YET...how does Chambers' quote fit w/ the reality of going back *down* the mountain into the nitty-gritty of serving?? Hmmmmm....
Heidi in MN
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 11:22:31 AM
revgilmer:
I'm pretty familiar w/ Amy Grant's songs but I don't remember that one. Seems so very fitting! Can you tell me which album it's off of?
Heidi in MN
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 11:52:59 AM
The images of the radiant faces of those who have experienced God's presence in a special way (Moses, Jesus) and then the need to come back down "off the mountaintop"--be it Sinai, or the one Jesus and Co. were on--prompts for me this, perhaps a bit off-the-wall notion of pregnancy and what comes after. You always hear about people suspecting a woman is pregnant because "she's glowing!" Something in the body actually makes the skin more luminescent during pregnancy. (This is 2nd hand knowledge for me, as I have never been "with child.") So there is this "glowing" experience--and all the wonder of pregnancy even if it *doesn't* show up visibly on the face--but then, when all is said and done, and the baby is born, reality hits in a totally different way. Some still experience having a newborn as a mountaintop experience, but for others it is very hard, like coming down into a valley. Either way, one is confronted w/ the day-to-day reality of sleepless nights, diaper-changing, getting the infant to nurse, having much less time for oneself, and all the up-and-down emotions that often go w/ that. I wonder if the pregnancy/new infant analogy can work at all for the experience of being "pregnant" with faith...........
Heidi in MN
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 12:10:05 PM
How do we *know* the disciples who couldn't manage to cure the boy were not Peter, James, and John--i.e., the ones up on the mountain? The episode w/ the demon-possessed boy happens the next day and I don't see any clear indication of *which* disciples the father is referring to. Having said that, I like the concept of some of us focusing too much on prayer without working and some focusing too much on working apart from prayer (that would be me, I must confess). And I believe it was Martin Luther who said something to the effect of, "Get down on your knees and pray as if it all depends on God. Then stand up and work as if it all depends on you!" Seems to fit here....
Heidi in MN (OK, I think I'm done posting now!)
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 12:59:28 PM
Last year for Transfiguration, I borrowed from a wonderful sermon I found here. Although the message is based on the Mark passage, the illustration is outstanding.
http://www.sermoncentral.com/sermon.asp?SermonID=55486&ContributorID=133
The illustration of Sir Edmond Hillary who was the first to climb Mount Everest. You might be interested in reading what he did after coming down from the mountain. (The illustration is at nearly the end of the message, his closing illustration, but the entire message is great.) I won't post it here, but let you go to the site.
I did send him an e-mail thanking him for his message - if you use any of it, you might wish to do the same.
JG in WI
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 4:38:21 PM
We all wish that our faith life was like one big Rocky Mountain High. We all know that life is not like this. It seems that much of it can be spent in the valleys. The question is how are we changed or transfigured by out experience with the divine. How do we keep our faith when we are feeling that God is distant when we are experiencing a painful time in our life. Fred Rodgers of Mr. Rodgers neighborhood was asked in an interview how he had always kept his faith. Fred had witnessed trageties in his youth. He saw a car accident where people were killed. His next door neighbors house burned down killing two of his neighbors. Fred answered that his mother had a great deal to do with his faith. When he witnessed a tragety his mother said look at the helpers. The people who arrive on the scene right after something tragic has happened. The firefighter who risk their lives to save those trapped inside. The police and emergency medical personal. As well as all the neighbors and friends who come to help in picking up the pieces of ones life. These are the little Christs who help us keep the faith. I believe that a good part of our lives is spent down in the valley. As much as I wish that I could be high up on that mountain top with God where nothing could ever hurt me or those I love. When I am down in the valley I am surrounded by those who love and care for me. Jesus went up on the mountain to pray and be re-energized to face what was coming when he came down off the mountain. God gives us Christs spirit so that we too can not only experience the highs of this life but be able to trust in him when we face death. Janet in Illinios
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 5:44:25 PM
A question that lingers for me is how did Peter, James and John know it was Moses and Elijah that appeared? (Did they wear nametags?)
The mystical breaks through our human limits.
Reflecting further on this text, I realize that a mountain top experience does not bestow power upon us. The transfiguration is a vision of the eternal and a peek into the heavenly realm.
When we come back from the majesty of the transfiguration, we are still confronted by the realities of illness, disease and the cries of those in need.
Sally above speaks of the Walk to Emmaus. That for many is a mountain top experience, but on the fourth day we re-enter the world, renewed by the living, loving spirit of God. I urge you to take from it what God has offered to you and treasure it while you use it in your ministry. Is this not the lesson from the pericope?
A W-G rocky Coast Me.
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 9:30:10 PM
My friends and colligues, I am once again writing personally. My daughter is in the hospital with fever, rash, breathing problems and other difficulties. Chemo was done Friday and we have been here again since last night. Her counts are not bad so neutropinia is not the problem. We don't know wht the problem is. At this point in her disease, each problem without explination is frightening to her..and to me. my husband seems able to minimize the problem as Maybe I should. It is hard as I care for her most. My sons birthday came and went and I did not see him. I am feeling sorry for myself and frightened and... I am ever assured of Gods mercy in spite of me. Just asking that you pray for understanding and strength and healing. THanks my compationate friends Tammy in Texas
Date: 2/17/2004
Time: 10:26:26 PM
Tammy,
if you are still on line, know you are in my prayers. Bless you, sister. What a journey you are on, and I do hope you know you are not on it alone, but we are with you too, at least in compassion and love. May you experience his sustaining Grace and peace that passes all understanding. Read Isaiah 43. One of my favorite passages when I am fearful and when life is hard.
Blessings,
Susan in Wa.
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 5:07:05 AM
Tammy - my heart and prayers are with you, your daughter, and the rest of your family. May God give you profound comfort and a peace that passes understanding at this time when fear is more understandable than peace. God bless you all.
A W-G Rocky - it's the 4th day I was talking about! There's a party line (at least around these parts) and a pressure to be involved in a certain way. I was in a reunion group at my former appointment (I haven't found enough Emmaus folks around here to form another one) and I was able to be invested in it - and found it rewarding for the most part. I was referring to the walks where I sponsored others or worked (I gave a talk). I won't get into the details, but there is a decided bias towards the male-dominated right. So, I use the experience for my own growth and keep from working the walks. I still encourage others to go on them; just because I've decided not to make it my full-time ministry doesn't mean it isn't a good thing ... oh, I've gone on too long and I'm sorry for that. It's just that I hate being misconstrued and given advice according to the misconstruction. It wasn't an anti-WTE post.
Sally
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 5:07:18 AM
We have had a large multi-pointed star gracing the chancel area of our sanctuary throughout the Advent- Christmas-Epiphany seasons. As part of Sunday's service we plan to take down the star and place our "old rugged" Lenten cross in a dominant position. Any ideas how to make this a significant worship moment? This forum is a real treasure. Glenn in the Thumb of Michigan, moravian@airadv.net
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 5:40:17 AM
Dear Tammy, We all are moved by your situation and are praying for you. To all my fellow readers, I have been prompted by several teachers to note that the words used by Luke to refer to Jesus soon departure are pointed reminders that He is leading His children by faith on an Exodus from sin and bondage. He will accomplish this as His true glory shows in the crucifixion. TA in MS
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 7:42:14 AM
Tammy
I have a fifteen year old daughter who is the light of my life, so my heart goes out to you and my prayers are with you. THey are also with your husband who may be hurting much more than he is either willing or able to say. In our society, men are still supposed to be tough and "strong." I kow, because I tend to do this myself.
May you know that the presence of God is with you
revgilmer in texarkana
p.s. Whatis your daughter's first name? If it's alright with you, I'd like to ask my congregation to pray for her
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 8:05:22 AM
I am thinking about taking a larger scope of the texts this week: Exodus, Psalm 99 and Luke are all about mountaintop experiences but in very different ways. Moses is all about the law (black and white thinking), the Psalmist is super spiritual having visions of God, and Luke is about the physical Jesus, God with us.
It seems to me that Christianity is not "bi-polar" at all but tri-polar or Trinitarian. We all have a favorite aspect of God, a favorite way of coming to God and we all go through stages of spiritual growth in which we delve into each aspect of God but the reality of God is that each aspect of God is a part of the One God.
Anyone else have ideas on this? Sarah
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 8:18:29 AM
Tammy's daughter's name is Kelly.
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 9:03:44 AM
I have so many thoughts on this passage. I always appreciate the mountain/valley sermons but it's simply not what this text is all about. So if not mountains and valleys, then what? What?? What???
The other day a devout Catholic friend of mine said she was reading this passage of scripture to her sons before they went off to school. "My goodness," she said to me, "How wonderful it was for Moses and Elijah to get to meet Jesus." I'd never thought about that before. You and I get to meet Jesus--the Light of God. Do we count ourselves lucky? Turning to the 2 Corinthians text Paul's commentary on this event includes the awesome accessibility we have to God through Jesus...looking at Jesus face to face is the same as looking at God's face. Nothing is hidden. Everything about God is out in the open, just like God was out in the open with Jesus on the mountain. 2 Corinthians concludes, "Our faces shine with the brightness of his face. Our lives gradully becme brighter and more beautiful as God enters our lives and we become like him." That's because God's love is powerful! God's glory is powerful.
Do you, like me, find yourselves sort of avoiding the whole glory thing? Such an archaic word, and yet it's in so many hymns..."All Glory, Laud, and Honor," "To Thine Be The Glory," "Angels From the Realms of Glory." What is glory anyway? One definition is "dignity." That helps. In Christ we see God's dignity...and that dignity is powerful. Probably glows in our lives when we let it get close to us, right? I think this is beautiful...but if I talk about God's dignity, well, for some reason I can hear snickers from the teenagers in the pews on my left. So maybe goodness will get farther down the road. Who knows?
Ann Lamott tells the story about the death of her father in her book, Traveling Mercies. She mentions how she ended up at the Rothko Chapel to deal with her pain. She writes, "The light in the Rothko Chapel was very beautiful; it bathed me. The face of the man who was meditating was soft and rosy, like he was giving off the chapel's light and it was wafting over to where I sat. The thing about light is that it really isn't yours; it's what you gather and shine back. And it gets more power from reflectiveness; if you sit still and take it in, it fills you cup, and then you can give it off yourself. So I sat still."
To be in God's company, to sit with God, is to be exposed to God's bigger than life goodness and dignity. It's such a stark contrast to the world's ugliness. I remember my first trip to a monestary to pray. A whole weekend with lots of silence. My face did not shine, at least not enough for anyone to mention. What I did experience was that I had this overwhelming desire to brush my teeth. My mouth was so dirty because God is just soooo very good. That's glory. That's what 48 hours in God's presence will do. When Jesus sat with God on that mountain, his face gathered in God's goodness, too. As we approach Lent, the season that begs us to sit with God's goodness or dignity and confess that we often can't find ours...will we gather in God's goodness and let it shine in our lives, or will we say "no, not yet...I'm just not ready....again?"
My sermon title? My secretary sure wishes I had one. revdlk in nebraska
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 10:09:42 AM
Rev dlk in Nebraska,
I had an interesting experience while on my Walk to Emmaus a couple of years ago. One of the Spiritual Directors, while giving a talk had a very soft but distinct light just over his head. It remained there for awhile after he spoke as well. Being somewhat superstitious about that kind of stuff, I tried to see any other rational explanation for that glow, whether it was light from the sanctuary or the windows, but I could see nothing. Then, it dawned on me, that this man, who had been the Pastor at the church I was then serving for 25 years prior to my coming there, was one of the most humble and godly men I had ever known. So, why wouldn't God's glory be shining on him as he spoke. He proclaimed the Gospel in truth and in great humility. The glory wasn't anything he saw, or was even aware of, but those who listened saw it. Moses didn't know he had the light shining on his face either. But the people noticed it. I think it is interesting that Moses put a veil over his face in the presence of the people, (humility) but removed it when he was in the presence of God. Oh that we would remove our veils (masks) when in the presence of God, and allow him to speak to us in such a way that others know we have been in his presence, and they are drawn there too.
Susan in Wa.
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 10:11:21 AM
Rev dlk in Nebraska,
I had an interesting experience while on my Walk to Emmaus a couple of years ago. One of the Spiritual Directors, while giving a talk had a very soft but distinct light just over his head. It remained there for awhile after he spoke as well. Being somewhat superstitious about that kind of stuff, I tried to see any other rational explanation for that glow, whether it was light from the sanctuary or the windows, but I could see nothing. Then, it dawned on me, that this man, who had been the Pastor at the church I was then serving for 25 years prior to my coming there, was one of the most humble and godly men I had ever known. So, why wouldn't God's glory be shining on him as he spoke? He proclaimed the Gospel in truth and in great humility. The glory wasn't anything he saw, or was even aware of, but those who listened saw it. Moses didn't know he had the light shining on his face either. But the people noticed it. I think it is interesting that Moses put a veil over his face in the presence of the people, (humility) but removed it when he was in the presence of God. Oh that we would remove our veils (masks) when in the presence of God, and allow him to speak to us in such a way that others know we have been in his presence, and they are drawn there too.
Susan in Wa.
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 10:21:54 AM
revdlk in nebraska Thanks for your reflections concerning your sermon preparation. I know what it is like to want to speak to all the ages in one’s congregation and be relevant. But your speaking about the teenager’s and their reaction made me think about my Christian journey.
When I was a teenager (and maybe a little before that), there was a blind man in one of the churches I attended, who during the service would "get happy", "shout", "become filled with the Holy Spirit," because of a song, or the sermon, or whatever else might have take place.” During the rest of the service he would express himself by saying "Glory!". We teenagers would snicker, giggle, and/or time the intervals between his expressions of "Glory's!" Other adults would give us the eye, or look harsh at us, for our giggling, etc. So as I grew older and matured, I learned to apply the Mary rule, "pondered his expressiveness in my heart." I have speculated that deep in his soul, and in his mind’s all seeing eyes, he has seen the “Glory of Christ face to face.” I don’t know his name, and I’m quite sure he has passed on to Glory, but I have never forgotten his expression, and though I don’t say it out loud before, during and after service, (shucks all day every day), I get happy and shout“ “Thank You Jesus” This past week, I had a mountain top experience. I still remember, and have shared it with a few family members, and friends. But I don’t want to be tempted to stay on the mountain. Probably because I don’t want “the teenager’s snickering at me.” But I Thank God for all of the “saints” I use to snicker and giggle about. I thank them for the Spiritual guidance, and my total journey growing up. And If I have a witness of any kind, I hope some teenager will hear my expression of faith journey, and later be able to say, “Glory”
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 11:51:41 AM
In doing some more grunt work on these pericopes, I'm drawn more to the "veiling" and its metaphor of ignorance, of the shining countenance of theophany. (BTW, thank you for the Anne Lamott quote). It's likely that Moses put the veil on to prevent being profaned in between the times he spent with God.
Back in those days, folks believed that gods (though the Israelites worshiped Yahweh, they nonetheless recognized others had gods, too) had luminescent skin. So, it's not surprising that Moses' face shone, too. (from notes in the New Interpreter's Study Bible)
I'm thinking of Paul's using "veil" as a metaphor for ignorance ~plus~ Jesus' words, "You faithless and perverse generation..." (again from notes in the New Interpreter's) The disciples still failed to grasp who/what Jesus is - even after the theophany.
I disagree that Moses veiled because of humility. At least not consciously. Rather, it was a way of removing the veil - coming into the presence, the glowing presence, of God and understanding. A way to set apart time with God, to mark the occasion - and the Word from On High.
Unfortunately, as Jesus indicates, the veil remained. And still later, as Paul indicates, persisted.
Where in our lives do we persist in our ignorance of faith? (I recall Job's wife: "why do you persist in your faith?") The paradox is that where we most persist in ignorance, is where we're least likely to recognize it!
Sally
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 11:53:18 AM
oops! sorry - it's not surprising that Moses, as God's emissary, had a shiny face, too. Didn't mean to imply that Moses' theophany rendered him a god or something.
-S
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 1:09:40 PM
Just a couple of things I noticed. First that the disciples were 'weighed down with sleep', but 'since they stayed awake' they saw Jesus transfigured -- It took some effort on their part to experience this.
Also, someone pointed out to me that Peter not unlike the church was uncomfortable with this mystical experience and tried to distract by proposing a building project.
I my experience main line churches are a lot more comfortable with the work and the valleys of faith than they are with the mountain top. But, without the mountain top, without the experiences that give our faith an injection of adrenaline, and have us experiencing the glory of God it is tough and even meaningless to do the work of faith.
KBinAB
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 1:25:38 PM
Does anyone have any Calls to Worship and Invocation Prayers/Confessions of Sin that will work well for Transfiguration Sunday? I am having difficulty finding ones I like. If you know any good ones, could you please post them, either in the "Call to Worship and Prayers" area or here? Thanks so much!
Peace and blessings, California Preachin'
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 1:46:58 PM
Sermon title: "In the Tanning Booth with God"... or "Half Baked for God"... or "Turn me over, I'm done!"
Just a few humorless titles...
"Red faced for God!"
pulpitt in ND (I've been away for a while...thanks for you faithful... blessed are the cheesemakers!) ;?)
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 2:03:13 PM
Two observations/contributions: after "Google-ing," I discovered that there are folks out there who think the Transfiguration is Biblical proof that there are UFOs that visit us. I had hoped that this nonsense had gone away with the 1960's!
The other is something I ran across in Esther de Waal's latest book, "Lost in Wonder: Rediscovering the Spiritual Art of Attentiveness" (Liturgical Press, 2003). She quotes from a new translation of the Rule of St. Benedict: "However late, then, it may seem, let us rouse ourselves from lethargy. That is what the scripture urges on us when it says: the time has come for us to rouse ourselves from sleep. Let us open our eyes to the light that shows us the way to God. Let our ears be alert to the stirring call of his voice crying out to us every day: today if you should hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
de Waal goes on to comment, "So this calls the Transfiguration to mind with the scene of drowsy disciples being startled by the shining forth of the brilliant light of Christ, and their ears astonished by a sound like thunder. This is the divine light, the light which not only shows us the way to God but makes us more like God, shaping us into his likeness."
When we are "overshadowed by a cloud," drowsy disciples that we are from time to time, terrified that we can't fall back to the law and the prophets with all certainty that should be reserved for God, we need to look for the divine light of Christ and listen for the thundering voice that proclaims we are to listen to Jesus!
OLAS
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 3:08:56 PM
This illustration appeared in the Rumors newsletter to which I subscribe (more info at the bottom). It's rather good.
FROM THE BOOKSHELF – The spirit dancing A story about Christ’s transfiguration first published in Aha!!! by Ralph Milton
"What happened, Peter?" Mark asked. "I can't tell you. Not now," Peter answered. "Are you OK? You and James and John. You look awful!" "No, we're not sick, Mark." Peter was shaking a little. "Just leave us alone, OK?" It was years later when Mark finally heard the story of what had happened that day. It seemed like a lifetime ago. Jesus, the one they thought was the Messiah, had been executed like a common criminal. Strung up on a cross. But then he'd come back and been among them. And later, Holy Spirit came to all of them at Pentecost. "What DID happen to you, that day on the mountain," Mark asked Peter. "You didn't want to talk about it then." "I didn't know what it was about then." Peter was smiling. "Well now that you know, tell me." "I still don't know anything," Peter said. "But I understand. There's a difference." "I don't get the difference. But never mind. Just tell me what happened." "Well, Jesus asked me and James and his brother John to go up with him to the top of the mountain. We thought he was just going to pray. But all of sudden, Jesus changed. His face shone. It was like looking into the sun. And his clothes turned white. Really white." "That's just like what happened to Moses!" "Yeah," said Peter. “And then there were two people with Jesus." "Who?" Mark asked. "Elijah and Moses." "How did you know?" "I don't know how we knew," said Peter. "But we knew. And Jesus was talking to them." "What did they say?" "I couldn't hear. And Jesus wouldn't tell us afterward." "So what did you do?" said Mark. "I didn't know what to do. I said to Jesus, 'Shouldn't we build three little houses here? I could build one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.'" "Why would you want to do that?" Peter laughed. "Because I can't think under pressure, that's why. So I say something dumb." "What did Jesus say?" Mark asked. "He didn't say anything. A bright cloud came and covered him. Then we heard a voice. James and John heard it too. You can ask them." "Was it God?" "It must have been. The voice said, 'This is my Son. I love him. Listen to him.'" "That's all?" asked Mark. "That's all!" "What did you do?" "We were so scared. We fell flat on our faces. But then we heard Jesus saying very gently, 'Don't be afraid. Get up.' Mark was shaking his head. "I don't get it. Every time I think I understand, I hear something new. But it's funny, Peter. I hear you tell that story and I feel strong and good and happy inside." "Yeah!" Peter was laughing. "I know what you mean. It kinda gets the old spirit dancing, doesn't it?"
For information about Aha!!! and lots of other resources, check out our website at: www.joinhands.com
If you are writing to a friend about Rumors, just copy this note to them: RUMORS is free. It comes to your e-mail box every Sunday morning. Here's all you do. Send an e-mail to: rumors-subscribe@joinhands.com. Don't put anything else in that e-mail. There are instructions at the end of each issue telling you how to get off the list if you no longer want to receive it.
Posted by California Preachin'
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 3:42:33 PM
Has anyone tried looking at the Exodus passage, the 2Cor., and the Luke passage to see the connections about a change in appearance after encountering God? I thought it interesting to find this thread - Even Jesus' appearance changed when he began praying to God at the Transfiguration. Just wanted some other comments on the possiblity of this theme: "IS YOUR FACE SHINNING?" Vic in Al.
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 4:08:16 PM
A W-G asks how the disciples recognised Moses and Elija. I always figured they had their trading cards. "Trade you a Moses for an Aaron and any two minor prophets."
Olas, Want a wierd Science-fiction-like notion to munch on? What if what the disciples were experiencing was the actuall moment of contact these two past prophets were having with God. Jesus telling Elija "Go back down. I have 700 you don't know about, and I'll fix you up with Elisha." To Moses, Jesus is saying, "What do you mean they broke? Go get some more tablets and do it over." Or perhaps,"No, you can't go in but I'll show it to you." No, those things happened in Peter, James and John's past, you say? If Jesus is God incarnate then the holy I AM is present in time and space and those with him are touching infinity and eternity. Maybe they are standing in viewing distance to the place where all time meets in NOW. Maybe Elija and Moses, from that same place, are seeing the disciples and knows the future is safe. Maybe this is Moses' view into the Promised Land from that final mountain top he climbed. Too wierd to wrap your mind around? Truth is stranger than even sci-fi. It probably won't preach, but to think so far outside the box may remind you how awesome God really is. It might make you a little shiny, yourself, to push the imagination when thinking on God. Magi in the Middle
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 4:13:09 PM
Vic in Al,
Yes, I have seen the same connection and I am calling my sermon "In His Presence" talking about prayer. Susan in Wa.
Date: 2/18/2004
Time: 6:26:28 PM
I am pondering the analogy of a Native American vision quest in relation to this text. They go up on the mountain to pray. It is an intentional trip. It is a high mountain, not an easy jaunt. Just as a Native American vision quest would likely involve an animal spirit guide, so the visions of Moses and Elijah, the use of the greek word “exodon” (departure – exodus), the cloud, all fit into what might be the cultural expectations of religious visions for the disciples.
Lent then becomes our vision quest time. Huston Smith in his book, Why Religion Matters, has a section on the difficult of the spiritual path.
A part of the message must then be, if you want a mountain top experience you have to put in the spiritual energy of the quest.
Anyone with a better understanding of N.A. vision quests that can tell me if this is an apt analogy?
Steve Hermes, Lander WY
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 7:27:42 AM
I see an illustration of this passage on this webpag when, two days ago, Tammy broke into the discussion and raised her daughter up for our concern. Up until that point, we were going about our regular routine, living our lives and existing in comfortable community together. The news of her daughter breaks in and, in my mind, our purpose as the family of God is clear- pray, support, love. We are transfigured from a casual community of pastors worrying about Sundays sermon into the community of faith rallied together for one in need. And then we slipped back into our posting, our worrying about Sunday's sermon and became our casual community once again.
(An aside, has anyone had the thought that this is a 'Superman' story? Jesus pops into a cloudy fogbank and comes out 'Transfigured Man!' The mild mannered preacher sheds his nerdy glasses, rips off his robe and is revealed in his true identity, with his two trusty companions at his side)
My reflections for this Sunday are a bit off of the discussion here- I have been thinking about how dull we have made our religion. Where is the wonder in our hearing of this story? We toss words like love, peace, resurrection, and God about with such casual ease. And yet, stories like this one should serve to remind us of God's wonder-filled eternal presence with us, Jesus' wonder-filled place in our lives, our wonder-filled place in God's kingdom.
Where is our awe? Where is the heart leaping to our mouths as we see Christ revealed? Where is our jaw-dropping fear as God speaks? Why are we not fainting before this amazing display? Where is the laughter as we hold the awesomeness of God beside the ordinary of our lives?
For Sunday, I am going to press myself and the congregation to stop seeking answers for a moment (and finding fault- listen to the carping- the disciples couldn't heal, the disciples didn't get it right, the disciples wanted to sleep... blah- why focus on these weak features of the story when Jesus transfigures before us?) and simply reside in the awesome questions that this story raises. How wonderful is God? How great is Jesus? What waits for us up on the mountain? Down in the valley?
Sure, we've all said that we have to go back down the mountain as if we are forced to trudge back into our ordinary demanding lives... but have you ever thought that God, Jesus and this radiant display go with us too? And possibly, it was also there with us all the time... if we had the eyes to see and the ears to hear? We don't just walk up a mountain with our savior... he's been along for the journey the entire time. God didn't just break through in one moment of glory... God's there in each moment of our day.
My hymn for Sunday- Open My Eyes That I May See The first line of our congregational prayer- Creator, Save us from being dull Christians with all the answers...
TB in MN
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 8:29:23 AM
To Vic in AL, I'm using those three readings and my sermon is titled "The Great Unveiling", challenging folks to take/make/DEMAND time for the (sometimes tough) mountaintop experience, and then suggesting some ways to keep the shining face when we're in the valley. Jesus retreated for prayer when the valley became overwhelming, and that for me is a model which works well in today's hectic/frantic pace of life. How else can we be "little Christs" for others we meet in our journey if we don't allow our faces to shine, if we don't remove the veils that keep people from seeing the Spirit of God awakened within us up on the mountaintop? KASinNJ
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 10:12:38 AM
KASinNJ
You ask how we can keep the glow. Question: Is the glow the product of the person who has it? IMO, we don't produce the glow nor do we maintain it. It either exists or it doesn't. I do believe that it takes eyes that it requires "eyes that can see" inoder to see it. It's a "God-thing." A question that needs to be addressed is "can we see our own glow?" And if the answer is Yes, then how do we avoid narcicism.
West Texas Presbyterian
West Texas Presbyerian
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 10:14:09 AM
Steve Hermes - I like the thought, "if you want a mountain top experience then you've got to put forth the spiritual energy of the quest."
I also like the post immediately following: TB in MN - "save us from being dull Christians with all the answers."
It seems that "having all the answers" is the sloth that expects mountain top experiences without climbing the mountain. Get the answer, and then there's no reason to go any further!
Good insights, y'all!
Sally
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 10:20:06 AM
Dear California Preachin',
One trigger for a person with epilepsy is a condition called "photosensitivity": bright light, strobe lights, light changes cause a seizure. The seizure at the base of the Mount of Transfiguration was caused by Jesus and the brilliance of his clothes and face. Jesus held both the cause and the healing of his epilepsy.
I've been there, done that. Now I am healed of epilepsy. Still can't stand strobe lights!
The Tonic Clonic Kid
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 10:35:35 AM
KASinNJ
You ask how we can keep the glow. Question: Is the glow the product of the person who has it? IMO, we don't produce the glow nor do we maintain it. It either exists or it doesn't. I do believe that it takes eyes that it requires "eyes that can see" inoder to see it. It's a "God-thing." A question that needs to be addressed is "can we see our own glow?" And if the answer is Yes, then how do we avoid narcicism.
West Texas Presbyterian
West Texas Presbyerian
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 11:05:13 AM
I think I'm being called to look at Peter's desire to build those tabernacles (or booths). It seems as though he wants to hold onto the moment. The theme of my sermon will be focused on "letting go". Although this must have been difficult for Peter, imagine what would have happened if he had his way - Jesus would never have been crucified and glorified on the cross. Its funny how when the temptation of holding onto the moment seize Peter's mind, God breaks in.
A Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 11:08:51 AM
Fred Craddock says:
"Who has not heard interpretations of the transfiguration joined to the following story of a healing that offered a 'mountaintop experience' followed by the admonition to 'come down to the valley of service'?
"For Jesus, the transfiguration confirmed who he was and assured that the announced path before him was not only according to the law and the prophets but was the will of God for him. For the apostles, the experience told them that Jesus was God's Son and to be obeyed as he instructed them on the way to Jerusalem and death.
"One thing is clear: Jesus and his three disciples have an experience of God. Its meaning for Jesus and for them is different, but the only actor in the event is God. Jesus is not acting but is being acted on. The God of Moses and Elijah affirms them in their unity with Jesus but asserts the finality of Jesus. The God who could rescue the Son from suffering confirms for Jesus the way of the cross. This God also telss the disciples, who will soon face conditions that seem to derail if not bring to an end ther hope in Jesus, that those very painful conditions do not lie across the way but on the way to the completion of God's purpose. This is a mountaintop experience but not the kind about which persons write glowingly of sunrises, soft breezes, warm friends, music, and quiet time. On this mountain the subject is death, and the frightening presence of God reduces those present to silence. In due time, after the resurrection, they will remember, understand, and not feel heavy. In fact, they will tell it broadly as good news."
Shalom
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 11:40:16 AM
Within the last two months, I’ve lost both of my grandparents. We buried my grandmother on Valentine’s Day. Perhaps for this reason, I do not see the valley simply as our work or service. Rather, I see it as the psalmist’s valley of the shadow of death. Jesus appears with Elijah and Moses – Moses, who died on the mountaintop in God’s presence, Elijah who was taken by God. Jesus is greater than they are, yet he will not be spared as they were – he will suffer and die, crying “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” The disciples do not believe Jesus when he tells them he must suffer, but God confirms this with the words “Listen to him!” The only way forward is through that valley of death, not only for Jesus but also for us. Jesus will lead us on the exodus, taking us through the wilderness of death to the promised land of God’s glory.
I’m leaning toward a teaching sermon, using this text to help us prepare for the Lenten season, encouraging us to walk through that valley with Jesus as we follow him to the cross.
Leanne in AL
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 11:56:19 AM
Playing with Luther's "Theology of the Cross." We tend to think that "seeing God" happens on the mountain and "doing God", (i.e., service) happens in the valleys. However for Luther, God became even more visible in the valleys.
RevJohn in Juneau
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 12:04:32 PM
Tonic Clonic, I have one question - what the hell are you trying to say son?
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 1:16:09 PM
A Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Are you going to talk about "God in a box?" That's we're we like him because it's safer for us.
Pr. del in Ia
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 1:39:14 PM
Heidi in Mn
The Amy Grant song "Mountaintop" is found on her first album, simply called Amy Grant. She was a junior in high school at the time.
It is also found on the live Album "In Concert-Volume 1"
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 1:45:59 PM
Regarding Peter and the three booths: It seems to me Peter is ignorantly *equating* Jesus and Moses and Elijah (or Jesus and the Law and the Prophets); "Let's worship all three of them!" he is suggesting. But God says, no, now God's SON holds higher place, even above the Law/Torah of the Jews and the Prophets. Jesus is the final Word of God so superior to even the prior revelations of God that we really need only to "listen to him." And yet, how many Christians put at *least* as much stock in the Mosaic Law (if not in the Prophets) as they do in Jesus? Not that we can't learn from the Law, but everything from the OT must now be funneled through Jesus before we cling to it for dear life (10 Commandments, Levitical laws, etc.). The only place we have assurance of Life is in Jesus. Peter had to make this paradigm shift, and so do many Christians yet today.
Heidi in MN
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 3:38:28 PM
I think I'd have wanted to keep them there, too. I wouldn't have had any better comprehension of what was before my very eyes than Peter, John, and James. I think they deserve some credit (esp Peter) for knowing "Lord, it is good for us to be here."
Maybe they wanted to worship them, maybe not- it doesn't say. I always have the visual image of a Lucy-like booth (you know, psychological help 5 cents). Maybe they just wanted them to stay in their booths so they could come and put their coins in the tin cups and ask advice from the experts! (or so I said in a sermon from several years back and, of course Jesus gave grace for free - just too, too, cutesy).
The point is: they were smart enough to know that they were in the presence of greatness.
and - another thing I've always wondered: how did they know Elijah and Moses were Elijah and Moses? were they wearing nametags? No voice from the sky says, "This is Elijah, this is Moses, and this is my Son, the Beloved."
Still trying to un-veil (or would that be de-veil)
Sally
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 5:36:23 PM
Pr. del in Ia,
I'm not sure I will focus simply on putting God in a box (although that is clever). I think I am focusing more on the human condition which struggles to let go.
It seems, at least from my perspective, that Peter wanted to hold onto the moment. Perhaps he wanted to hold on because the text says that he missed the conversation that Jesus had with Elijah and Moses. As you already know, sleeping is usually used as a metaphor for ignorance. We might say that like us, Peter was ignorant of God's plan. Peter had no idea that his desire to put Jesus in a box would have cost the world salvation.
God then intervenes and claims Jesus as his own. Tells Peter to wake up by saying, "listen to him." Perhaps if we listened more to Jesus we would know when to let go of things as well.
So my main point for this Sunday will focus on letting go. There's a hundred ways to run with this one, but to keep it simple I might use the old addage to let go and let God.
A Pastor on the Jersey Shore...
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 5:46:28 PM
Tired Disciples after a mountain climb...
I've led some camps in the Black Hills of SD... I've climbed Harney Peak, the tallest Mountain East of the Rockies I believe, don't quote me, suffice it to say it's a CLIMB... Storm Mountain is another climb, that's where the SMUMC is.
It's interesting how people climb up... wondering if the effort is worth it...
I like the idea that we want "some flash at the top" ... if there were no "flash" in the wonderful scenery who would make the effort.
"Because it's there!" is why people climb. It's the "pay off" when you get to the top that you can join Martin and all the other prophets who have gone before and have seen what we now see!
In our "boring" churches, we don't expect much "flash" any more. If the youth make too much noise, they get chewed out by the "HOLY ONES"...
I'm bouncing some thoughts out here... rambling, some would say. I'm leading confirmation, 7 young people this year. In years past we've done the "Mentor" program which works great. Still, this year we're doing it differently... tried to "Pizzazz it" a little as we meet with three other UM Churches in our community. There is something about "Gathering" with others who seek the mountain tops. We want to share in the celebration, the joy of the accomplishment of the climb.
Back to camp... There are basically two kinds of "hikers" those that run ahead who seemingly never tire of the climb, and then there's the older ones, the over weight ones, the ones who need more encouragement to get up the mountain.
We're drawn to church, for some it is the pinnacle of their week. The elderly come faithfully, the young stand in the entry way waiting for their parents to pick them up after Sunday School.
We need to "climb together" we need to SHOW FORTH the LIGHT of GOD'S LOVE, BRIGHT, BRILLIANT AND PIZAZZI!
Well, I'm rambling, sorry about the sermon titles.. they go more with the "Rock of Ages Cleft for me" OT passage, wherever that is!
Well, HIKERS, stay with the climb, I've heard the VIEW is BREATHTAKING!
Thanks for listening to my typing...
With pizzaz, ;?)
pulpitt in ND
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 5:49:10 PM
Thanks TB for the "inspiration"... almost forgot to "give you credit"...
pulpitt in ND
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 6:14:42 PM
To all DPS'ers
I am a pastor without a church, effective this afternoon about 5:00 p.m. It seems that the PPR committee of the church where I used to preach, which was last Sunday, got together with the D.S. and ask for my removal. It seems like when a certain group of people who have run their church for the last few decades get up set when there toes are steeped on, whoa be to the preacher who has taken the initiative and let them know that the time has come for them to start abiding by the Book of Discipline.
There is no way for a pastor to defend him or herself without sounding like some like some ungodly person not fit to fill the pulpit. So I guess I will have to console myself with the fact that some things never change. In a small town church a pastor is nothing more than a puppet on a string. If the people don't (I mean the PPR- after all don't they speak for the entire congregation?) like what the preacher preaches, just call the DS and cut the string. NO MORE PUPPET!!!!
Sorry if I sound like I'm venting but I have no one else to turn to and maybe there is someone out there who has been where I am now and can offer some words of wisdom.
Disturbed pastor in AR
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 6:15:56 PM
To all DPS'ers
I am a pastor without a church, effective this afternoon about 5:00 p.m. It seems that the PPR committee of the church where I used to preach, which was last Sunday, got together with the D.S. and ask for my removal. It seems like when a certain group of people who have run their church for the last few decades get up set when there toes are steped on, whoa be to the preacher who has taken the initiative and let them know that the time has come for them to start abiding by the Book of Discipline.
There is no way for a pastor to defend him or herself without sounding like some like some ungodly person not fit to fill the pulpit. So I guess I will have to console myself with the fact that some things never change. In a small town church a pastor is nothing more than a puppet on a string. If the people don't (I mean the PPR- after all don't they speak for the entire congregation?) like what the preacher preaches, just call the DS and cut the string. NO MORE PUPPET!!!!
Sorry if I sound like I'm venting but I have no one else to turn to and maybe there is someone out there who has been where I am now and can offer some words of wisdom.
Disturbed pastor in AR
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 6:17:15 PM
From Disturbed Pastor in AR
Forgot to ask, Where is God in all this?
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 6:33:00 PM
Heidi in MN,
The quote from Chambers is great, and I am pondering if there is any way I can use it in my sermon. However, I am realizing that the congregation I serve may have the opposite problem. Most of the people come to church on Sunday morning. They listen to (and actually comment on) the sermon and the rest of worship. But I have a heck of a time getting them to participate in any kind of mission activities. Thus, they can sort of "get" the devotion part, but they seem to really struggle with the "service" part. They seem to feel more comfortable ON the mountaintop rather than at the foot of it. Maybe one could use Chambers' quote and then turn it around a bit, suggest that the devotion part isn't the be all and end all of Christian faith?
California Preachin'
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 6:35:34 PM
Dear Disturbed Pastor in AR: Been there, done that, in another polity -- but have had those same feelings of betrayal by the judicatory hierarchs who seem to have the "the congregation (with the money, by the way) will always be here -- the pastor we can send on to somewhere else" even when the congregation is clearly dysfunctional, in need of discipline, etc.
Where is God in all this? With you. With them. God will eventually sort it out. In the meantime, take care of yourself. Accept this as a gift of time off -- go find a place to do a few days of retreat, talk with a trusted councillor ... and move on.
When I used to make complaints to my spiritual director about these sorts of events, Fr. Jim (he was a Jesuit) would answer with a question: "And how did they treat Jesus?"
Blessings, Eric in OH
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 6:38:36 PM
Heidi in MN,
I also love your pregnancy/baby analogy! I think it works great with the text. I have several friends who are pregnant right now (like you, I have never been), and several more who have recently given birth. Although pregnancy isn't all about the glow (ah, the joy of morning sickness!), neither are mountain top experiences. Mountains are treacherous places, and raw experiences of God are both breathtaking and frightening. Overwhelming, one might say, as many couples also experience pregnancy to be. This analogy may work particularly well with a young congregation, but I think it may also work in my older congregation, as most of the members have had children and may now have young grandchildren. Thanks for getting my thoughts moving!
Blessings, California Preachin'
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 7:23:35 PM
Disturbed pastor in AR
I have a friend in my area in a similar situation. The committee came up with a series of lame excuses. They called the meeting to fire him. Forgot to call the DS, why would he need to be involved?
Several prayer partners asked my friend to hold on. (we normally change in June) After 3 weeks of Hexx. Suddenly the church was changed and calmed and they seem to be starting a new relationship.
I don't know your situation. I can't say I know what you are feeling. It sounds like your DS is different that ours. They are not caring for his or her charge which is you. They are not enforcing the integrity of your pulpit.
I am sorry for your pain. Keep watching for God, He is there but your vision is current obscured by the cloud of pain.
I am praying for your peace and God's justice.
Tbowen in Ga
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 8:09:24 PM
Dear Disturbed Pastor in AR,
Our polity may be different but the situation is unfortunately similar. Certain folks within the congregation are unhappy with the leadership of the pastor, it either is different from what they have been used to and/or threatens the power structure that each church has, some more visible than others.
I agree that God is with you, and with them, and sooner or later it will get sorted out. My prayers are with you, rejection is hard, especially when you have tried your best to be faithful to your call. I hope your next assignment is a better fit.
ks in ME
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 8:28:06 PM
To Disturbed in AR Been there done that as well. different church polity but basically the same result; although a majority of the congregation was clearly very pleased with my pastoral leadership, a few very unhealthy people - leaders in the congregation made my life a living hell for a time; when I called for help from the "powers that be", to work through the problems I was encouraged to resign, after over a year of dealing with these people fromthe congregation and some health issues of my own, I finally gave in, though it broke my heart to do that and resigned from my position. And then all the attention I received from the "powers that be" to resign, all of a sudden I was no one, even though I had major surgery a few days after my resignation was effective and in the hospital for several days, not one of the higher ups visited me while in the hospital. It's been almost two years now, and I finally have a new church (in a different district) and it's only part time, which is a financial problem for me, but at least it's a church. People from the church I left told things about me that were just not true, and no one gave me a true chance to answer the allegations; it seems that no one was there to protect me and my rights. Often times I felt like God had pulled the rug and my faith out from under me, but through it all I realize my faith is even stronger and God has been here all along with me, it's the "powers that be" in our churches and church bodies that need some help. It seems each denomination is yelling about a shortage of pastors,but with the lack of support for pastors who are serving faithfully, what do they expect? Now I'm just rambling, essentially, what I was tryingto say is I feel your pain and it is still painful to me; but I've also moved on and grown through the pain and possibly despite the pain, b/c God has been here and God is htere with you. It'shard when the major support in your life, like the church, is ripped out from under you and you feel betrayed; but who else to understand that than Jesus? Peace be with you and know you are not alone in being betrayed by congregation members and church politics and the powers that be in our churches.
Also for California Preachin, If i remember correctly there were some call to worship material at www.textweek.com listed under liturgies toward the bottom of hte page for Transfiguration.
I think I"m focusing on the turning point theme in the GOspel for SUnday, the Transfiguration is a turning point for JEsus as he beings the road to Jerusalem and the cross, it's a turning point for hte disciples who follow Jesus; and it s a turning point for us as we switch gears from the light images of Epiphany to the more penitential season of Lent. I'm going to use the song "Shine, Jesus, Shine" as well in my sermon - a great hymn for Transfiguration. IT's also a turning point in the sense that we often want to stay on the mountain (Epiphany times) like Peter James and John; where we can see Jesus shine and we know Jesus is with us, but like the disciples we go back to the valleys (Sometimes with a thud) and it's harder there to keep the faith when we can't see or feel JEsus quite so brightly/intensely. Yet even when we don't feel JEsus' presence, God is with us, walking iwth us on our way to the cross.d Peace, Jonah
Date: 2/19/2004
Time: 8:37:11 PM
to add to the discussion on whether to focus on the awe-inspiring event or the call to service the next day, I remember that when I went before the committee on examinations who had seen a sermon I had written. One of the things I talked about in there was how we are not saved by works- that we cannot svae ourselves by works. One very wise layperson informed me that he hadn't met very many Christians, if any, who were trying that hard!
revgilmer in Texarkana
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 3:19:34 AM
Some very lofty posts this week. I have to think that this week has generated nearly the most posts that I have seen for a long time on this site.
We are all heady and glowing in the wonder of God. We are all caught up in the ecstatic notion of seeing the face of God.
Then in comes "Disturbed Preacher" convulsing with the pain of his recent dismissal.
The reality of his plight, is heightened by our first having experienced the true glory of God.
That is surely the point of this story for Luke. To have such an experience is for Jesus and the disciples a wake up call to what the current state of the people truly is. How far we really are from the true state and nature of the kingdom.
To glow with the love and wonder of God, is great, but it simply frightens those around us who live in the darkness of pain.
May I just compliment my brothers and sisters in Christ for your outpouring this week. Magnificent lot of posts this week. Absolutely too much material to do justice in one sermon.
Best wishes to all for your messages this week.
Regards, KGB
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 5:41:21 AM
Disturbed Preacher: my heart and prayers are with you. In my first appointment, I had a definite struggle - and mostly about the Discipline (I interpret that as the Book of Discipline rather than spiritual discipline). They had an administration that seemed to be entirely invented on their own. I used to tease one of the churches (there were 4) that they were Baptists who were afraid of water.
How did I get through? It was tough. Real tough. I chose that time to go on the Walk to Emmaus and it happened at just the right time to offer me healing. The beginning was to confess my own sin when I was the one feeling sinned against. Talk about a release!!!!
When I moved, I was warned "this next appointment will make or break your career." I was jumpy for an entire year at my next appointment - but I invested in it to the best of my abilities and had a great ministry there! Partly, it was serendipity - everything was just as I needed it at that time.
Next, I took the time to heal as best I could. Give yourself some time to lick your wounds and know that not all appointments are alike. And once you've healed enough to look at your own part in it, learn from your mistakes and go forward all the smarter!
I must admit, however, that baggage still (6 years later) comes back to haunt me from time to time. Mistrust lingers the longest for me.
I hope there is a counselor in your Annual Conference. If there is not, do seek a REPUTABLE counselor (not all are created equal, especially among some Christian counselors, unfortunately) and, as Eric advises, a spiritual refreshment.
Last, recall that though the Bishops might have laid hands on you, it was God who ordained you. Not the DS, not the Bishop, not your congregants. God called you and God ordained you. Ultimately, you'll answer to God.
anonymous
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 6:15:09 AM
I am in awe of the wisdom and love found in this electronic media. This should be so impersonal. We are untold distances apart and have no clue who most of us are. Yet the electronic spark connected by live less computer cables and spinning disk drives, the heart beat of our living Lord leaps from person to person.
WOW or maybe I should say ZAP.
The sharing of the scripture is always motivating but that is not the best work of the forum. It is the hearing that we are not alone. The virtual pat on the back and the I know the feeling virtual hug that help all of us.
Thanks to all who share their hearts.
Tbowen in Ga
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 7:59:01 AM
The movie "The Passion of Christ" is the subject of a weekly devotional site. Here's a good quote from the website.......
Repeatedly articulating that the film is a work of his faith with faith-based motives, Gibson has been quoted to say that he made the film the way he did so that viewers "see that someone could endure that and still come back with love and forgiveness, even through extreme pain and suffering and ridicule."
If you want to visit that site here's the link: http://www.elca.org/dcm/youth/faithlens/thisweek.html
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 8:34:12 AM
"Anyways, back to my point: that mountain top experience, we have to recognize, is at least partially contrived. It's in its design for everyone to have a good time and let go and let God take over for 72 hours. It makes me wonder how many of our ~felt~ or ~perceived~ mountain top experiences are not also humanly contrived."
This was Sally's contribution from 2/17/04. I was doing a CPE unit at a Psych hospital and every morning we had a staff meeting on one of the units. One of the social workers told of this feeling that overcame her the night before as she was just sitting in her living room and she felt as if she was in the presence of God. She was unable to continue her experience because she was unable to put the experience in words. She was not a terribly religious person yet she was awestruck by this experience which I would call a mountaintop experience. It was not a "72 hour" effort to find the mountaintop it was a spontaneous thing that she herself said she would probably never experience again. I think to wonder how many of these experiences are contrived is to put doubt on hearing those experiences that are life altering.
Bill from Porcupine
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 8:58:14 AM
First of all, let me thank everyone for your insights into the text. I ocassionally read what's here, but haven't posted in a long time. What one poster suggested (sorry, forgot who) about wondering where the awe and power is in this story has really helped my thinking. My mind is pulled away from the text this week by all the things -small and large -that usually demand our attention in any given week (staff issues, cancer, death, locking my keys in the car, etc).
Yet today I have made a connection. An early poster on the forum asked, "how we are called to live out God's powerful and comforting message in foggy and confusing times?" I thought immediately of the woman in our church who fell and broke her leg Sunday and found out that she has an advanced form of cancer. Now there is a foggy and confusing place to be. Perhaps this will be a pastoral care sermon this time around. I've never really approached any of the Transfiguration texts that way before, but that may be how this one turns out. The test for me will be to stay faithful to the text instead of fitting something else to the text.
Disturbed Preacher -You are most definitely in my prayers. While I have not had an experience like the one you describe, I know that our UM system can be cold and impersonal at the worst possible times. I hope your relationship with your DS is such that you can receive some form of pastoral care from her/him. Remembering that it is God who has called you, may you be nurtured by his love during this awful time. May your despair be tamed by hope and may your disillusionment be transfigured into a crystal clear vision from God
Tarheel Rev
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 9:15:16 AM
Dear Hurting Pastor in Ar. Another similiar story from Texas. I am three years into my next appointment and have been able to heal somewhat. I brought healing to my present appointment because of my experience in my previous church. God used that pain and He will use your pain some day. Many are praying for you - Rangler
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 10:01:46 AM
JG in WI,
I have been to sermoncentral.com and,although there is an illustration on Mount Everest there, I can find no way to retrieve the sermon of which you spoke. There is no way to type in the ID number of the sermon or the contributor. Do you know who the author of that sermon was?
JR in TX
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 10:05:17 AM
Coho, thanks again! I have been gone since Monday, just got home and read your exegesis. I was really struck by the same word, exodus, being used in this scripture. More food for thought!
I love this site, I think we all become a little bit of each other thru our study. My sermon is a little Sally, Eric, Coho, Padre, so many of you, too many to mention, but I am better for having spent time during the week with you!
Tammy, I have not ever commented about your daughter, but I pray for Kelly (and for your family) many times a day. May she be transfigured by the One who hears our prayers.
Blessings my brothers and sisters! Toni
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 10:08:41 AM
Bill in Porcupine - the obvious difference is that one was a program that elicits "mountain top experiences" for many and one was spontaneous.
OK, I've been reflecting a little harder, and trying to incorporate the wise words of Craddock that someone posted awhile ago. This is shaping up to be a toughie.
Here's what I'm thinking: "fog, veil, sleep = different kinds of metaphors for unawareness." Jesus in Luke - turns around the expectations of what a Messiah is or should be. Disciples - just don't get it, understand him (fog, sleep).
We think of Mountain Top experiences as things that make us just glow all over and smile from ear to ear. Yet, as Craddock says, the crucifixion happened on a mountain - and smiles revealed the jeers. And to Jesus, God seems absent.
Yet, here it is on the first mountaintop that God establishes Jesus as his son. It's on Calvary that Jesus establishes himself as God's son "Father, into your hands ..."
Then, back in the OT - Moses brings down the law - and still people fail to understand it as grace and rather turn it into a rule book, and a well nigh impossible one at that.
I'm still stuck on the "veil" (as in the epistle) as a metaphor for ignorance. It's hard to hear Jesus come out and criticize us good religious folks ("you faithless and perverse generation ...") yet can we really say we understand? No.
And that is where the "grace" appears to enter. It's no longer about our understanding. It's no longer about our control. It's no longer about our minds. It's no longer about us. It's now about God and his self-revelation through his Son (the epiphany-to-Lent change many have spoken of).
I'm struggling, and still have no title or even a workable theme.
Sally in GA
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 10:23:53 AM
Did not read all the posts, so do not know if this has been addressed. Does anyone know who Jesus is referring to in verse 41? Is he referring to the Disciples at their failure to heal? After all, in verses 1-2 of chapter 9, Jesus gives the disciples the power to heal. So my question then: Is Jesus' remarks, directed towards the disciples for failing to use what Jesus has given them? Jesus gave them the power, and they failed to believe, they failed to use what Jesus gave them?
Lay Pastor in MN
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 10:24:55 AM
Did not read all the posts, so do not know if this has been addressed. Does anyone know who Jesus is referring to in verse 41? Is he referring to the Disciples at their failure to heal? After all, in verses 1-2 of chapter 9, Jesus gives the disciples the power to heal. So my question then: Is Jesus' remarks, directed towards the disciples for failing to use what Jesus has given them? Jesus gave them the power, and they failed to believe, they failed to use what Jesus gave them?
Lay Pastor in MN
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 10:45:23 AM
Dear Disturbed in Ar, I was hurt bad myself by some folks in MS who were unhappy that my ministry included people of different skin color. One trusted friend told me at the time that I had a choice; to become bitter, or better. That was good advice. The hardest part was the sense of wondering where God was. I thought I was suffering alone. My position was not vindicated. The pastor had all the power to hire and fire and I was out. No negative review of my work... no reaon, (but we all knew the unspoken dissatisfaction with my refusal to make distinctions based on outward appearances for who was a valid object of the ministry of our church.)Anyway, I was living in a church owned home and had a two month window to find a job or be out on the streets. My kids were in elementary school and didn't understand why I no longer worked at the church. Our pastor had said, "make it sound like it was your idea," and he would help me. I have said many times I would not take for the experience of praying beside my Mom & Dad's bed, telling God that we didn't know what we were going to do, but confessing our need of Him. To remember my parent's prayers as my wife and I knelt in prayer with them was worth the pain. Looking back I see how God took care of us. We never missed a paycheck. God moved us into a dream job and really gave us "beauty for ashes." One interesting way that God's glory showed through the valley of suffering... My Dad was asked by his church to be the chair of the Prayer committee. He signed up to attend a special prayer conference. He is a real man's man. Likes to hunt and fish, WWII vet, can fix things, etc. I guess that's why he didn't recogninze the name Evelyn Christenson. "What happens When Women Pray." By the time he gets to the conference and realizes that he is the ONLY man in attendance it's too late. The conference is really good and he is almost beginning to be comfortable among all the ladies when the leader announces they are going to have a "prayer experience." He was thinking of making a break for the door, but too late. He has a terrible attitude. This will never work... I don't know any of these ladies... nothing in common. It's awkward and uncomfortable. The directions are to turn around and introduce yourself to the person behind you and pray together. As the woman turns, she has tears in her eyes. She starts... "You won't understand. I'm not sure I can even talk about this to anyone, let alone a stranger. I am so angry. I am mad at God! I am so worried and upset... You see, I have a son who is a minister, and his pastor has all the power to hire and fire, and he just fired my son, and I am so worried about my daughter-in-law and my grandkids..." After awhile she drys her tears and apoligizes for unburdening herself. Again she says she is sure that he must think she's crazy. How could he understand... My Dad then begins to share, "I have a son. His pastor has all the power... He has just been fired." They had church right there in that meeting! God is in control! Hang on and trust God. We're praying for you. TA in MS
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 12:13:50 PM
Many of us could share our stories of how we left with our heads down and sadness in our hearts after a confusing dismissal. I, on the other hand, got up on my hind legs when the Sr. Pastor told me he wanted my resignation. He had already put the wheels in motion with the governing body of our denomination. He had already informed the Personnel Committee of our church what he intended to have happen. Long story short, it turned out he left and I stayed. The church learned through all this that sometimes the person blamed for the trouble isn't necessarily the one who is causing it. And I learned a thing or two about assertiveness and defending myself from injustices when I can.
Mountaintop: feeling called to that church and that my call was affirmed by both God and the congregation.
Valley: knowing that there was someone working against me out there, plotting; also keeping up the work load while experiencing the power of God and the love of God's people.
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 12:26:03 PM
Dear Disturbed I could say, "been there, done that," but rather need to say, you are in my prayers, and share with you what my mom at the age of 9 heard as she listened to the hammering of her mother's casket in the living room of the Methodist parsonnage where she lived. She asked, "who is going to take care of me, now?" As clear as she had learned it anong the worshipping congregation, she heard, "Be not dismayed whate're be tide, God will take care of you!" So I add, "Beneath God's wings of love abide, God will take care of you!"
Shalom
bammamma
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 12:34:31 PM
Lay Pastor: Scripture is not clear who Jesus was addressing, so no one knows.
Sally
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 1:01:06 PM
Earlier in the week, someone made the comment to the effect, "we want the mountaintop experience without the labor of climbing up there."
It put me in mind of the climb. It's not mowing the chuirch lawn, or being in the UMW, or visiting the sick. It's practicing our spiritual disciplines (come Wednesday we'll be talking about piety - the whole thrust of Lent) and working hard on them. That climb can be labor-intensive sometimes and it means that our reward might not be all that comfortable.
This is where Disturbed Pastor's question and DPS'ers many responses has come into play. Where is God? Can we recognize God's love when it comes to us in a painful way? (rhetorical questions, y'all) I think it's safe to say that most pastors take a few lumps in their tenure. Yet - it's difficult to say for certain whether the taking of the lumps or the prayer and support we offer is the mountain. We are promised that valleys will be exalted and hills made low! Perhaps there's not as much difference between mountains and valleys as we think.
I doubt Jesus was smiling from ear to ear on Calvary. Scripture indicates quite the opposite.
Our mountaintop experiences might mean grief, ridicule, persecution (recall last week's pericope), for those are the ones who are called blessed. Perhaps that's the labor of climbing and being on the mountain.
From the faithless and perverse Sally in GA
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 3:01:30 PM
I'm late in getting down to the real work of sermonizing, but have visited several times through the week. So much wealth of thought here this week. My sermon this week is "Changing Faces" as I focus on the changes that occur in our lives when we take the time to reall LISTEN for God's voice -- just as Jesus' face changed as he was praying. As it happens, I am baptizing two small children and receiving their parents (the wife as a transfer and the husband on profession of faith) into membership this Sunday. For the husband this is marks a momentous change in his life and he is very excited about it. This Sunday is certainly about "changing faces/lives" for him.
My heart goes out to Tammy and her family and to Disturbed as they struggle through very difficult times in their lives.
Robbie in KS
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 5:31:10 PM
First, I just want to say thank you to all who post here. More often then not, I'm here each week to benefit from the discussion and occasionally pick up some helpful ideas or different perspectives on a particular passage. I've not posted much lately, but it's wonderful to come here and help jump-start the creative process. So, again, thanks to ALL who take part in these forums. I almost always write a draft version of my sermon on Saturday mornings/afternoons. This week I've written early (Friday), because tomorrow is my birthday, and I'm trying to free up the day for some family activities. It puts me a little outside of my usual rhythm, and I really struggled for a time today. My first take simply was not jelling at all, and I had to abandon most of it, and start from scratch at mid-afternoon today. It hasn't been fun! Anyway, I'm posting what I've come up with below. I can't decide if it's OK or if it's really just crap! So if you have any comments/criticism, feel free to share your reaction. Obviously, I can still mess with this thing as the Spirit leads -- if it needs messed with! Peace, Dave K. in West Ohio
TEXT: Luke 9:28-36 TITLE: "The Shining"
Who is Jesus? That is the main question that is dealt with in the ninth chapter of the Gospel of Luke. It also is the central question for each of us, living in the here and now. Who is Jesus? And what does he have to do with our lives?
King Herod wanted to know. At the beginning of Luke 9, Jesus sends his 12 disciples out on on their own to preach the Kingdom of God and heal the sick, and they did just that. Herod got wind of it, and wanted to know what the heck was going on. Some were saying that John the Baptist had been raised from the dead, and others that Elijah had appeared, and still others that one of the prophets of long ago had come back to life. But Herod knew better. After all, he said, "I beheaded John. Who, then, is this I hear such things about?"
As the story continues in Luke 9, there comes another day when Jesus is praying in private and his disciples are with him, and he asks them, "Who do the crowds say I am?" Again, the names of John the Baptist, Elijah and others are mentioned, but Jesus quickly brushs that aside, and asks point blank: "But what about you? Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter, in one of his better moments, immediately gives the right answer: "The Christ of God." In other words, Jesus is the Messiah, the Annointed One -- chosen to redeem and restore Israel to greatness.
Perhaps most striking of all is the pronouncement that comes in today's lesson from Luke 9, when Jesus and three of his disciples -- Peter, James and John -- ascend a mountain in order to get alone for prayer. Whenever you see a mountain referred to in scripture, it's just about always an indication of the presence of God. So it was in ancient times when Moses climbed Mt. Sinai to encounter God, and receive the Ten Commandments for the Israelite people. And so it was for Jesus, who intuitively went off to the mountains when he wanted to be close to his Father. On this astonishing day -- up on the mountain -- these men would be surrounded in a cloud, another sign of the Holy One's presence. Then they heard it -- the voice of God coming from the divine cloud, and stating clearly, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."
"Transfiguration" is the name given to what happens to Jesus on that mountaintop when he goes up there to pray, accompanied by his three disciples. Don't be intimidated by the fancy word. All "transfiguration" means is a change in form or appearance. It just so happens that in the case of the Transfiguration of Jesus, the change is a very dramatic one -- a change which exalts and glorifies His very being. As in Matthew and Mark, the Gospel of Luke presents the transfiguration as a bridge between the public ministry of Jesus, and his Passion. After the transfiguration, Jesus sets his face to go to Jerusalem and the cross. It seems we have reached a turning point in the earthly life of Jesus Christ, and his disciples. For Jesus, there is no turning back.
What happens on that mountain is very much a mystery to us -- the whole idea is kind of mind-boggling! We know the appearance of the face of Jesus changed -- and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. And not only that, but two great heroes of Israelite history -- Moses and Elijah, suddenly appear in their own glorious form, talking with Jesus. God the Father brings about this supernatural change, and according to Luke, it happens as Jesus was praying.
Don't underestimate the power of prayer! If the very Son of God need to pray to his Father on a regular basis to receive power for living, then perhaps we also need to set aside quiet time for prayer each day. Prayer can and does change things. It will change us.
Rev. John Keeny, our United Methodist district superintendent, speaks of ways in which many of us can be transfigured. (Incidentally, John will be with us to preach the evening of Sunday, March 14, when Union Chapel hosts our cluster for the Lenten Worship Series.) John writes that one day last week he listened as one of the pastors in our district went "on and on" about his wonderful grandson. "When he came up for air," John writes, "I interjected, 'You ought to see yourself! You are absolutely radiant.' He had a glow about him that was more shiny than anything one could buy at Bath and Body Works!"
This kind of transfiguration probably happens more often than we realize. Think of the blushing bride, the glow of an expectant mother, the beaming father of the newborn, the radiant grandparent, and so on. John Keeny says he also has seen it in the luminous face of a preacher -- a fellow named Jesse Rubio. Jesse is the pastor for the Hispanic ministry now occupying the old Trinity United Methodist Church building on the east side of Dayton. John says that when Jesse Rubio talks to him about Jesus, his face simply shines. Rev. Keeny says thinking of such images is as close as he can come to understanding what happened at Jesus' transfiguration. John writes, "The power and energy of God was so strong within Jesus that it burst out ... beyond his physical limitations." It's as if God gave Jesus a foretaste of the glory to come with his resurrection. That experience of glory no doubt would sustain Jesus in the coming days "that would lead him through the valley of humiliation, death, and darkness."
Again, the Transfiguration is a turning point for Jesus Christ. His destiny is the topic Jesus speaks of with Moses and Elijah on that misty mountain. Luke reports they talked about the pending "departure" of Jesus, "which he was to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem." What a sight it was for Peter, James and John -- the inner circle of the Twelve disciples, here granted the privilege of joining Jesus on this mountain retreat. They are given nothing less than a glimpse of the glory of God, shining forth from the Son of God. It is a peek at the great reality that lies just beyond their everyday lives -- and ours. And to think, the three disciples almost missed the whole thing. All three of them were very sleepy, according to Luke. While Jesus prayed, they were barely able to keep their eyes open -- until they were finally shocked into alertness by the sight of Jesus transfigured. In some ways, this scene kind of foreshadows what will happen in the Garden of Gethsemane on the night of the Last Supper, when Jesus went off to pray, and his disciples got drowsy while waiting for him. "Could you not stay awake for even one hour?" he asked them.
But on this occasion, the disciples did manage to stay awake, and they were awed by the change in Jesus, and also by the appearance of Moses and Elijah. Peter -- now eager to help -- starts babbling about putting up three shelters, one each for Jesus, Moses and Elijah. (The Gospel writer tells us in parentheses that Peter was so excited and amazed he didn't really know what he was talking about.) Then, before Jesus can respond, the voice from the cloud interrupts, with the staggering message: "This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him."
As strange and mysterious as this entire story is in some ways, the message of God's Word could not be any more clear. Jesus is the Son of God -- and God the Father commands us to listen to Jesus. We're not called to humor Jesus. We're not called to pay lip service to following Jesus. We're called to listen to Jesus in whom the glory of God -- the dazzling wonder of the Divine -- is fully revealed on the mountain. So the message is this -- Jesus is Lord, and we better listen to Him. Because the meaning of our entire lives depends upon it. Indeed, the state of our souls -- now and forever --depends upon it. It's kind of like my friend Stan Ellingson, the broadcaster on WFCJ, likes to say at the end of his program every afternoon: "If you meet me and forget about me, you've lost nothing. But if you meet Jesus Christ and forget about Him, you've lost everything."
The culture changes. The world around us changes. But Jesus and the Truth of the Gospel are un-changing. Who is Jesus? He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. His Truth shines as brightly now as ever. It is a genuine beacon of hope, in a dark and troubled world.
We love the mountaintop experiences, don't we? We love the spiritual highs that occasionally come our way as followers of Jesus Christ. But the truth is we have to live our lives in the valleys. We can't stay up on those mountains, anymore than Jesus and those three disciples could stay on the mountain. You see, we are called to listen to Jesus, but Jesus himself was called to listen to the Father . . . and the Father told Jesus that he had a mission to complete in Jerusalem.
So like Peter and the boys, we have got to come down off the mountain, and here's what I believe we're called to do -- we're called to shine in the valleys of life ... in the everyday routine of our lives, we are called to shine for Jesus Christ. And we can do this amazing thing, too. With all our many weaknesses, foibles, and shortcomings, we, too, can be transfigured -- not by our own power -- but by the power of Almighty God.
The Apostle Paul alludes to this, writing in 2 Corinthians 3:18 -- "We, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." Now in this transfiguration that we experience, our faces may or may not be changed. Our clothes may or may not turn dazzling white, as bright as a flash of lightning (I suspect for most of us that will not be the case.) But it's our hearts and our minds that -- above all -- can and will be changed by the experience of being born to new life in the Spirit. Once that eternal life is born within us, it will be very difficult to stop that shining that comes forth from our souls -- though God knows the world and the devil will try. You see, "the Light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it." (John 1:5)
We don't have to cooperate with the forces of darkness. Because we have the Resurrection Power of Jesus living in us now, and that power within us calls us to live in victory. The Father says we are to listen to his Son . . . we are to listen to him. And so let us listen to this message He passed along to his followers, in a sermon He gave on another mountain, in Matthew 5:
"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on a stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (Matt. 5:14-16) Whether we are basking in the glory of the mountaintop, or dwelling in the humdrum and sometimes painful reality of the valley, we are called to shine for Christ. Let's hold onto our Power Source . . . and let's go light our world for God. Amen.
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 6:26:06 PM
So Moses did make it to the Promised Land. Doug in Va
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 7:09:14 PM
I see a connection between the mountain top experience and the disciples coming back down to the reality of everyday life and the difficulties so many posters have had with the church assignments. I would prefer to stay up there, sharing the tents with moses and Elijah and Jesus, that deal with what I know about in the churches and in life.
BUT WE MUST COME DOWN and face what is before us. It is painful. I just resigned from one of the churches I was appointed to serve. I did not want to take this action, however, I needed to get out from the pain.
I am also dealing with sexual misconduct in another location. The pain there is terrible. Sometimes I feel as if I can help while at other times I sense I add to the problems. In the text it is finally Jesus who intervenes and heals. There is a lesson here! I do what I can for as long as I can in all the places I can, the rest is up to God-in-Christ.
A W-G rocky coast Me.
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 9:26:38 PM
I'm not preaching now, but I still check out these discussions for insight and post on occasion. Thanks to all of you.
I have found that I don't always recognize my mountaintop experiences while they're happening - the experience is greater than my understanding of the experience. It is only later that I begin to understand what has truly happened.
What is a mountaintop experience? It's one where I have truly experienced the transforming power of Jesus Christ. Yes, I experienced Jesus Christ during my Walk to Emmaus. I have experienced Jesus Christ through answered prayers. I have experienced Jesus Christ during other peak times.
But...I have found that the most transforming times for me have been in the valleys. Like the father with the demon possessed son. Like the disciples with egg on their faces because they could not, in their own strength, perform a healing miracle. Like when my mother suffered from lymphoma, and then leukemia.
My title? "When Your Mountaintops are Valleys" because it is in weakness that we truly experience Jesus Christ. It was in the father's helplessness that he experienced Christ. It was in the son's infirmity that he experienced Christ. It was in the disciples' weakness that they experienced Christ.
Jesus transforms our experiences - tragedy into triumph, sickness into healing, loss into understanding. But more than our experiences, Jesus transforms us - sinners into saints, death into life.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted...
Ed in GA
Date: 2/20/2004
Time: 10:41:58 PM
I am not sure where this illustration comes from, but it's a good one: "George Adam Smith tells the story of how he was once climbing the Weiss horn above the Zermatt Valley in Switzerland with two guides on a stormy day. They made the ascent on the sheltered side and finally reached the top. As they walked to the very point of the peak, Smith felt exhilarated by the thought of the view he was about to see. He stood tall to take it all in and was nearly blown away by a mighty gust of wind! His guide caught hold of him as he began to fall, pulled him down from his stretched out height and said, “On your knees, sir! You are safe here only on your knees!”
California Preachin'
Date: 2/21/2004
Time: 8:08:31 AM
I sense a passion from the contributions this week. May we all be passionate about preaching this pericope. May we all be passionate about WANTING to pray. May we share that passion with our congregations. May we all be transfigured as we preach tomorrow! May our people be transfigured by their encounter with the living word. Amen
Date: 2/21/2004
Time: 3:34:44 PM
A Sunday school teacher once asked her class where they thought God lived. One little girl raised her hand and said, “I think God lives in the sky, because that is where heaven is.” “That’s good!” said the teacher. Another little boy answered, saying rather piously, “God lives in each of our hearts!” “That’s very good,” replied the teacher.
When she asked the same question again, little Johnny, who was very outspoken, was the only one who raised his hand. Quietly dreading his answer, the teacher queried, “And where do you think God lives, Johnny?” “In my bathroom,” he responded. Almost afraid to ask, the teacher said, “In your bathroom?”
Yes, in my bathroom! Every morning my father beats on the bathroom door and screams, “GOD, ARE YOU STILL IN THERE?”
Now you know where God is :)
Jude in Wash
P.S. Thanks for the posts....I DO see the connection between the Mountain HIgh and the Valley So Deep..and in fact that is my sermon title....the connection being to the Kingdom of God....that is where God really is.....we see him in our mountain top experiences....which fuels us to go down in the valleys with the light of Christ within.....to carry out the ministries God has given to us.
Peace and blessings
Date: 2/21/2004
Time: 6:01:35 PM
for Eric and all,
As usual, it's late on Saturday -- I've never been able to strike a balance between good preparation and staying open to "late-breaking" issues!
The Invitation of Communion which has been variously quoted above, and cited by Eric as written by Cranmer, is more likely the result of Cranmer's work as a compiler than as an author.
It is certainly true that the Invitation first appeared, to my knowledge, in what we now call the First Edwardian Book of Common Prayer, 1549, and Cranmer certainly did pen much of his own prose, but Shepherd suggests that this Invitation was likely drawn, at least in part, from other sources of the day.
A thought about vision, and eye glasses, and the Transfiguration -- the Episcopal Lectionary calls for 1 Cor 13 as the New Testament Lesson, from when comes, "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face ..."
Peace be to all,
Jim
Date: 2/21/2004
Time: 6:29:36 PM
In the light of Tammy's and AR Pastor's postings, I wonder if the Transfiguration is about seeing The Light at the end of the tunnel. LF
Date: 2/21/2004
Time: 7:32:23 PM
JR in TX
His name is Tim Zingale.
http://www.sermoncentral.com/contributor_profile.asp?ContributorID=133
Try just copying what text you want to clipboard (control - C) and pasting it (control - v) into your word processor.
JG in WI
Date: 2/21/2004
Time: 10:16:32 PM
Jude in Wash,
Thank you for your wonderful post about the little boy who announced that God lives in the bathroom. I long ago decided that the Holy Spirit lives in my bath tub, because that is where I get my best sermon ideas! I wonder where the third member of the Trinity lives? In the sink, perhaps?
Thank you for the smiles on this late Saturday night sermon rush.
Peace and blessings, California Preachin'
Date: 2/22/2004
Time: 4:37:45 AM
Just think had I only taken a bubble bath this sermon would have been born earlier in the week! Thanks to all who have posted and all who sit at the screen and are praying with passion! nancy-Wi
Date: 3/4/2004
Time: 7:13:41 PM
i need to know the actuall height of the mountian sinai